Author Topic: DMing Martial Adept Gestalt Game with Homebrew Disciplines. Advice Needed.  (Read 5976 times)

Offline TC X0 Lt 0X

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Recently I threw out an idea I had to my group for a game I had been thinking of perhaps running a few years from now if I had the time and interest in doing so, and wanted a little input from them about some of the mechanics I was thinking of having. After explaining some of the basic ideas I had about the game, they took a real liking to it, thinking up characters already even and a few have even asked if I could run the game maybe in a few weeks/months rather then a few years.

Do to the nature of adding Homebrew into this game however, I wanted to get some input from the forums on some of my ideas and the balance the game will have.

Here are some of my Houserules of note:

1) Each Character is built using a modification of Gestalt Rules, with one side locked as ONE Martial Adept Class of their choosing (refereed to hereafter as the Primary Martial Adept Class). This side of the gestalt can only be used to take class levels of the Primary Martial Adept Class selected.

2) Classes are restricted to Tier 3 or lower as well as no Full Spellcasting/Manifesting classes (classes that can cast 9th-level spells/powers). Recharge Magic variant rules are in use.

3) BAB, Saves, Skill Points, HP, etc are averaged between the Primary Martial Adept class and a class you take levels in. BAB and Saves are rounded up to standard low/mid/high progressions, and Fractional BAB/Saves are in use. HP is always Max. Fractional BAB/Saves are in use.

4)For the purposes of qualifying for Dual Progression Prestige Classes which provide Martial Adept Progression (Ex. Jade Phoenix Mage, Ruby Knight Vindicator), Maenuvers/Stances from the Martial Adept class cannot be used to meet class requirements. However any additional Martial Adept classes used on the other side of the gestalt can be used to qualify. In addition, Maneuver Known from the Primary Martial Adept class are treated as being known by any other Martial Adept class the character has for meeting requirements. Additional Maneuvers Known from Prestige classes can be added to Primary Martial Adept Class, but Maneuvers Readied/Granted cannot.

5) Immunities do not exist (with a few exceptions). If a creature has an Immunity normally, it instead gains a +10 bonus to saves or any other roll it would otherwise have to take against the effect. In the case of an Immunity against a type of damage, the creature gains no bonus to saves, and instead gains Resistance/Damage Reduction against the damage equal to twice it's HD in the case of a racial Immunity, twice Class Level in the case of a class granted Immunity, or twice caster level in the case of a spell/power/etc (Minimum 20). If an effect otherwise does not grant anyway to resist it not mentioned above, the creature is granted the option to make a save against the effect, or if not appropriate, is considered Immune to the effect.

6) Effects that outright kill those effected instead apply the Perishing condition.
Perishing: The characters current and Max HP are reduced by half when this condition is gained, and is further reduced by three times the level of the character which inflicted this condition at the end of each of the character's turn. The character takes ability damage to all it's ability scores equal to 1/4 the level of the character which inflicted this condition. The character is also Slowed for as long as it has this condition.
This condition can be removed using any effect that can remove Energy Drain or by any effect which restores HP equal to the amount of damage this effect would deal at the start of each round (healing from multiple sources do not remove this condition). In addition the character is allowed a Fortitude Save at the start of it's turn (DC 10 + Inflicter's Level).
In instances where the effect is a spell, spell-like ability, power, or maneuver use it's Caster/Manifester/Initator level in place of the inflicter's level and the normal Save and DC of the effect if it offers one in place of the Fortitude Save.


I would also like to utilize some House rule that allows Adepts to Learn additional Maneuvers Known beyond the normal progression of classes without needing to spend resources such as feats or retraining Maneuvers Known, as Encountering unknown Disciplines throughout their travels will be a big part of the game. I want it to be possible to get maneuvers known from a discipline easy enough, but also not be so abusable that each character will be able to learn every Maneuver they encounter and have have potentially no limit to the Maneuvers they could learn.


I also plan to use some Homebrew maneuvers from the interwebs as well as some Homebrew Martial Adept Classes. So far I will be using Falling Star, Abjurant Champion, Phantasmal Opus, Phoenix Tear, and Inner Light (found here), Crystalized Silver, Raging Storm, as well as elemental variations of Desert Storm. I am also considering the Wildheart and maybe this Sublime Marshal. Any suggestions to add to this list would be appreciated.

Any suggestions and critics would be appreciated.
« Last Edit: December 09, 2012, 06:24:43 AM by TC X0 Lt 0X »
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Offline sirpercival

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Re: DMing Martial Adept Gestalt Game with Homebrew Disciplines. Advice Needed.
« Reply #1 on: November 27, 2012, 08:41:40 AM »
First of all, this will be useful to you.  Second, I have several homebrew martial adepts that you may like:

Sublime Rogue
Wardancer
Cycle Warden
Warcrafter
Wyrm Warrior
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Offline TC X0 Lt 0X

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Re: DMing Martial Adept Gestalt Game with Homebrew Disciplines. Advice Needed.
« Reply #2 on: November 27, 2012, 09:26:46 AM »
Oh yes I am well aware of the Martial Discipline Compendium. That is where I discovered most of those Disciplines.
Quite a bit to go through in that.
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Offline TC X0 Lt 0X

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Re: DMing Martial Adept Gestalt Game with Homebrew Disciplines. Advice Needed.
« Reply #3 on: November 29, 2012, 07:19:13 AM »
I have selected a few more Disciplines which I will be allowing players to use at the start of the game.

Solaris Arcanum
Mental Grip
Warrior's Soul
Fortunate Assailant
Falling Mountain
Essence of Gaia
Viper Fang

Just for convience I will put them all into a Table.



\




A few were given or taken from classes that they normally do/don't associate with, as I saw fit, but for the most part they all stay true to the original source for who what Disciplines are available to.

So far I would like to ask that at least from a glance if any of these will cause any problems with game balance. I glanced over them and they all look fine to me, but I am not the best at judging these things.
Disciplines Available by Class
Maneuvers       Crusader    Swordsage    Warblade    Stalker   Warder   Warlord   
Desert Wind (ToB)       No     Yes    No     No     No     No    
Devoted Spirit (ToB)       Yes     No     No     No     Yes     Yes    
Diamond Mind (ToB)       No     Yes    Yes    No     No     No    
Iron Heart (ToB)       No     No     Yes    No     Yes     No    
Setting Sun (ToB)       No     Yes    No     Yes     No     No    
Shadow Hand (ToB)       No     Yes    No     Yes     No     No    
Stone Dragon (ToB)       Yes    Yes    Yes    No    Yes     No    
Tiger Claw (ToB)       No      Yes    Yes    Yes    No     Yes    
White Raven (ToB)       Yes     No     Yes    No    No     Yes    
Falling Star (WW)       Yes     Yes     No     Yes    No     Yes   
Abjurant Champion (WW)    No     Yes    No     No     No     No    
Phantasmal Opus (WW)    No     Yes    No     Yes     No     No    
Phoenix Tear (WW)       Yes    Yes     No     No     No     Yes    
Inner Light (WW)       Yes    No     Yes     No      Yes     Yes    
Raging Storm       Yes    Yes    No     No    No     No    
Crystalized Silver    No     Yes    No     No    No     No    
Solaris Arcanum    Yes    Yes    No    No     Yes     No    
Sleeping Goddess       No      Yes     Yes    No    No     No    
Warrior's Soul       Yes     Yes     Yes    Yes    Yes     Yes    
Fortunate Assailant    No      Yes     Yes    Yes    No     Yes    
Falling Mountain    No      Yes     Yes    No    Yes    No    
Essence of Gaia    Yes     Yes     Yes    Yes    Yes     Yes    
Viper Fang       No      Yes     No     Yes    No     No    
Broken Blade (PoW)       No      Yes     Yes     Yes    Yes     No    
Thrashing Dragon (PoW)       No      Yes     Yes     Yes    No     Yes    
Steel Serpant (PoW)          No      Yes     Yes     Yes    No     No    
Veiled Moon (PoW)          No      Yes     No     Yes    No     No    
Primal Fury (PoW)          Yes  No     Yes     No    Yes     Yes    
Golden Lion (PoW)          Yes     No     Yes     No    Yes     Yes    
Iron Tortoise (PoW)          Yes  No     Yes     No    Yes     No    
Scarlet Throne (PoW)          No      No     Yes     No    No     Yes    
Solar Wind (PoW)          No      Yes     Yes     Yes    No     Yes    
Frozen Zephyr       No     Yes    No     No     No     No    
Caustic Tempest       No     Yes    No     No     No     No    
Shocking Sky       No     Yes    No     No     No     No    
« Last Edit: May 06, 2014, 01:42:51 AM by TC X0 Lt 0X »
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Offline RobbyPants

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Re: DMing Martial Adept Gestalt Game with Homebrew Disciplines. Advice Needed.
« Reply #4 on: November 29, 2012, 08:57:30 AM »
5) Immunities do not exist (with a few exceptions). If a creature has an Immunity normally, it instead gains a bonus to saves or any other roll it would otherwise have to take against the effect equal to it's HD in the case of a racial Immunity, Class Level in the case of a class granted Immunity, or caster level in the case of a spell/power/etc (Minimum +10).
I would advise against basing the immunity off of HD; I'd have it be a flat bonus (+5, or maybe up to +10). Normally speaking, the DC of an effect goes up with the originator's HD, and the saves bonuses for the defender also go up by HD. Having the immunity "bonus" also based on HD makes the save bonus use double-HD for the calculation. The side-effect of this is that as a creature gains HD, it becomes more and more immune. I think it should be relative to the attacker, just how saves normally work. A single, static modifier would work just fine here.

Now, in terms of damage, basing the Energy Resistance off of HD is a good idea, since damage and HP scale with HD. The resistance should scale as well.


I would also like to utilize some House rule that allows Adepts to Learn additional Maneuvers Known beyond the normal progression of classes without needing to spend resources such as feats or retraining Maneuvers Known, as Encountering unknown Disciplines throughout their travels will be a big part of the game. I want it to be possible to get maneuvers known from a discipline easy enough, but also not be so abusable that each character will be able to learn every Maneuver they encounter and have have potentially no limit to the Maneuvers they could learn.
I allow Crusaders to pick one fourth discipline at first level that they have access to. Once the choice is made, they cannot change it.

As for homebrew disciplines, I'd be fine with letting a swordsage swap one of their six disciplines for a new one. If it seemed like it should be warblade or crusader-only, I might object, but swordsages seem to have the most versatility both in the number of disciplines they get and in the wide variety of effects they can access.


I also plan to use some Homebre maneuvers from the interwebs as well as some Homebrew Martial Adept Classes. So far I will be using Falling Star, Abjurant Champion, Phantasmal Opus, Phoenix Tear, and Inner Light (found here), Crystalized Silver, Raging Storm, as well as elemental variations of Desert Storm. I am also considering the Wildheart and maybe this Sublime Marshal. Any suggestions to add to this list would be appreciated.
Sadly, I do not have much advice on the Raging Storm discipline at this point. I have very little practical experience with it. I rolled up a level one swordsage for a PbP that never went more than two or three combats, and I have a player in a game running a druid/swordsage with a PrC I made up based on the RKV which uses Raging Storm, but he barely ever uses it, and he only uses stuff that can be used in melee.

I'd designed it to be used with the sublime way ranger RadicalTaoist  created years ago, but it seems like a good fit for swordsage as well. Given my rule about crusaders picking one extra discipline, I'd let them have access as well.
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Offline veekie

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Offline TC X0 Lt 0X

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Re: DMing Martial Adept Gestalt Game with Homebrew Disciplines. Advice Needed.
« Reply #6 on: November 29, 2012, 05:31:50 PM »
5) Immunities do not exist (with a few exceptions). If a creature has an Immunity normally, it instead gains a bonus to saves or any other roll it would otherwise have to take against the effect equal to it's HD in the case of a racial Immunity, Class Level in the case of a class granted Immunity, or caster level in the case of a spell/power/etc (Minimum +10).

I would advise against basing the immunity off of HD; I'd have it be a flat bonus (+5, or maybe up to +10). Normally speaking, the DC of an effect goes up with the originator's HD, and the saves bonuses for the defender also go up by HD. Having the immunity "bonus" also based on HD makes the save bonus use double-HD for the calculation. The side-effect of this is that as a creature gains HD, it becomes more and more immune. I think it should be relative to the attacker, just how saves normally work. A single, static modifier would work just fine here.

Now, in terms of damage, basing the Energy Resistance off of HD is a good idea, since damage and HP scale with HD. The resistance should scale as well.

Yeah I guess that makes sense.

I would also like to utilize some House rule that allows Adepts to Learn additional Maneuvers Known beyond the normal progression of classes without needing to spend resources such as feats or retraining Maneuvers Known, as Encountering unknown Disciplines throughout their travels will be a big part of the game. I want it to be possible to get maneuvers known from a discipline easy enough, but also not be so abusable that each character will be able to learn every Maneuver they encounter and have have potentially no limit to the Maneuvers they could learn.
I allow Crusaders to pick one fourth discipline at first level that they have access to. Once the choice is made, they cannot change it.

As for homebrew disciplines, I'd be fine with letting a swordsage swap one of their six disciplines for a new one. If it seemed like it should be warblade or crusader-only, I might object, but swordsages seem to have the most versatility both in the number of disciplines they get and in the wide variety of effects they can access.

I was thinking that at least at first, the Adept will be limited to the normal number of Disciplines they normally have access to
(3 Crusader, 6 Swordsage, 5 Warblade). They could then choose from there list what those Disciplines would be.
Increasing Crusaders to 4 seems fair too.

I also plan to use some Homebre maneuvers from the interwebs as well as some Homebrew Martial Adept Classes. So far I will be using Falling Star, Abjurant Champion, Phantasmal Opus, Phoenix Tear, and Inner Light (found here), Crystalized Silver, Raging Storm, as well as elemental variations of Desert Storm. I am also considering the Wildheart and maybe this Sublime Marshal. Any suggestions to add to this list would be appreciated.
Sadly, I do not have much advice on the Raging Storm discipline at this point. I have very little practical experience with it. I rolled up a level one swordsage for a PbP that never went more than two or three combats, and I have a player in a game running a druid/swordsage with a PrC I made up based on the RKV which uses Raging Storm, but he barely ever uses it, and he only uses stuff that can be used in melee.

I'd designed it to be used with the sublime way ranger RadicalTaoist  created years ago, but it seems like a good fit for swordsage as well. Given my rule about crusaders picking one extra discipline, I'd let them have access as well.

I have been actually running Raging Storm  a bit on my Electromaster (DM is allowing it with Warblade) and it seems to be doing quite well.
Character in link is a little outdated from the current version FYI.
« Last Edit: November 29, 2012, 05:45:15 PM by TC X0 Lt 0X »
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Offline TC X0 Lt 0X

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Re: DMing Martial Adept Gestalt Game with Homebrew Disciplines. Advice Needed.
« Reply #7 on: December 01, 2012, 02:57:50 AM »
So how about this for learning Martial maneuvers beyond the normal limit for characters?

Quote
Characters can learn new maneuvers depending on their current XP total. Every character has a Pool of Training Points (TP) equal to their XP Total. by spending these points, they can learn new maneuvers or stances, or gain access to Disciplines normally unavailable to them.

Learn a new Maneuver               1000 TP * Level
Learn a new Stance                     2000 TP * Level
Gain access to a New Discipline   10000 TP

You can learn any Maneuver/Stance provided you have access to the Discipline (either inherently do to your class, or by spending TP) and meet it's normal prerequisites. Gaining access to a new Discipline requires you to have observed the discipline in use, as well as know at least one maneuver from another discipline in the same school (see below) and meet all the normal requirements of using the school.

All Disciplines are divided into Schools, do to similarities in technique and/or theme. For instance, the Desert Wind and Phoenix Tear Disciplines are part of the School of Elemental Fire, while the Frozen Zephyr and Crystallized Silver Disciplines are part of the School of Elemental Water.
Some Disciplines are part of more then one school, and knowledge of these Disciplines allows a Martial Adept to gain access to other Discipline Schools normally beyond their capabilities. For instance, Desert Wind is part of the School of Elemental Fire, while Devoted Spirit is part of the School of Faith, and each is normally exclusive from one another. However Phoenix Tear is part of  both the School of Elemental Fire and School of Faith. If a Martial Adept decides to learn Phoenix Tear, they also open up the possibility of gaining access to either Devoted Spirit or Desert Wind in the future.

I was thinking this way my players would have the option to pursue other martial disciplines without having to spend other character resources and at the same time not be able to simply learn whatever disciple they happen to come across without any thought on the matter.
Any thoughts on this?




How about some Rising Spirit?

I actually do have plans to use this as one of the disciplines my players will encounter and potentially be able to learn in the adventure.
« Last Edit: December 01, 2012, 03:01:54 AM by TC X0 Lt 0X »
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Offline Unbeliever

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Re: DMing Martial Adept Gestalt Game with Homebrew Disciplines. Advice Needed.
« Reply #8 on: December 01, 2012, 01:03:51 PM »
Does having more maneuvers really lead to an increase in firepower? 

I think it depends how much you want to encourage them to learn new techniques, even new techniques that are kind of orthogonal to their build?  If so, then you don't want to have much of a cost associated with it.  Otherwise, I don't know how often players will take you up on the invitation to learn at the feet of the masters.  Or, if they do, they only will for things that fit well with their builds.

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Re: DMing Martial Adept Gestalt Game with Homebrew Disciplines. Advice Needed.
« Reply #9 on: December 01, 2012, 01:19:08 PM »

How about some Rising Spirit?

I actually do have plans to use this as one of the disciplines my players will encounter and potentially be able to learn in the adventure.
Woo! Do toss us any feedback on how it functions, might help with refining it further, or future homebrewing.


As for learning additional maneuvers, the gain is mainly significant in the boosts and stances, which have fairly varied usages. The pricing looks fairly reasonable, other than accessing a new discipline, which is too hefty. For the most part picking up additional maneuvers is tricky enough to meet the prereqs before having to deal with an entrance fee. I'd probably make unlocking new schools purely narrative based, and go from there.
« Last Edit: December 01, 2012, 01:24:17 PM by veekie »
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Re: DMing Martial Adept Gestalt Game with Homebrew Disciplines. Advice Needed.
« Reply #10 on: December 03, 2012, 11:07:13 AM »
Quote
4)For the purposes of qualifying for Dual Progression Prestige Classes which provide Martial Adept Progression (Ex. Jade Phoenix Mage, Ruby Knight Vindicator), Maenuvers/Stances from the Martial Adept class cannot be used to meet class requirements. However any additional Martial Adept classes used on the other side of the gestalt can be used to qualify. In addition, Maneuver Known from the Primary Martial Adept class are treated as being known by any other Martial Adept class the character has for meeting requirements. Additional Maneuvers Known from Prestige classes can be added to Primary Martial Adept Class, but Maneuvers Readied/Granted cannot.

Reading this gave me a headache.

It also seems bizarre and arbitrary as well as being gameable in a few different ways, mainly dipping a secondary MA level or using feats to qualify, then retraining them (assuming retraining is allowed.)

Lastly, it doesn't answer the first question that comes to mind when you talk about dual progression classes in gestalt: do they take up both sides of your progression?

Offline TC X0 Lt 0X

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Re: DMing Martial Adept Gestalt Game with Homebrew Disciplines. Advice Needed.
« Reply #11 on: December 03, 2012, 07:19:57 PM »
It only take one side.
The Martial Adept Side can only have levels of the one Martial Adept Class chosen.

Im not following what you me by retraining qualifications.
« Last Edit: December 03, 2012, 07:22:25 PM by TC X0 Lt 0X »
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Offline veekie

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Re: DMing Martial Adept Gestalt Game with Homebrew Disciplines. Advice Needed.
« Reply #12 on: December 03, 2012, 11:53:37 PM »
Basically the same as caster-gestalt and the usual issues with dual progressing those. I don't see any particular problem with how that's done.
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Offline TC X0 Lt 0X

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Re: DMing Martial Adept Gestalt Game with Homebrew Disciplines. Advice Needed.
« Reply #13 on: December 09, 2012, 06:31:32 AM »
Cause I have great distaste for Save or Die effects (or worse just Die Effects) I am introducing this Houserule:

Quote
Effects that outright kill those effected instead apply the Perishing condition.
Perishing: The characters current and Max HP are reduced by half when this condition is gained, and is further reduced by three times the level of the character which inflicted this condition at the end of each of the character's turn. The character takes ability damage to all it's ability scores equal to 1/4 the level of the character which inflicted this condition. The character is also Slowed for as long as it has this condition.
This condition can be removed using any effect that can remove Energy Drain or by any effect which restores HP equal to the amount of damage this effect would deal at the start of each round (healing from multiple sources do not remove this condition). In addition the character is allowed a Fortitude Save at the start of it's turn (DC 10 + Inflicter's Level).
In instances where the effect is a spell, spell-like ability, power, or maneuver use it's Caster/Manifester/Initator level in place of the inflicter's level and the normal Save and DC of the effect if it offers one in place of the Fortitude Save.

I am also probably going to allow the Sublime Rogue with an altered Discipline list and the Sublime Marshal earlier mentioned with it's BAB reduced a step and it's HD dropped to a d8.

Any thoughts?
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Offline sirpercival

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Re: DMing Martial Adept Gestalt Game with Homebrew Disciplines. Advice Needed.
« Reply #14 on: December 09, 2012, 07:38:09 AM »
Man, being Necropolitan got a lot better...
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Offline TC X0 Lt 0X

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Re: DMing Martial Adept Gestalt Game with Homebrew Disciplines. Advice Needed.
« Reply #15 on: December 09, 2012, 07:46:18 AM »
I suppose it is easier to get negative energy healing for Undead then it is to get regular healing =P
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Offline sirpercival

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Re: DMing Martial Adept Gestalt Game with Homebrew Disciplines. Advice Needed.
« Reply #16 on: December 09, 2012, 07:53:01 AM »
Plus they're immune to ability damage and to energy drain...
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Offline TC X0 Lt 0X

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Re: DMing Martial Adept Gestalt Game with Homebrew Disciplines. Advice Needed.
« Reply #17 on: December 09, 2012, 09:02:07 AM »
Immunities don't exist in this game. See the other House Rules.
Though they do have a bonus against the effects.
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