Fiddling with an idea: Druid//X/War Hulk

[ksbsnowowl]

Just playing around with an idea for an NPC that lives "off the grid" way out in the wilds.

A druid would not qualify for War Hulk until 8th level (when they can wildshape into Large creatures), and by then Druid satisfies the +5 BAB requirement on its own.

Since I'll be dumping the BAB on the non-Druid side anyway (I total up the two sides, compare, and take the better), it doesn't really matter what else I put in for those first 8 levels, at least as far as BAB goes.  What I'd really be shooting for are skill lists and other nice class abilities.

From 6th-8th level I'd like to go with Nature's Warrior, in order to get Serpent's Coils, as well as one other Nature's Armament (not sure which is best... probably fast healing 1 just because).  He could potentially stick something else on the Druid side for 7th level, as Nature's Warrior would cover him on the spellcasting and wildshape advancement (would only lose one level of Animal Companion advancement).  Or I could use it to increase my divine caster level in something else he takes in the first five levels.

Alternatively, I could go with 1 level of Nature's Warrior, and 2 levels of Warshaper, which would actually mesh well with the grappler concept, as it would make him immune to crits (and thus no sneak attack from the party rogue while he is grappling).

So, what classes do you suggest?

The first level being Scout would be handy, both for the skill points, and the skirmish damage (especially if he wildshapes into something that can pounce, or casts Lions Charge).

Rogue won't do much good, as 2/3 of my players are pretty much immune to sneak attack.
Two levels of Fighter wouldn't be terrible, getting a couple feats.
Barbarian would be decent as well, giving him Rage for when he's grappling. - Maybe the Bear Totem Barb, two levels would get him Improved Grapple without having to take IUS.
Ranger is also good, getting me the Track feat he'll need to qualify for Nature's Warrior.
Depending upon his stats, a level of Wizard would actually do him well, getting access to Knowledge (the Planes) as a class skill to snag the requisite 2 skill points, and perhaps getting some crazy ACF like Abrupt Jaunt, and getting Mage Armor in Bear form is a plus.

Any other, better ideas?

1. Scout 1
2. Ranger 1
3. Wizard 1 (Focused Conjurer...?)
4. Bear Totem Barbarian 1
5. Bear Totem Barbarian 2
6. War Shaper 1
7. War Shaper 2
8. Nature's Warrior 1
9+. War Hulk

By 12th level (in Dire Bear form), his Strength would be 43 [47 when raging] (31 +4 +8 [+4])
His Grapple bonus would be +37 (+9 BAB, +16 Str, +4 Size, +4 Imp Grapple, +4 Serpent's Coils) to deal 2d6+16 damage, plus 1d8+16 "constriction" damage from Serpent's Coils
Increase those by two when raging.

Thoughts?  What feats should I give him, other than Natural Spell?

[ksbsnowowl]

Alternatively, I could make him a Goliath, and get Powerful Wildshape for an additional +4 to grapples.

I'd probably drop the Wizard level in that instance (or maybe scout, or ranger...) to account for the +1 LA.

[Ithamar]

What about a weird base race like Pixie or Brownie?  Pixie lets you be invisible, DR and SR of course.  Brownie gets you HiPS, Evasion & Uncanny Dodge.

Ninja gives you WIS to AC and you can eventually turn invisible as a swift action a few times a day.

If you don't mind giving up your animal companion, you can take the raging druid variant.

I'd definitely recommend Warshaper.  But maybe a few levels of Fighter as well for bonus feats and the Dungeoncrasher ability?

[JohnnyMayHymn]

Hulking Hurler

Be a centaur if you want large earlier.

[ksbsnowowl]

A half hour ago I realized that Nature's Warrior and War Hulk are incompatible.... grr.
[Wildshape to go Large -> qualify for Warhulk -> lose all mental skills (including two ranks in Knowledge: The Planes) -> Lose access to Nature's Warrior.]

I can still do Warshaper, though.  Sucks to lose out on Serpent's Coils, but thems the breaks.

No oriental-flavored classes in this campaign.

How does Hulking Hurler make this a better grappler?

[linklord231]

Black Blood Cultist?  Not worth it if you can't get 8 levels though. 
Thayan Gladiator might work, but doesn't really help with grappling specifically.

[ksbsnowowl]

He doesn't have to be super-focused on grappling, I guess.  I just initially went that way due to Serpent's Coils, which I can't get with War Hulk anyway.  He'll still be a decent grapple monster, especially if I make him a Goliath (which I'm thinking about doing more and more...)

Powerful Wildshape would give him a +4 to his grapple checks, and increase his natural weapon damage size (so his Dire Bear claw attacks would deal 2d4 -> 2d6 -> 2d8 [or 3d6?]).  So, his grapple checks would still be equivalent to what I posted before, and a successful check would deal either 2d8+16 or 3d6+16 damage (depending upon your reading of Monster Manual table 5-1, p. 296, and the Improved Natural Attack feat).  He'd also deal 4d8+8 damage with his bite...

So, he'll still be quite the melee monster, whether grappling or not.

Maybe this (Straight Druid on the other side of the gestalt):
1. Goliath LA +1 - Power Attack
2. Scout 1
3. Barbarian 1 - ?, Toughness*
4. Barbarian 2 - Imp Grapple*
5. Wizard 1 - Scribe Scroll*
6. Fighter 1 - Natural Spell, Leap Attack (Armored Mage ACF)
7. Warshaper 1
8. Warshaper 2
9+. Warhulk - Powerful Wildshape
...
12. - ?

Fighter would give me an extra feat to work with, maybe leading into power attack and leap attack.

I'll stay away from Shock Trooper this time around, but Combat Brute might not be bad as his 12th level feat...

[Azoriel]

I suggest only taking one level of War Hulk and then doing Legacy Champion for the rest of your levels - that way, you continue to advance BAB (though it slows down your War Hulk progression ever so slightly).  Having War Hulk active would eliminate your ranks in Knowledge (History) (a pre-requisite of the PrC), but I'd say your effective War Hulk level would remain unimpacted by this, and only those class abilities unique to Legacy Champion would be inaccessible.

[Jackinthegreen]

If you want Druid/Scout there's the feat in Dragon 357 called Swift Avenger

Depending on the reading you could take Powerful Wild Shape and the Goliath Barbarian rage variant to become large while raging, which might work during Wild shape and for other size categories.  Turn into a PB Large bear, then Rage to become Huge for example.

And the damage progression would go 2d4>2d6>3d6>4d6.

[linklord231]

If you want Druid/Scout there's the feat in Dragon 357 called Swift Avenger

Holy crap, who decided that printing Druid multiclass feats was a good idea?  Let's take the class with the absolute MOST to lose by multiclassing, and then give him all the benefits of multiclassing for almost free!

[ksbsnowowl]

If you want Druid/Scout there's the feat in Dragon 357 called Swift Avenger

Depending on the reading you could take Powerful Wild Shape and the Goliath Barbarian rage variant to become large while raging, which might work during Wild shape and for other size categories.  Turn into a PB Large bear, then Rage to become Huge for example.

And the damage progression would go 2d4>2d6>3d6>4d6.

Swift Avenger: Dear God that's broken.  At least Swift Hunter required you to get +1d6/+1 AC skirmish (ie - Scout 3).  I also don't allow the stacking function of the "gestalt feats" in a gestalt game. (Though there may be other good reasons to take it, like Charisma to AC via Ascetic Mage, for example).

Goliath Barb sub level doesn't work, as it specifically makes you "large" when you use it. (Though it does say it "increases" your size to Large).

[Jackinthegreen]

If you want Druid/Scout there's the feat in Dragon 357 called Swift Avenger

Depending on the reading you could take Powerful Wild Shape and the Goliath Barbarian rage variant to become large while raging, which might work during Wild shape and for other size categories.  Turn into a PB Large bear, then Rage to become Huge for example.

And the damage progression would go 2d4>2d6>3d6>4d6.

Swift Avenger: Dear God that's broken.  At least Swift Hunter required you to get +1d6/+1 AC skirmish (ie - Scout 3).  I also don't allow the stacking function of the "gestalt feats" in a gestalt game. (Though there may be other good reasons to take it, like Charisma to AC via Ascetic Mage, for example).

Goliath Barb sub level doesn't work, as it specifically makes you "large" when you use it. (Though it does say it "increases" your size to Large).

Hence why I said "Depending on the reading" because in a game where size changes can be quite common it's somewhat nonsensical to restrict things to just "small/medium/large" if they wanted it usable.  A lot of PC stuff tends to break down if it's smaller than small or larger than medium because of that.  And pointing out how Goliaths can't have Enlarge Person cast on them has me point to Expansion.  They didn't seem to think much about spells and powers when they created certain PC races.

And the simplest house rule for "gestalt" feats is to limit them to requiring the classes on one side or perhaps limiting it to maximum class level (so a 10th level druid//scout only gets equivalent 10th level abilities which essentially means that particular feat is worthless).  Multiclass feats that do change things like Ascetic Mage might still be worthwhile.

[Jackinthegreen]

If you want Druid/Scout there's the feat in Dragon 357 called Swift Avenger

Holy crap, who decided that printing Druid multiclass feats was a good idea?  Let's take the class with the absolute MOST to lose by multiclassing, and then give him all the benefits of multiclassing for almost free!

There's also cleric/rogue, cleric/bard, and shugenja/ninja (this last one is pretty much a trap due to becoming insanely MAD).

Edit: Nuts, I meant to add this into my other post instead of making a double...  Oh well.

[Rebel7284]

Early entry into Master of Many Forms with the Divine Minion template and wildshape into Gargantuan Dragons to grapple at level 11 is probably the most optimized way to do this.  Having a gestalt side for spellcasting just makes it sillier.

[RobbyPants]

Even a single level of Cloistered Cleric can be a good dip, if for no other reason, one to three free devotion feats.

One level of Monk or two levels of Swordsage can get you +Wis to AC, which wouldn't be a bad thing.