PA on touch attacks

[dumah87]

is it possible?
Can I activate power attack, on touch attacks?

[kitep]

I don't think so.

However, you can deliver a touch attack via an unarmed strike, and you can PA on unarmed strike - but that would give the extra damage to the strike, not the spell/touch attack, so may not be what you want.

[sirpercival]

Touch attacks derived from what source?  If it's something like Wraithstrike, then sure.

[Jackinthegreen]

As Perce said, PA can work on touch attacks through effects like the spell Wraithstrike.  3.5 allows that.

Pathfinder, however, explicitly says it doesn't work on touch attacks regardless of why it's a touch attack.  Look at the last sentence.

[Prime32]

Touch attacks derived from what source?  If it's something like Wraithstrike, then sure.

To clarify, wraithstrike makes all your attacks touch attacks. In this case you're hitting a different AC but you otherwise aren't following any different rules.

A touch spell is another matter, and the restriction is part of it being a spell, not being a touch attack.

[StreamOfTheSky]

Using PA with Emerald Razor is the whole reason to use Emerald Razor maneuver in the first place.

Wraithstrike is just a broken spell, don't just the interaction based on that one.  Doing it via Emerald Razor, Find the Gap spell, or level Master Thrower's capstone, for example...none of those are broken.  First two are limited to one attack per turn, latter comes online late and is a PrC capstone, and removes str bonus to damage (which may or may not matter to you).  Just some examples.  Only other broken touch attack method I know of is heartseeker amulet.  And that's still only one attack, the amulet's just grossly underpriced.

[Tr011]

is it possible?
Can I activate power attack, on touch attacks?

Yes, you can power attack on touch attacks as much as you can on regular attacks.
But regardless of this, you can't use power attack for spells, neither touch attacks nor attacks vs. regular AC.

[littha]

Technically you could power attack with a spell but I am fairly certain you would just end up wit a penalty to hit and no extra damage.

Well, that is unless the spell's damage counts as a melee damage roll. Which it might if you look at it as a damage roll at melee range but I don't think that works RAI.

[dumah87]

Touch attacks derived from what source?  If it's something like Wraithstrike, then sure.

Devastating Touch's Gray Guard class feature

[Jackinthegreen]

The damage of Devastating Touch is based on your Lay on Hands ability.  Power Attack applies its extra damage on damage rolls, which Devastating Touch doesn't have.  In short, you can't PA with it.

Please be more specific next time you ask a question.  If you want specific information, ask a specific question.  I know it's not stated in the sticky, but this should be quite obvious.

[dumah87]

The damage of Devastating Touch is based on your Lay on Hands ability.  Power Attack applies its extra damage on damage rolls, which Devastating Touch doesn't have.  In short, you can't PA with it.

Please be more specific next time you ask a question.  If you want specific information, ask a specific question.  I know it's not stated in the sticky, but this should be quite obvious.

Of course, I will.
Thank you.

[Unbeliever]

is it possible?
Can I activate power attack, on touch attacks?

Yes, you can power attack on touch attacks as much as you can on regular attacks.
But regardless of this, you can't use power attack for spells, neither touch attacks nor attacks vs. regular AC.

Why not?  It's an attack.  You can sneak attack with it, why is the Power Attack feat any different? 

[Kethrian]

is it possible?
Can I activate power attack, on touch attacks?

Yes, you can power attack on touch attacks as much as you can on regular attacks.
But regardless of this, you can't use power attack for spells, neither touch attacks nor attacks vs. regular AC.

Why not?  It's an attack.  You can sneak attack with it, why is the Power Attack feat any different? 

In all likelihood, the touch spell would necessarily fall into the light weapon category, which means no bonus damage from Power Attack.

[Unbeliever]

^ we're way out of RAW territory here, though, right? 

[Jackinthegreen]

^ we're way out of RAW territory here, though, right?

Page 85 of Complete Arcane has some rules on it and it specifically says "strength modifiers to damage and magical effects that increase weapon damage (such as the bard’s inspire courage ability and the prayer spell) don’t increase damage from a weaponlike spell."

That section also references page 72, which gives a set number of feats that'll work when using weaponlike spells.  Of note is Improved Unarmed Strike, which states that a touch spell can be delivered through a normal unarmed attack.  In that case, Power Attack would kind of work, but it's just modifying the unarmed strike rather than the spell itself.  There's also the Weapon Finesse entry which states: "You can treat touch spells as light weapons and use your Dexterity modifier (instead of your Strength modifier) on your touch attack rolls with such spells."

So yes, it is entirely RAW that touch spells are treated as light weapons.

Overall, PA wouldn't affect the actual spell's damage since it's treated as a light weapon for weapon finesse, and using it with IUS simply modifies the actual weapon damage, not the spell's damage.

[Unbeliever]

So yes, it is entirely RAW that touch spells are treated as light weapons.

I disagree.  The section you quoted was "You can treat touch spells as light weapons ..."  (emphasis added).  This is the same language used for a Rapier: 

You can use the Weapon Finesse feat to apply your Dexterity modifier instead of your Strength modifier to attack rolls with a rapier sized for you, even though it isn’t a light weapon for you.

Contrast that with the language used for an Unarmed Strike:

An unarmed strike is always considered a light weapon. Therefore, you can use the Weapon Finesse feat to apply your Dexterity modifier instead of your Strength modifier to attack rolls with an unarmed strike. (emphasis added)

And, of course, you can use Power Attack with a Rapier, despite its special ability to masquerade as a light weapon.  The only limitation is you can't use it with 2 hands. 

All that being said, the rules for this are pretty poorly laid out.  For example, I have no idea why you can Sneak Attack with a spell but a Bard's Inspire Courage is somehow off-limits b/c it uses the words "weapon damage" even though we are talking about what they labeled "weaponlike spells." 

My main point is that there is no solid RAW support for saying spells can't Power Attack.  And, that the interpretive support for it is thin as well.  You're stuck with a sort of "the rules can't say you can ..." type of logic, which isn't very satisfying. 

That being said, I don't see that much rides on this.  You can't use a "spell" two handed, the only way you'd be able to pull that off would be a channel spell power like the Ordained Champion has, which would render the entire debate moot.  And, even setting up a charge with a touch spell would usually take 2 actions, so isn't very efficient.  So, at most, the caster is getting +BAB to damage with his spells at the expense of a higher likelihood to hit (going from essentially guaranteed to less than that) and spending a feat.  Unless I'm missing something, there's not a huge game balance concern there. 

[NunoM]

As i read it, the PA feat specifies that the damage is added to the melee damage dealt, not to spell damage delivered at melee range. (Heck, if this were true, Duskblades would wreck havok in the frontlines )

There are, however, many ways to turn a normal melee (weapon) attack into a touch attack (ex.: Emerald Razor). In those cases, damage from PA is completely applicable on a touch attack.