Half-Fiend Dragon, Unhallow and Blasphemy

[ksbsnowowl]

Last night I was perusing the SRD brainstorming for the eventual 20th level campaign climax for my currently 9th level gestalt campaign.  I was looking at applying Half-Fiend to a Wyrm or Great Wyrm White Dragon, and I noticed something that would be quite horrific for the PC's.

A Half-Fiend Great Wyrm White Dragon is a CR 24 Outsider who gets a host of SLA's from Half-Fiend.  One of those is Blasphemy.  Anything with 10 fewer HD than your caster level dies intantly, no save.
SLA's from Half-Fiend use the creature's HD as their caster level.  A great wyrm white dragon has 36 HD, as a CR 24 creature.  Any 26th or lower party will automatically die, once per day.

That's quite the dirty little quirk in the rules.  The same holds true for most of the older dragons.  How would you handle this as a DM?

Secondly, a half-fiend of this stature gains Unhallow as a SLA.  Spell-Like Abilities have no material components.  A dragon such as that we are discussing gains sorcerer casting (in this case, as a 13th level sorcerer).  Unhallow allows you to tie spell effects to the unhallowed area; assuming the dragon could cast one of the spells on the limited list, is he able to unhallow and tie a spell to it for no cost?  I'm assuming yes.

[altpersona]

i lol'd a bit at the lvl -10 bit.

"Killed, paralyzed, weakened, dazed"

not only are you killed but you are paralyzed, weakened, dazed also.

[SorO_Lost]

i lol'd a bit at the lvl -10 bit.

"Killed, paralyzed, weakened, dazed"

not only are you killed but you are paralyzed, weakened, dazed also.

It's a safeguard that prevents the spell from being worthless should you encounter someone with Death Ward.

[sirpercival]

I'm pretty sure Blasphemy and the like are not affected by Death Ward.  They aren't Death spells, nor are they Death effects.  No descriptor.

[SorO_Lost]

I'm pretty sure Blasphemy and the like are not affected by Death Ward.  They aren't Death spells, nor are they Death effects.  No descriptor.

Nothing in the SRD is truly type cast as a "death attack", instead the rules on said effect envelop all other effects. Also, seriously, try reading the spell before talking about it. You wouldn't have even phrased your post like that if you had.

[kitep]

Secondly, a half-fiend of this stature gains Unhallow as a SLA.  Spell-Like Abilities have no material components.  A dragon such as that we are discussing gains sorcerer casting (in this case, as a 13th level sorcerer).  Unhallow allows you to tie spell effects to the unhallowed area; assuming the dragon could cast one of the spells on the limited list, is he able to unhallow and tie a spell to it for no cost?  I'm assuming yes.

I too would say yes.

Just noticed - you can only have 1 hallow in effect, but there doesn't seem to be anything against having both a hallow and unhallow in the same place.

[sirpercival]

I'm pretty sure Blasphemy and the like are not affected by Death Ward.  They aren't Death spells, nor are they Death effects.  No descriptor.

Nothing in the SRD is truly type cast as a "death attack", instead the rules on said effect envelop all other effects. Also, seriously, try reading the spell before talking about it. You wouldn't have even phrased your post like that if you had.

Oh SorO, you should know me better than that.  Of course I read the spell before I posted.  There are two things wrong with what you said.

1) There is indeed something in the SRD that's actually a death attack. It's the assassin class feature.  However, Death Ward doesn't protect you from that because it's not a spell or a magical death effect.  Here's an actual quote from Death Ward:

The subject is immune to all death spells, magical death effects, energy drain, and any negative energy effects.

2) Now, there ARE death spells in the SRD.   They have the [Death] descriptor.  In fact, there are 10:

Circle of Death
Death Knell
Destruction
Finger of Death
Power Word Kill
Slay Living
Symbol of Death
Symbol of Weakness
Undeath to Death
Wail of the Banshee

Death Ward protects you against those.  However, Blasphemy doesn't have the Death descriptor.  That's partly why the spell is considered broken -- in high-level play it's usually either banned or everyone has a contingent Silence going.

[SorO_Lost]

<snip>

I'm not sure how I could paint a more clear picture. I'm going to try through, with lots of bold underlining!

You are fixated on [Death] tagged spells, which is one aspect of protection Death Ward provides.

"The subject is immune to all death spells, magical death effects, energy drain, and any negative energy effects."

As you can seen. There is more to the spell than simple immunity to spells with the [Death] subtype. And it is this more than I am talking about.

A. The only "Death Attack" is an untyped none-magical Class Feature of the Assassin, yet there is a "Death Attack" entry that states every spell or special ability that outright kills falls under these rules that is clearly an entry not from any class ability. To assume they are one and the same is to not pay either of attention to them.

B. Immunity to "Death Effects" is a separate listed effect from immunity to death spells further indicating that there again, it is talking about something else.

And yes, that why I don't think you have read it. It's pretty obvious Death Ward protects against magical death attacks no matter what they are typed as so long as they are magical, because the spell says so. It's also pretty obvious that anything outright slays a target is a death attack, as the death attack entry says they are. Now there is a little discrepancy, the death attack entry states DW protects against it but DW says it only protects if it's magical, but that's a pretty simple specific trumps judgment. But either way, there is zero context for saying DW doesn't block Blasphemy's death effect. And given the fact that you've been houseruling nerfs, I don't see why you're making an issue of things when I'm talking about rules you've been omitting and not paying attention to that help out.

[sirpercival]

I was going to post about how you are grouping "attacks" and "spells" together which I think you can't necessarily do.

However, I did some more poking around and it seems other people agree with you.  So I'll conceded the point, though my final thought on the matter is this: what, exactly, is the point of the Death descriptor, if all of these other spells are death effects?  Are there things which protect you from [Death] spells and not things like Blasphemy?

Or was WotC just inconsistent in its terminology yet again?

[SorO_Lost]

Are there things which protect you from [Death] spells and not things like Blasphemy?

Or was WotC just inconsistent in its terminology yet again?

I think it's an under developed section of what were they thinking. Death Attacks was written to provide a rules on handling instant killing effects, whereas the [Death] tag was written to type cast a section of spells. So like [Fire], they could print caster level increases for them and such. Of course, caster level increases would normally only help SR so they never expanded on it.

By Blasphemy not having the tag it's lesser but still effectively kill you effects like Paralyze can still hit someone with Death Ward-like effects. Which is probably why the tag was left out, specially given the entries there as I pointed out form before, can't have that spell too weak you know...

[littha]

I am sure I have seen this exact argument played out at least 5 times... think it was Implosion last time rather than blasphemy though.

[midnight_v]

I seriously just came across somethign like this, I was tinkering with making a summonable avatar of cthulhu. I wanted to take a giant make it "half-fiend/Half ilithid" and  then I realized that blasphemy was on that list.
 I started looking around and came to the same conclusions as you Dictuum. 2 Things.
1. I reiterate that I do believe its "IS" allowed to tie spells at no cost. It is "quirky" as you say but... you're fighting an elder dragon... so well the gloves are off.

2. Contrarily... blasphemy. . . Blashpemy Juggle, Blasphemy Insta-gib, God this spell... *link darksouls face palm* Its a headache on the one hand I get that blasphemies are supposed to be hardcore darkspeak style effects. Its just too rocket taggy for me as a dm. I want the players do struggle or feel challenged... but I tend to stay away from things that feel like:
"Rocks fall" or "You die and you don't know why" etc...

[SorO_Lost]

I am sure I have seen this exact argument played out at least 5 times... think it was Implosion last time rather than blasphemy though.

Yeah apparently I pitched into a large argument without knowing. All well, I'll take them all on.

[ksbsnowowl]

So the consensus is that Death Ward prevents the killing effect, so high-level PC's better be good little Boy Scouts and "be prepared?"

[Bauglir]

Not that it matters, since all the lesser effects and their associated durations mean the PCs are effectively stunlocked long enough after a single casting for the dragon to full attack them all to death. But yes, that seems the conclusion.

[betrayor]

Wouldn't immunity to sonic prevent blasphemy  from working at all?

[ksbsnowowl]

Not that it matters, since all the lesser effects and their associated durations mean the PCs are effectively stunlocked long enough after a single casting for the dragon to full attack them all to death. But yes, that seems the conclusion.

Actually, funny story.  I was facing the PC's with a BBEG that they were not supposed to actually fight (he was going to come in and smack them down with a paralyzing blasphemy, then mull over what to do with them, and offer them a chance to explain themselves [thinking he'd turn them into his pawns]).  One of my PC's had Freedom of Movement running.  Sure, everyone else was paralyzed, but that annoyed the BBEG even more.

[sirpercival]

Wouldn't immunity to sonic prevent blasphemy  from working at all?

You mean immunity to sonic damage? No, it's not damage.  But Silence would prevent it.