[PF] Crossbow Fighter tips

[Kamaei]

Hello everyone, in my first pathfinder game as a fighter, attempting to focus on using crossbows or just being ranged because they get a lot of feats and because in the party there is only 1 other ranged and its a sorcerer.  In the campaign, we are workers/slaves on a pirate ship, though being hinted that we are going to eventually mutiny.  The books we are allowed to only use are any of the PF, no d&d 3.5e allowed. 

Some house rules that we have no: 1.reagent/exp cost, 2. age/weight modifiers, 3. item capacity, 4. crit confirmations(natural 20 = max dmg, <20 = double/triple dmg), skill point training is always 1, no starving/thirst problems at most occasions

I am currently a female human, level 2, fighter. Str:16, Dex:18, Con:16, Int:13, Wis:12, Cha:13.
Feats I got are: Point-Blank Shot, Precise Shot, Rapid Reload(for the crossbow), and haven't selected my last.

Don't really know what books i should look at for more feats that would help me benefit with a crossbow, or a repeating h. crossbow which i'm saving gold up to buy if there is one at any city we enter.  Any suggestions will help and will try to respond back if anyone has any questions about the game or character

[veekie]

Firstly, avoid crossbows where possible, its just not made to be a primary weapon(damage won't increase, you lose a feat just to make the load time feasible, can't apply strength). Why not use bows instead?

[Kamaei]

Firstly, avoid crossbows where possible, its just not made to be a primary weapon(damage won't increase, you lose a feat just to make the load time feasible, can't apply strength). Why not use bows instead?

I thought it would be possible to increase the damage of a crossbow, for some reason, someone in my group said that bows have the advantage at early levels and that crossbows would be more effective in the later levels so I assumed that crossbows would be a better choice in the longer run, if not, then I guess I should switch over to using bows.. long or short?

[whitetyger009]

with rapid reload you don't really need a repeating crossbow (unless your going to be using the heavy crossbow of course).  since you can reload as a free action.  so the money you could spend on that repeating crossbow you could instead put toward a magical crossbow. 

now having stated the above i would go with just a light crossbow, use my last feat for weapon focus light crossbow.

and at 3rd take rapid shot. 

another option is working toward taking cleave.  yes i am serious.  it says target within reach.  it doesn't specify melee. 

clustered shots (ultimate combat) is a good one if you are facing lots of enemies with DR.  it allows you to total all your damage for the round before DR is removed rather than having the DR reduce each shot.

hammer the gap (ultimate combat) allows for increased damage for each aditional shot that hits an opponent.

and of course there are the weapon specialization and greater focus and specialization.  not to mention improved initiative, deadly aim, fleet, shoot on the run, penetrating strike.

having said all of this i go with Compound Long bows.  you get all the same feats without the need for rapid reload and more damage.  many shot becomes avaliable giving you another arrow every round.

[veekie]

Firstly, avoid crossbows where possible, its just not made to be a primary weapon(damage won't increase, you lose a feat just to make the load time feasible, can't apply strength). Why not use bows instead?

I thought it would be possible to increase the damage of a crossbow, for some reason, someone in my group said that bows have the advantage at early levels and that crossbows would be more effective in the later levels so I assumed that crossbows would be a better choice in the longer run, if not, then I guess I should switch over to using bows.. long or short?

Crossbows basically have nothing they can do that bows can't, so I've no idea what they're talking about. With a composite longbow, you'd be counting on volume of fire to multiply even small damage increases to a significant level.

Feat priorities(prereqs implicit of course):
Precise Shot(and it's upgrade) - First of all this. Unless you want to ditch ranged attacks once enemies engage, this feat is vital.
Rapid Shot(and it's chain) - Your primary source of damage.
Deadly Aim - Your second source of damage to add to extra shots.
Point Blank Master - Now you're any-range.
Weapon Specialization(series) - Not that good for anyone else, the damage adds up significantly.

Special considerations
Stabbing Shot - Yes, you have to be an elf, but it rids you of enemies putting you in melee that you can't just 5ft step out of. You could also use Racial Heritage to cheat your way out of the -Con.

Dubious Benefit:
Shot on the Run(and its upgrades) - Again, theoretically it takes you out of melee. Actually it just takes you out of melee reach and into charge range.

Traps:
Focused Shot - It LOOKS nice at first glance, but firing as a standard action costs you the bulk of your accuracy.
Disrupting Shot - If you hit with a readied arrow, odds are they'd lose the spell anyway due to the high concentration DC for coping with damage AND the difficulty of boosting concentration in PF.

[Vicerious]

I came up with a crossbow sniper build a while back that you may get some mileage out of.  It's not as effective as the above rapid fire build, but the looks on your friends' faces when your crossbowman drops two dozen dice on the table for one damage roll will be priceless.

Crossbowman Fighter 7/Sniper Rogue 13

Feat Selection:
Point Blank Shot, Precise Shot, Rapid Shot, Deadly Aim
Rapid Reload (heavy crossbow), Crossbow Mastery (heavy crossbow)
Vital Strike, Improved Vital Strike, Greater Vital Strike

Trait: Get Use Magic Device as a class skill.

Use a heavy crossbow sized for a large creature when you can.  Going from 1d10 (5.5 average damage) to 2d8 (9 average damage) for -2 attack is slightly more efficient than Deadly Aim.  Purchase a wand of gravity bow once you have enough UMD to make it reliable (don't forget to get a masterwork tool).  With gravity bow active, your crossbow is now at 3d8 base damage.  If you can get an enlarge person spell cast on you, your crossbow goes to 4d8 for another -2 attack (-1 size, -2 Dex), which is a 4 point net gain in damage - this is less efficient than Deadly Aim, but it gives you more dice to roll, which is fun.

Seven levels of crossbowman grant you +1/2 Dex to damage and denies the target their Dex to AC if you ready the action to fire.  This is not such a huge deal because (a) you can just ready the action to trigger just before the next initiative and therefore keep your turn order and (b) Vital Strike and its kin use a standard action and can therefore be readied.  This is why we went through the trouble of boosting your base weapon damage.

Modifiers	Base (avg)	VS	Imp VS	Greater VS
Heavy Crossbow	1d10 (5.5)	2d10 (11)	3d10 (16.5)	4d10 (22)
Large Heavy Crossbow	2d8 (9)	4d8 (18)	6d8 (27)	8d8 (36)
Lrg Hvy Xbow +gravity bow	3d8 (13.5)	6d8 (27)	9d8 (40.5)	12d8 (54)
Lrg Hvy Xbow + gb + enlarge person	4d8 (18)	8d8 (36)	12d8 (54)	16d8 (72)

If you can snag any other size boosters, I highly recommend it.  Size modifiers for weapon damage really start to accelerate as they go up.  For example, if you could get just one more size increase beyond enlarge person, the base weapon damage jumps from 4d8 to 6d8!

Then start stacking rogue levels for sneak attack dice.  Your basic combat strategy then looks something like this:

• Target beyond SA range but less than (SA range + your move speed): Use one move action to get within 30 feet and use option 3.
• Target beyond (SA range + your move speed): full attack with Rapid Shot against low AC, readied VS against high AC.
• Target is within SA range and has Dex to AC: readied VS to deny target's Dex to AC for multiplied base damage +1/2 Dex + sneak attack.
• Target is within SA range and is denied Dex to AC: full attack with Rapid Shot base damage + sneak attack.

In all of the above, use Deadly Aim at your discretion - it stacks with everything.

[StreamOfTheSky]

Crossbows are better for crit-based builds, due to having a better range.  And for Vital Strike builds, due to higher base damage (Heavy Crossbow).

But neither of those builds is particularly good, so...

[Kamaei]

Okay, so 2 builds for using a crossbow, and one build for just using a bow, and another disagreeing with crossbows.. hmmm

with rapid reload you don't really need a repeating crossbow (unless your going to be using the heavy crossbow of course).  since you can reload as a free action.  so the money you could spend on that repeating crossbow you could instead put toward a magical crossbow.

Since we raided a ship, I already had in possession a heavy crossbow, and i was planning to get a h. repeating as well when i earned enough, and so far, we haven't come across any magical equipment/weapons so i don't know what are the chances of finding magical crossbow in first local town we go to.

Special considerations
Stabbing Shot - Yes, you have to be an elf, but it rids you of enemies putting you in melee that you can't just 5ft step out of. You could also use Racial Heritage to cheat your way out of the -Con.

Dubious Benefit:
Shot on the Run(and its upgrades) - Again, theoretically it takes you out of melee. Actually it just takes you out of melee reach and into charge range.

Forgot to mention, that most of the people in this dungeon are human, so any other race is disliked, sadly, most of the group isn't human. And, for Shot on the Run, our DM will probably say i would still be in melee if i used a bow/crossbow because I'm highly annoying during the DM's "story time"

I came up with a crossbow sniper build a while back that you may get some mileage out of.  It's not as effective as the above rapid fire build, but the looks on your friends' faces when your crossbowman drops two dozen dice on the table for one damage roll will be priceless.

Crossbowman Fighter 7/Sniper Rogue 13

I really love the concept/design of your crossbow sniper but in this dungeon the leveling speed is substantially low(slow) because the idea behind the dungeon was for 4 people, and the last meet up we had 9 people. so the DM has to double/triple the number when we have any encounters, and instead of being possibly what the book says, level 3, we barely just hit level 2. So, if I were to go for this build, it would probably take... forever to see the results or if the dungeon finshes and the DM stops it, I won't be able to see the greatness of it  T_T;

[veekie]

Forgot to mention, that most of the people in this dungeon are human, so any other race is disliked, sadly, most of the group isn't human. And, for Shot on the Run, our DM will probably say i would still be in melee if i used a bow/crossbow because I'm highly annoying during the DM's "story time"

The Racial Heritage feat can let you bypass it if you're human, but its not really important unless you won't level high enough to allow you to get Point Blank Master.

Note that the traps and dubious benefit stuff are stuff you shouldn't take, even if it looks good at a glance.

Basic setup is straight Fighter(move every feat up a level if you're Human):
Stats: Dex>Str>Con>Wis>Int>Cha
1: Point Blank Shot, Precise Shot
2: Rapid Shot
3: Deadly Aim
4: Weapon Focus(longbow)
5: Weapon Specialization(longbow)
6: Manyshot(can't be moved even if you have a free feat, get the next one instead)
7: Point Blank Master(longbow)
8: Snap Shot
9: Improved Snap Shot(can't be moved, get Clustered Shots or Combat Reflexes)

That should serve you for a good while, given your stated level.
You can also pick up the Archer Fighter archetype, which loses you some AC, but grants you ranged combat maneuvers and saving on the Point Blank Master feat(which you can invest into combat maneuver feats instead)

[Kamaei]

so veekie, if I were to switch from crossbow to a bow, what kind would you recommend? long, short, heavy, composite? >.>

[Vicerious]

Composite longbow, always.  The only exception is using a composite shortbow for mounted archery.

[phaedrusxy]

Composite longbow, always.  The only exception is using a composite shortbow for mounted archery.

Not even then.

You can use a composite longbow while mounted.

[veekie]

Composite longbow, always.  The only exception is using a composite shortbow for mounted archery.

Not even then.

You can use a composite longbow while mounted.

Pretty much. Boy was I surprised when I realized that.

[StreamOfTheSky]

Have you never heard of the Mongols before?

[Kamaei]

Composite longbow, always.  The only exception is using a composite shortbow for mounted archery.

Not even then.

You can use a composite longbow while mounted.

Pretty much. Boy was I surprised when I realized that.

So Composite longbow it is then

Have you never heard of the Mongols before?

No I haven't >.>

[veekie]

^^
Horse archers traditionally use shortbows though, so hey, the more you know!