Author Topic: Thoughts on Monster PC rules variants  (Read 4519 times)

Offline Libertad

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Thoughts on Monster PC rules variants
« on: June 15, 2012, 02:35:38 AM »
After creating ~12 Monster Classes for Oslecamo and perusing the Pathfinder SRD's rules on monster PCs, I got around to thinking how other iterations of D&D tried to balance monster player characters.  I prefer Oslecamo's way of doing things, but  I'm eager to find out how game designers handled this monumental task throughout the years and what can be learned from them.

I found an interesting post by a WotC user detailing the history.

1st Edition: Gary Gygax was originally not fond of monster PCs and wanted D&D to have primarily humanocentric settings.  He argued that monster PC in most settings would be unable to integrate into society because they're treated like pariahs and hunted down.

2nd Edition, Complete Book of Humanoids: You can play monstrous PCs, but they get disadvantages and penalties.  Don't know much about specifics.

3rd Edition: Savage Species introduced ECL for monsters, accounting for Racial Hit Die and Level Adjustment.  While a good idea in theory, in practice it resulted in weak and crippled monster PCs.

4th Edition: I don't have much experience here, but I think that the Monster Manual gave out lower-powered equivalents for certain monsters; they'd be more in line with dwarves, halflings, etc.  Some monsters such as Satyrs got PC equivalents in sourcebooks such as Heroes of the Feywild.  Also, Vampire is both a race and a class (Heroes of Shadow).

Midnight, 3rd Edition setting: Hand of Shadow introduced rules for playing the minions of Izrador (Sauron equivalent).  PCs with Level Adjustment can buy flaws to reduce the LA to put them in line with other PCs.  Unfortunately, a lot of these flaws are situational and may not result in a noticeable decrease in character power (but when you're playing a monster with high LA, you need all the help you can get).

Pathfinder RPG: Monster CR is treated as class levels.  A CR 4 Minotaur Barbarian 2 is considered level 6.  However, the system is pretty bare-bones and says that DM Fiat may be necessary to eyeball under/overpowered monsters.  Also, monster PCs gain a bonus level every 3 levels a number of times equal to half the monster's CR; the reason for this is that racial hit die and innate abilities diminish as they gain levels.

Dragonlance setting, 3rd Edition: Dragonlance used the standard Savage Species rules, but due to the increased amount of characterization for monsters such as Draconians, they added in an Acceptance rule.  Basically, a monster PC who hangs around a community and does heroic stuff, is nice to locals, etc, has a chance at earned respect and trust from the community (and possibly beyond with a good enough reputation).  Monsters with bad reputations, strange mindset/abilities, or incredibly large and powerful have a harder time gaining Acceptance.

Eberron and Iron Kingdoms: Both settings had LA 0 races which were pretty much monsters with the serial numbers filed off or weaker variants: Golems as Warforged, Trolls as Trollkin, etc.

Overall, in terms of official content, I think that Pathfinder was on the right track, but sadly fell short of a complete system.  Eberron, Iron Kingdoms, and 4th Edition's options of making playable monster variants straight from 1st level can be an interesting choice, although it may rob them of their more powerful and iconic abilities.

What do you think?
« Last Edit: June 18, 2012, 01:14:09 PM by Libertad »

Offline Chrononaut

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Re: Thoughts on Monster PC rules variants
« Reply #1 on: June 15, 2012, 04:41:02 PM »
The PF monsters as PCs acknowledges that "class levels > monster HD in every way and position" and states that as monsters level up they get bonus levels every 2 levels until half their starting CR is gone to compensate, don't forget that.

There's also the Pathfinder advanced race guide coming out later this month, along with the playtest doc earlier. From what I saw of the playtest doc, it runs "make up your own 0 HD race with these lists of abilities and traits" using a point buy system analogous to an Eidolon's evolutions. AND (what I liked, it's probably psychology) instead of making powerful monster races have LA, it says "powerful races lower the effective CR of monsters at these levels, remember to adjust EXP accordingly" but scaled it by level. I.e. the higher your level, the less your race mattered for adjusting encounters.

Offline awaken_D_M_golem

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Re: Thoughts on Monster PC rules variants
« Reply #2 on: June 15, 2012, 04:51:49 PM »
4e brought the maths a whole lot closer.
Monsters are basically +1 per level.
PCs are +1/2 per level and massive build-o-rama.
The massive build-o-rama covers the other
+1/2 per level, and gives you a +2 to hit.
It shouldn't be hard at all to "convert" a
basic monster entry into a PC race in 4e.

Weirdness ... I haven't posted the details yet
but you can take the vampire-y Vrylocka race
possibly Revenant so it's more dead,
be the Vampire class, take the Dhampyre feats,
get blood drained by an Open Grave Vampire
get turned into one of those, get blood drained
by a MM Vampire and add that template,
get semi-blood drained by another vampire
and add the Vamp servant template.  Fit in
a Mount and a Familiar both of which can get
some of the above Vamp sillyness going too.

Call it: More Vampire Than Vampire-ER.
 :)
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Offline phaedrusxy

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Re: Thoughts on Monster PC rules variants
« Reply #3 on: June 18, 2012, 12:18:19 PM »
Wow, I had no idea PF had rules like that for monster PCs. Given the amount of hate I'd seen for the system around optimization boards, I'm surprised they did something so... smart. :P I might have to check that out. It sounds quite similar to one of the ideas advocated by Frank and K's "Races of War" homebrew splatbook.
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Offline Garryl

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Re: Thoughts on Monster PC rules variants
« Reply #4 on: June 18, 2012, 04:31:47 PM »
It's hardly perfect. The PB race creation's playtest document was poor from what I saw (it basically shoehorned the LA +0 races' abilities into 10 points with no regard to the power of those abilities; perhaps the most egregious example was +4 to Hide and Ride from the Goblin race being worth 8 points). That CR as level thing sounds nice, though (barring the usual issues of under- and over-CRed monsters). I hadn't heard that thing about bonus feats, though.

Offline awaken_D_M_golem

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Re: Thoughts on Monster PC rules variants
« Reply #5 on: June 18, 2012, 07:26:10 PM »
Pathfinder RPG: Monster CR is treated as class levels.

Huh.  Not bad. 
That powers up Fey Racial HD rather nicely.


Does it still work anything like this ?!
CR Increase - Do not apply this increase if you advance a monster by class levels. (Monsters advanced by class levels are assumed to use the elite array.)
Aberration, construct, elemental, fey, giant, humanoid, ooze, plant, undead, vermin    +1 per 4 HD added
!!


EDIT --- see below.  Still works for 3e with massaging.
« Last Edit: June 19, 2012, 06:58:45 PM by awaken_D_M_golem »
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Offline Libertad

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Re: Thoughts on Monster PC rules variants
« Reply #6 on: June 18, 2012, 08:50:28 PM »
In Pathfinder, all monster PCs advance by class levels and do not gain additional racial hit die.  So unless you're a CR 20 creature, you have to choose a class at some point.

Unlike Savage Species, Pathfinder monster PCs don't have rules for starting out as less powerful versions of themselves; no 1st-level Minotaurs!

Offline Chrononaut

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Re: Thoughts on Monster PC rules variants
« Reply #7 on: June 21, 2012, 01:56:59 PM »
The other thing is ofc that lots of low HP wonders in 3.5 have more HD in PF, so you don't have to sit there with a 3 HP pixie and hope to god nothing touches you in that system either.

And yeah IIRC garryl that was the playtest they sent out, presumably skill bonuses won't have nearly that impact.

Inb4 soro decides he hates it and makes Mentats, a small race with the elite array at advanced power rating with a racial +12 to int that still has no level adjust to prove how stupid it is.