Eliminating Magic Mart

[DoctorGlock]

Ok, first off, this is not about "PCs should get junk items and be happy with it", I fully believe PCs need access to full WBL in relevant gear. I just find the concept of a store or organization with the wealth needed to run a magic mart just sitting there and engaging in merchant work a bit hard to swallow. I find the though of magic item prices in general a bit... irritating.

Consider that the cash the paladin spends on his +5 could buy a small nation, why is he buying a sword rather than creating an example good utopia?

A magic mart where you can buy a +10 equivalent armor or weapon, heck, in bulk even, can buy a small planet. Why are they running a market stall?

A single first level dungeon crawl, heck, even hiding and looting the first room, will keep a commoner family fed for months. Why ain't more commoners risking their hides as adventurers?

In short, D&D economics in general has me scratching my head. I want players to have access to WBL equivalent gear while still having a believable economy.

So, I had some ideas I am tinkering with, maybe y'all can chime in with suggestions.

1: Eliminate the gold piece as the WBL standard. Instead, everyone has WBL in equivalent "points" to imbue non magical items with. These are abstract points, they can represent your normal length of chain being enchanted while in your hands because you are just that awesome or they can represent you using your magic to do it the old fashioned way. Either way, everyone can manifest magic items up to their manifestation limit (WBL). Now there are no salesmen with the ability to take over the world and the paladin has a reason to burn WBL on gear instead of utopias because it's just another class feature rather than independent something.

-this allows you to give NPCs enough gear to challenge PCs without ending with PCs having 30x WBL

-this allows the average joe to manifest some gear (not much, but some) and improve standard of living.

2: GP still exists, it is used to but non magical anything and for basic living expenses. The question is how much they should get. Or should I just take that out of manifestation points?

This is obviously for a non gritty high magic setting where just about everyone can just poof magic items into being . I just want a consistent reason for the D&D economy to work.

What effects will a system like this have on the game (if any)?

[SorO_Lost]

I find the though of magic item prices in general a bit... irritating.

Me too, but in a way of why is this X and this one Y? And how in the hell did they come up with WBL's numbers?

Consider that the cash the paladin spends on his +5 could buy a small nation, why is he buying a sword rather than creating an example good utopia?

See 1%'s comments on 99%.

A magic mart where you can buy a +10 equivalent armor or weapon, heck, in bulk even, can buy a small planet. Why are they running a market stall?

I've always considered something like that to be done by commission, and the guy lives in Sigil. Makes a great item to give to your BBEg who wasted his time making it too.

A single first level dungeon crawl, heck, even hiding and looting the first room, will keep a commoner family fed for months. Why ain't more commoners risking their hides as adventurers?

They are, it's called "population control."

1: Eliminate the gold piece as the WBL standard. Instead, everyone has WBL in equivalent "points" to imbue non magical items with. These are abstract points, they can represent your normal length of chain being enchanted while in your hands because you are just that awesome or they can represent you using your magic to do it the old fashioned way. Either way, everyone can manifest magic items up to their manifestation limit (WBL). Now there are no salesmen with the ability to take over the world and the paladin has a reason to burn WBL on gear instead of utopias because it's just another class feature rather than independent something.

I've seen it in use but as 80/20. Only 20% of loot is created and it's all various gems and gold which allows you to buy food, lodging, or hire people.

Problem we had was explaining wands. For instance you want a dozen partially charged wands to UMD but you are not a caster and have never studied magic and if you did why use wands when you can cast spells your self? My suggestion was a limitation based on what your character would conceivable know from his own focus, but the imbuing process can be shared. For instance the Paladin cannot imbue Shadow onto his armor, but the Rogue can show him how.

Looking back on it now, I think if the system appeals to you the entire Craft Feat line should removed and a new Knowledge skill created. Crafting an unknown trait (by rule of DM) requires a special Knowledge(imbuing) check, success means you know how.

Of course, then you get people who complain everyone is magical but meh.

[DoctorGlock]

Problem we had was explaining wands. For instance you want a dozen partially charged wands to UMD but you are not a caster and have never studied magic and if you did why use wands when you can cast spells your self? My suggestion was a limitation based on what your character would conceivable know from his own focus, but the imbuing process can be shared. For instance the Paladin cannot imbue Shadow onto his armor, but the Rogue can show him how.

Looking back on it now, I think if the system appeals to you the entire Craft Feat line should removed and a new Knowledge skill created. Crafting an unknown trait (by rule of DM) requires a special Knowledge(imbuing) check, success means you know how.

Of course, then you get people who complain everyone is magical but meh.

I like this, I'm planning on implementing it into my next game. So far almost no one in my group has had any problems with "everyone is magical" and it is quite often a player draw. With a few exceptions (grognards for the most, they also think my use of ToB is bad for being "anime") I find players prefer a shiny sparkly high magic setting to inconsistent dark ages.

Any ideas for how to implement the system with knowledge checks and class roles?

[InnaBinder]

One of the stated design goals for Legend was eliminating the Magic Mart.  You might want to take a look at the approach taken there.

[SorO_Lost]

Any ideas for how to implement the system with knowledge checks and class roles?

Call it as it's seen.

• Fearsome for instance is an Intimidation based ability, do they have Intimidation as a class skill?
• Blur Strike renders the opponent flat-footed, does their class choices really gain something for the opponent being flat-footed outside of the debuff to AC? Like Sneak Attack maybe?
• Figment armor so it can alter what it looks like? sounds like a form of Disguise to me, are they a Rogue or Changling perhaps?

You would want the skill kind of high though, everyone would already know things for their class and what they would want is to extend their versatility. Exactly what UMD is used for, so I'd aim to kind of follow it's example.

I'm thinking: (Check-20 = WBL) / 4 > Cost?
It makes 1st level characters unable to know how to imbue something out of their focus (99% of the time).
By 5th level you would have 8 ranks, say you're a Wizard for maybe 20 int, that is a +13 bonus. On average you can make a check for 23 for 3rd level WBL. Divide by four for a mere 675gp limit, you're just short of being able to craft any 1st level wand you want. Other classes would have less of a chance but you are the know it all Wizard.

The DC would ultimately cap at 41 or so. 40 is 20th level WBL which comes out to 190k and 200k is Epic cap. It's very close to UMD's 35ish cap excluding things like CL20 Scrolls (which are DC40).

As for who would get the skill? idk, everyone with UMD K-Arcane or K-Religion. Pretty much includes everyone but big dumb fighters. But be realistic rather than commenting Fighter's don't get good stuff. The Fighter is focused on nothing but combat, would they REALLY care about having the ability to Imbue a necklace with teleportation effects? Unlikely, they would want combat oriented stuff and they automatically know that whereas a Wizard honestly wouldn't know how to Imbue armor at all (Arcane's and ASF you know).

[Mixster]

I'm creating a setting for another system atm. And in D&D terms that would be a low magic campaign, but for just about everything else, it is very high magic.

Anyway my solution to the fact that there should be some availability of magic items is that there's a jackload of adventuring parties, and while most are unsuccessful, the successful ones often haul a few of them back and sell them to either the guild they are a part of, or the traders guild.

As such, the "magic marts" aren't crafting much but a few wands and potions themselves. Instead, when some adventuring group haul in some items that they can't use, or even identify, they buy them off them and re-distribute them on demand.
Thus a guildhouse might have a few magic items lying around that they are willing to sell, but if adventurers order somethign special the guildhouse have two options: Either communicate with the other guildhouses to see whether they have something close to the order, or send out adventuring parties to try and find that specific item. They would off course use divination spells to attempt to ascertain where such items are, so getting something ordered could be a costly affair.

This both gives me some plot hooks, where the adventurers are asked by the guildhouse to retrieve some items, and it gives me reasonable explanation for how a character can say: I really want/need this item, and get it. He'd have hired someone from the guild to find out where such an item is.

[veekie]

Thats going to involve one hell of a hazard pay there.

[Mixster]

Thats going to involve one hell of a hazard pay there.

Nah, just a reward for getting the item, and a bunch of adventurers who need money badly.