Question about maneuvers (new to the Crusader)

[prospero63]

Hello, I'm considering playing a Crusader in a new campaign. It's starting off as 1st level. My understanding is that I start off with 5 maneuvers known. As you gain levels, you learn more maneuvers (1 new maneuver every odd level). You can also swap out 1 old maneuver for 1 new maneuver starting at 4th level and every even level after that. Is there any reason at 5th level to NOT fill up all your maneuvers known? Looking at it, if you fill up with 5 1st level maneuvers it seems that when you get 2nd level maneuvers (at 3rd level) you can only pick 1 of them. I can't help but think it might make sense to, rather than take a maneuver you aren't terribly interested in, to hold onto the slot for when you gain a level to use it for something that might be better.

So my question is essentially does it make sense to hold onto maneuver slots in this manner? For that matter, is that even possible or if you have 5 maneuvers known, do you have to know 5, end of story. Thanks!

[phaedrusxy]

I don't think you can "hold on" to maneuvers known. You have to choose them when they become available. So it's basically a moot point.

However... if you multiclass, you can start out with higher level maneuvers known at the cost of your higher level maneuvers. It's a toss-up as to whether it is worth it.

For example, a Fighter 2/Barbarian2/Crusader 1 (taking his first crusader level at 5th) could have all five of his maneuvers known be 2nd level, if he wanted. He's still stuck with a 1st level stance, though. If he went X6/Crusader 2, he could pick up a 3rd level stance (say... Thicket of Blades) with his 2nd crusader level, though, which IIRC is actually as fast or faster than a single-classed crusader can get that stance.

[prospero63]

OK, cool. Yeah, I wasn't sure if you could hold on to them similar to not spending skill points or taking a feat or if you have to fill them all up. Thanks!

[Rebel7284]

OK, cool. Yeah, I wasn't sure if you could hold on to them similar to not spending skill points or taking a feat or if you have to fill them all up. Thanks!

For the record, you're not allowed to do either of those things either.

[prospero63]

That may be a house rule. Same players and campaigns for over a decade, so holding onto skill points or not immediately taking feats is pretty par for the course. At this point, it's become "normal".

[prospero63]

For the record, you're not allowed to do either of those things either.

It's neither here nor there for my original question, but you caused me to go look it up because we've done it so long in my game group I wasn't for sure where it came from. With regards to skills, whether a house rule or an interpretation, I believe in our game the key is the difference between acquiring skills at 1st level vs. other levels. The section on acquiring skills at 1st level clearly states "Spend all your skill points. You can't save them to spend later". The section on skills at higher levels doesn't have that line. Again, not sure if the DM just decided to house rule it or interpret it that way (but historically he's been very pedantic about where something is or isn't included).

With regards to feats, I can't find anything that says you have to take a feat immediately. In our cases, a "held" feat at 3rd level for example is still a 3rd level feat. No using it for epic or to double up some funky prereq. It's more in the category of "I don't know what the heck to take yet". Again though, could be 100% house rule (I'm not the DM, I just live by his rules...)

Thanks!

[Alexei]

You might prefer to edit your posts instead of having 4 in succesion...

About crusader, as the Handbooks -written by people with far more experience than me- don't list this trick, which would be a fairly easy one, I would take it means you must choose maneuvers in the same level they are granted, without delaying them to get an increased level maneuver-stance

[prospero63]

You might prefer to edit your posts instead of having 4 in succesion...

About crusader, as the Handbooks -written by people with far more experience than me- don't list this trick, which would be a fairly easy one, I would take it means you must choose maneuvers in the same level they are granted, without delaying them to get an increased level maneuver-stance

Yeah, I was trying to figure out how to delete that one post. Oh well. Thanks!

[Sinfire Titan]

There has never been an official ruling on the issue, but there has been a FAQ post about it. While the FAQ is most certainly not RAW, this is one of the times where it is reasonable to listen to the FAQ.


BTW, the easiest way to delete a post is to report it.

[prospero63]

There has never been an official ruling on the issue, but there has been a FAQ post about it. While the FAQ is most certainly not RAW, this is one of the times where it is reasonable to listen to the FAQ.


BTW, the easiest way to delete a post is to report it.

Sounds good. BTW, thanks for your work on the handbook. I've been pouring over it (in fact, it's open in the next tab). It's been a *long* time since I've played a completely new class like this, so the handbook has been invaluable in helping to try to understand the class, how it functions, etc. It may not be the most optimum build (but it will roleplay really well I think) but I'm probably going to wind up Paladin 4 then switching to Crusader to finish it off. Provided we don't get TPK'd first. :-)

[PlzBreakMyCampaign]

While the FAQ is most certainly not RAW, this is one of the times where it is reasonable to listen to the FAQ.

Is it reasonable to say it consists of rules, only when those rules are right/consistent?

I never understood the flame wars over the FAQ. Either something was clearly useful, or clearly not.

[prospero63]

Well, speaking only for myself the info in this thread, the FAQ and the handbooks was all of value in helping to gain an understanding of how I think the maneuvers, etc. work. I know my DM uses the FAQ's as a frame of reference and data point, but ultimately he decides how something works.

Next task, trying to wrap my brain around the way maneuvers are granted. 

[phaedrusxy]

Well, speaking only for myself the info in this thread, the FAQ and the handbooks was all of value in helping to gain an understanding of how I think the maneuvers, etc. work. I know my DM uses the FAQ's as a frame of reference and data point, but ultimately he decides how something works.

Next task, trying to wrap my brain around the way maneuvers are granted. 

It's a lot easier to use cards for the crusader. There are some you can download and print on the WotC website.

[Vicerious]

The best explanation of the crusader's readied/granted/expended system is the sidebar on page 38 of the Tome of Battle.  Using cards like phaedrus suggests is a great idea.

[prospero63]

Excellent info! Our game is run out of maptool. I'm going to start with the card idea like y'all mention and see if I can write something up that will programatically handle it in maptool or excel. Thanks a bunch to everyone for their feedback and advice.

[Sinfire Titan]

I haven't updated it yet, but please ask your DM to look into the unofficial errata for the Bo9S.

WotC really dropped the ball, so we did our best to pick up the slack.

[prospero63]

Will do. Thanks!

[Endarire]

This is how I explain things.

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Crusader Maneuvers Known: As a Crusader1, you begin with knowledge of 5 maneuvers from your allowed disciplines.  (See the above chart.)  You might know additional maneuvers or maneuvers from other disciplines by some other means, such as the Martial Study feat, a maneuver-granting item, or independent research.
   Track the maneuvers you know from each class separately.  (Different color index cards are typically used.)  You may only ready one copy of each maneuver, regardless of how many classes you have.  For example, a Warblade/Crusader could only ready one copy of White Raven Tactics, as either a Warblade or Crusader. but could know it as a Warblade and a Crusader.
   Once you know a maneuver, you must ready it before you can use it.  The specific number of readied maneuvers is on the above chart.  (If you somehow know so many maneuvers that you can’t learn any more Crusader maneuvers from your allowed disciplines, talk to your GM as to what to do.  He’ll probably have you rearrange your other maneuvers so you can know and ready the appropriate number as a Crusader.)
   Maneuvers are extraordinary abilities unless noted in the maneuver’s description.  (Maneuvers that aren’t extraordinary abilities are supernatural abilities.  Thus, using maneuvers doesn’t provoke attacks of opportunity nor check metaphysical resistance unless the maneuver specifically says so.
   Supernatural maneuvers are marked with a (Su) tag after the name, such as Shadow Garrote (Su) from the Shadow Hand discipline.
   At higher levels, you learn other maneuvers as shown on The Crusader chart above.

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You can ready 5 maneuvers you know at Crusader1.  As you gain Crusader levels, you will have more maneuvers known than you can ready.  Thus, you must choose which maneuvers to ready.  Regardless, you must always ready your allowed number of Crusader maneuvers.  (If you somehow have too few Crusader maneuvers that you can’t ready all of them according to the above chart, talk to your GM as to what to do.  He’ll probably have you rearrange your other maneuvers so you can know and ready the appropriate number as a Crusader.)
   You can ready maneuvers by praying or meditating for 5 minutes.  The maneuvers you choose are readied until you spend the time to change them.  You need not sleep nor rest any great period of time to ready your maneuvers, unlike spellcasters who must rest or sleep for 8 hours to recover their spells.
   You begin a fight with all your readied maneuvers unexpended, regardless of how many times you used them since you readied them.  Each readied maneuver can only be used once per 5 minutes unless it is refreshed, as described below.

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Crusaders are unique among martial adepts.  They rely on flashes of insight, divine inspiration, and lots of luck.  As such, your maneuvers are randomly granted to you.
   Crusader maneuvers are best represented by a deck of index cards with the maneuver’s name or full description printed on one side.  Recovering Crusader maneuvers will be explained assuming you have a deck of maneuver cards.
   Look on the above chart under the column for maneuvers readied and (granted).  Your hand size of your known Crusader must be this big [5 initially].  You can’t ready less or more than this number.     When initiative is rolled, shuffle the deck.  Draw the number of cards in (parentheses) [2 initially] and place them face up.  These maneuver cards you drew have been granted to you.  Place the others face down.  These face-down cards are withheld.
   Each round at the start of your turn, draw another face down card and add it to your hand, face up.  This card is also a (granted) maneuver.  Continue doing this.  If at the start of your turn you have no more face down cards to draw, shuffle all your Crusader maneuver cards for the maneuvers you had readied and draw your number of granted maneuvers [2 initially].
   When you initiate a Crusader maneuver, turn the card sideways- sometimes called “tapping” it- but keep it face up so you know which cards you may draw.
   Crusader maneuvers are “use ‘em or lose ‘em.”  A multiclass martial adept, like a Crusader/Warblade, typically use his Crusader maneuvers at the most convenient times and saves his other maneuvers for when his desired Crusader maneuvers are withheld.
   A Crusader has more maneuvers readied [a bigger hand size] and (granted) [drawn initially] at the Crusader levels described on the above chart.  For example, a Crusader10 has “6 (3)” in the Maneuvers Readied column.  This means that Crusader has a hand size of 6 and draws 3 initially.  If he had the feat Extra Granted Maneuver, his hand size would be 6 and he would draw 4 initially.
   Crusaders can use and refresh their maneuvers outside of combat.  Unless time is critical, assume all readied Crusader maneuvers are granted and can be used as desired.  If time is critical, assume Crusader maneuvers work as if in a fight.