Help with a custom race

[snoosnaa]

My friend created his own race that I personally vetoed, but was outvoted on. 

Basically, it is a large sized creature with the following ability adjustments, and is LA +3

str +10
dex +8
con +16
int -15
wis -15
cha -15

There are no special abilities or any other bonuses.

Is this fair?  The creator claims it should be LA +2 based on what the book says, as he took a troll and modified it.  I feel like it is silly to use such high numbers, even if some of them are negative.  Of course I could just damage his int or wis or something in battles(I am the DM).

If it is fair, what kind of character options would be recomended? 

He created the race to be used as a tandem character with my other friend who rides on his back and fires arrows and spells as a kobold.  I know that certain races are stronger for certain classes, but I feel like making a race just for a specific character is cheesy.

Also, if this is the wrong place for this post please let me know.

[Alexei]

A perfect target for INT damage...
How did it get "outvetoed"? You are the DM, balance falls to you, doesn't it?

I don't see the -15 balanced even a little, as the rolls can't be less than 3... so if you use point buy and he dumps the three stats he is only at -5 for each, so I'd bump the LA even more, because I could put "-50 int" in a template and say "hey this gives me -12 LA for my barbarian, oh just remember, it can't be lowered to less than 3" 

Use the template yourself and make some charger opponents based on it, then murder the character with them and tell him his race has gone extinct because it upset the gods of ubercharging or whatever 

[Ithamar]

Look at the Half-Ogre in Races of Destiny.  It is Large size, +2 LA, and gets:

STR +6
DEX -2
CON +2
INT -2
WIS +0
CHA -2

Very playable (or at least as playable as any LA race can be).  Tell your player / friend to bring his creation in line with those stats.

What type is the homemade creature:  Giant, Monstrous Humanoid, Outsider?  That can affect LA as well.

I'd say make the mental stats like -2 or -4, and keep it +3 LA.  Or, if he wants +2 LA, still reduce the mental stat penalties, but make DEX & CON much lower.

[Rebel7284]

Amusingly, RAW, Half Minotaur on any +Str/+Con base class has similar/better stats for LA +1.

But the half minotaur is pretty unbalanced.

[Maat Mons]

You determine a race's ability adjustments by taking an average specimen and subtracting 10 from any even scores and 11 from any odd scores.  So, having an odd number as an ability adjustments should be impossible.  Since a creature can't have an ability score less than 1 (except temporarily, due to damage or drain), penalties greater than -10 should be impossible.  Since any race with an average int below 3 isn't allowed for players, an int penalty greater than -8 should be impossible for a player race. 

I'm going to consider the ability adjustments to be +10 str, +8 dex, +16 con, -8 int, -10 wis, -10 cha. 

To compare this race to other races published by Wizards, lets look at half-ogre (Races of Destiny, p97) and Lolth-touched (Monster Manual IV, p92).  Half-ogre is a base race that is large and gets +6 str, -2 dex, +2 con, -2 int, -2 cha for +2 LA.  Lolth-touched is a template that gives +6 str, +6 con for +1 LA.  That comes out to large size and +12 str, -2 dex, +8 con, -2 int, -2 cha for +3 LA. 

So, relative to that, this race gets -2 str, +10 dex, +8 con, -6 int, -10 wis, -8 cha.  I don't particularly object to giving a bonus to con for a penalty to a couple of mental ability scores.  Con isn't a very problematic ability score. 

I object to the substantial bonus to dex on a large creature on thematic grounds.  I'd also be weary of allowing such a large penalty to wis.  He's probably going to take classes with a poor will save.  Unless he takes steadfast determination (Player's Handbook II, p83), he'll probably need to roll a 20 to make any will save. 

Edit: Monster Manual has a table on page 296 that gives guidelines on ability score ranges for custom creatures.  For a large creature, the strength adjustment should be between +8 and +16, the dexterity adjustment should be between -2 and +6, and the constitution adjustment should be between +0 and +12. 

[SneeR]

If you want to really argue this with the other players, then you need to bring up the fact that an average creature has nothing but 10 and 11s as per the Monster Manual's stat arrays (and there are no odd-numbered ability mods as Maat Mons said). That would mean that the average member of his race would have 0 mental faculties. Let's look at what this means in game terms:

A character with Intelligence, Wisdom, or Charisma 0 is unconscious.

Well, that's pretty straightforward.

That means that nearly the entirety of his race is in a natural state of perpetual unconsciousness. They have the racial trait of "In a Coma." Good luck with natural selection there. They'd all be coup-de-graced to save on space, seeing as they are Large.

Ever tried to make a baby while you and your mate are unconscious? 

So that means this race survives entirely on other races putting Cloaks of Charisma, Headbands of Intellect, and Periapts of Wisdom +6 on them so they can get up just long enough to screw like animals (because they are not capable of conscious thought without and get pregnant.

Sounds viable to me. 

[PlzBreakMyCampaign]

The 16 is very high.

As far as playability goes LA+2 seems worth it and LA+3 might still be worth it. Those penalties are pretty narly.

[muktidata]

I could consider a custom race for flavor purposes, likely a reflavored version of something in existance, but that stinks of a player wanting stupid stat boosts for an unoptimized character. The funny thing about the players that request this kind of junk and make cases for it, is that they think they are crossing some threshhold of min-maxing with the character, when in reality it's underpowered. There are several ways you could deal with that, but it's up to you. The way I see it:

1) Show him established WotC races that accomplish similar stat-lines.
2) Kill the character via its glaring weaknesses.
3) Tell him to suck it up. If he wants to play a Troll, enjoy the Troll HD.

[snoosnaa]

Thanks for all the replies.

We play in a created world with 3 continents, each run by a different DM.  When some kind of custom rule comes up, we vote.  That is how I got overruled.  Thanks again.

[Yirrare]

There is always the cruel approach...
Advise him against the race, and explain it's flaws. If he choose to play it anyway, just dominate him and use him to kill (or just maim) everyone. 

I would advise you to look for a more diplomatic approach. But if he insists, ask if you can run a playtest with them (so you, as DM, can balance the upcoming sessions) and do as above. Since it's just a test, noone is dead for real. But the experience should make him rethink his position (if reasoning didn't already).

You have to be cruel to be kind. 
/Yirrare

[RobbyPants]

Basically, it is a large sized creature with the following ability adjustments, and is LA +3

str +10
dex +8
con +16
int -15
wis -15
cha -15

There are no special abilities or any other bonuses.

Is this fair?

No, not in the least. LA is a terrible idea to begin with, and it's next to impossible to balance HD loss with bonuses to stats. Also, a bonus to a stat is pretty much always worth more than a comparable penalty elsewhere (with the exception of Con). All penalties do is limit the scope of what classes are playable. This race is basically an attempt to break the RNG in half and it should be disallowed on first principles.

That being said, the mental stat penalties are huge, and this guy would get one-shotted by anything that damages a mental ability score, and his Will saves would be abysmal between the -15 Wis penalty and losing 3 HD. He's literally behind half the RNG.

[widow]

That would not be something that I want to play for all the above mentioned reasons.  I don't think it is over powered so much as just ridiculous.  If you were overruled though, I would not worry about.  The very broken Anthropomorphic Baleen Whale is far better with a combined +20 to ability scores without major penalties, large size, and has 0LA and 3 mosterous human HD which give full BAB.  It gets even worse if you slap on Lolth/ Fury Favored template for another +6 to Str and Con for +1 LA.  My biggest fear would be if the player got himself an awaken animal spell cast on him.  It would certainly be worth the 2 animal HD added.

[Xanola]

int -15
wis -15
cha -15

Such high numbers give me pause, even if they ARE negative. that's not just one, but three stats in the garbage bin. Would the race be balanced? It could be argued that yes it would... Should such a race ever be playable? In my opinion, most definitely not. On a Roleplay lavel, with int and wis so low, you have a character who will be unlikely to know how to tie his shoes, and if he does know how to tie his shoes, will be unlikely to see any reason to do so (as per my understanding of Wis). If this request was put in anything I was running, I'd give it a resounding no... And if the player insisted, I doubt I'd have the willpower not to pick on that character's partcular weaknesses (and I'm generally a VERY unbiased DM)