Building a dwarfen brawler

[Dwarfi]

Thanks, that helps a lot as a guide.

Now I have 84-100k GP to spend on items.
I guess for the start:

Fanged ring 10k
Monk belt 13k
Anklets of translocation 1.4k
Handy haversack 2k
Cloak of protection+3 9k
Bracers of armor+3 9k
Boots of flying 16k
Necklace of natural weapons +1 eager/warning parrying 27k

sounds good. Maybe switching something for a CON/ STR push ?

[muktidata]

Dump Wisdom and wear armor and a masterwork dastana and chahar-aina.

[Jackinthegreen]

Dump Wisdom and wear armor and a masterwork dastana and chahar-aina.

Considering he's set on Fist of the Forest, armor is a no-go.

[Dwarfi]

I will stick to it.

SO start stats
18/8/18/14/8/6
the extra ab. points from Lv4/8/12... obviously CON
so on Lv12 He will be 18/8/21/8/6

Although the charsheet you posted is somewhat confusing.
He has to start with the stats above, but with a +6 belt of str and health I already reach 24 STR/24 CON, where did all the remaining AB points go ? (The sheet is for a Lv20 char so there should be 5 points somewhere if I am not mistaken) And then there are the manuels... although I dont expect to get some of those. ^^

[Solo]

I may have started on a different point buy than you.

[Dwarfi]

True. ^^

Sorry for asking so much stuff, but calculating item prizes was always my weak spot.

How does the worth of a
monks belt (13k)
calculate if you add of battle (12k)
Strength
and Health + 6

Lets say for now I would prefer a Monks belt of battle of STR/Health +2 How much would that cost ?

[Prime32]

Adding extra effects to the same item costs +50% (treating the most expensive effect as the base effect), unless it's one of the "essentials" detailed in MIC like ability score boosts.

Monk's belt = 13k (base item)
Belt of battle = 12k * 1.5 = +18k
Str +2 = +4k
Con +2 = +4k

Total price = 36,000gp

[Dwarfi]

Thanks a lot , very helpful.

I am currently writing down skillpoints and all the stuff.

A check, just to be save it correct:
Ranger2/ monk2/ Ranger1/ Deepw 2/ Fist otf 3/ Kensai 2

my BAB is +10/+5.

Impr. Unarmed attack + Monk Belt (equal Lv7monk)+ hammer fist 1d8 + 1.5str on nat. w. damage. Usually its only the STR dmg, right ?
Flurry of blows  - does a monk belt adjust that too ? -1/-1 or +4/+4
Unarmed damage (F.o.t.f.) +2 monk weapon category on unarmed dmg >1d10 > 2d6 dmg
Untamed strike > unarmed = magical weapon (If I upgrade it with Kensai, does it become a ghostweapon?)

And Kensai can give me a +5 beard /fists... So on a Full Attack I attack : Beard/Beard/Bite /haste/snap kick

Fanged Ring/Impr. nat. attack - So ONE of my nat attacks (fists/ beard) now do 3d6 dmg ? And 1 CON dmg on a 20 crit.
Kensai: Can you actually choose your beard (I assume this is just a renaming of fists for the flavor)? Does the "unarmed strike 3d6" still count for this ?
If so I now have a +2 beard/fist. XD

Strongarm ranger - Powerattack. Is that from Dragon Mag ? If so I cant use it. I will simply replace Poison healer with PA.
Poison healer was a fun feat anyway. Not

The fist of the forest says it destroys all gloves and shoes worn... so I cant wear shoes ??  Loosing shoes would be pretty big loss. Cant imagine its meant that way.

With snap kick I could do 1 extra attack. Like a "haste" attack. Does the penalty go on this attack too ?

[Jackinthegreen]

Yes, strongarm ranger is from Dragon.  326 to be precise.

And much like the gloves, Feral Trance destroying magical shoes is totally asinine and you should do your best to show that it should, at best, be interpreted as only destroying non-magical items.  After all, one of the notes on magic clothing and jewelry is that it resizes based on the wearer, so it changing shape to work with the wearer's body should work quite well.

Also note that Razorclaw Shifters don't have to worry about their gloves being destroyed despite them actually gaining claw attacks unlike the FotF.

Yes, Snap Kick behaves like Haste.  Or TWF.  You get the extra attack at your full bonus, but all attacks take a -2 penalty to hit.

You'll need Power Attack to get into Fist of the Forest, so make sure you can get it from somewhere other than ranger if Dragon isn't allowed.

If you're looking at TWF for unarmed strikes, not that there is a lot of contradictory official information about how monks do TWF.  You might want to look at http://www.enworld.org/forum/showthread.php?88125-WotC-ruling-on-TWF-Flurry-of-Blows to see exactly how mucked up it is.

[muktidata]

For something like 8,100g (check the Spellcasting Services table) you can have a Permanent Greater Magic Fang from a level 20 Druid cast on your Unarmed Strike (whole body).

I still don't like Monk here. I think you'd be better off coughing up the feat for Improved UA Strike and getting Pounce out of Barbarian and/or Improved Trip. That'd get you into Fist of the Forest a level earlier and you could progress:

Ranger 1/Barbarian 1-2/Ranger 2-3/Fist of the Forest 1/Deepwarden 2/Kensai X

[Dwarfi]

Thanks for your thoughts, but I like the monk flavor wise.

Still looking over the items:

+2STR 4k
+2 CON 4k
+2 AC Bracers 4k
+2 Cloak of prot. 4k
Haversack 2k
Boots of flying and translocation ~18k
Fanged Ring 10k
Neck of nat weapon (1)eager, (1) warning, (2) transmuting or (2)holy (a holy beard XD) (2k/8k/18k/32k(for one of the+2 ench))

Monks belt 13k of health +2 CON (+4k) of battle +18k
or
Ring of speed 12k (gives a haste spell for some round on myself wasnt it ?)
or vest of free movement 12k (with the anklet that shouldnt be necessary)

Gloves of titans grip or some other fancy stuff ?

Could somebody please doublecheck if the dmg is correct ?
See post above

Beard(+2) 4d6+1.5STR (Hammer fist) ?
MonkLv7 1d8 > 2d6 (ring) >3d6 >4d6 (Fist of the forest)
In the example he actually has 6d6, but I dont see where that comes from, even on lv20.

[muktidata]

I'm not trying to prove my suggestion of Barbarian, but it seems to me that you're spending 18k for an ability you could just take a class level for and have it at-will. Technically, sure, you could use your Belt of Battle for a ton of different things. But I think in practice, it will become a 3/day move action for 18,000g. I just wanted to point that out.

I just looked up Fanged Ring because I've never seen it. Really? It gives Imp Unarmed Strike and you still want to take Monk? I'm a guy who plays a pure, no-dip no-prc, monk in 3 campaigns (including a Half Elf Monk in a core campaign) and I cannot condone this.

Other items I suggest:

Wands (hand them over to your friendly spellcaster or leadership a buffer):
Enlarge Person 750g
Mighty Wallop 750g
Shield 750g
Mage Armor 750g

- Champion's Belt (or whatever) - Worship Kord (you are a Dwarf), take True Believer, ROFLtrip - you'd have to move Monk's Belt to a different slot, but items like this are great in my mind because it's such a bargain

- If you have a FoM item available for 12k, take it. Suddenly you're aquaman, immune to Colossal grapples (or just stupidly high grapple checks of random monsters), entangle, and other things that impede you. If you're not able to move, you're not able to beard-slap.

- Boots of Agile Leaping put onto your Boots of Fly. They cost 600, so that's 900g for Swift Action stand-from-prone if you put 5 ranks in balance.

Item's I'd stay away from:

Ring of Haste - You're level 12. I assume there's a spellcaster among you that can cast 3rd level spells.

Bracers of AC - Just have someone Mage Armor you, really. Bracers = 4k for 2AC. Wands of Shield and Mage armor = 1.5k for 8AC.

Just some thoughts.

Edit:

For calculating damage, what I would do if I were you is ignore whatever post you read that showed only the result of stacking. If I were you, I would calculate it yourself using the books, then post it here for peer counsel. Not just the result, but post the process you used.

[Dwarfi]

I will put some thought into it.
Thanks.

Will see what I can come up with. I have about a week, at the most 2 left for this character.
If my group survives the current endboss encounter I can start playing this fella.

If they die we start from Lv1 and I take some sort of beguiler gnome or halfling ^^

[Jackinthegreen]

Ranger 1/Barbarian 1-2/Ranger 2-3/Fist of the Forest 1/Deepwarden 2/Kensai X

Bit of a problem there with alignment.  Barbs lose Rage when becoming lawful, and Kensai requires lawful.

[Solo]

Well, the good news is that he can now take Barbarian prestige classes.

[Dwarfi]

As much as I would like to replace ranger and monk, I cant get them out without removing deepwarden too.
As I would otherwise have problems to get all the skills needed for the PrC. And monk frees up feat slots by giving me C.Exp. +Impr trip for free (needed for Kensai)


Thought about Barb/Fight instead,. Fight would give the same number of feats as a monk but better BAB(bad saves) The unarmed dmg stays the same. He just gets less Skills (Balance, and Dipl missing - I would get balance from DW though.
------

soooo. I really dont see a way around the ranger (skills and endurance) and barbarian doesnt really work either. But I could replace Monk with fighter for a little better BAB, worse saves and lacking some skills. In which case I will have to dump 10 skillpoints into dipl for 5 ranks --° This is the big problem.

Hmmm....
IF I would kick out Deepwarden, I wouldnt need endurance (Ranger) anymore and way less skills. (But loosing again a lot of saves and AC)
Therefore I COULD Take Something that gives me diplomacy Like monk (2) for the Comb. Exp./Trip
and then switch into fighter for bonus feats. and better bab.... now lacking handle animal ^^.

[muktidata]

Barbarian 1/Ranger 3/Fist of the Forest 1/Deepwarden 2/Runescarred Berserker X

That is a pretty slick build. If TWF works with UA strikes, then more power to it. Take Steadfast Determination and Indomitable Soul to laugh at mind-affecting stuff (Iron Will is already a requirement of Runescarred Berserker). Hammer Fist and Superior Unarmed Strike help boost your damage. We've already been through magic items. At level 16th level you run around in an Antimagic field pummeling the opposition.

[Dwarfi]

IF I go this route I would go regular barbarian in the end, as we are not that much into the oriental stuff... The runescarred doesnt even look that interesting to me.
Some rune magic I dont understand and frost res.
And with that I could go for a barb/fighter mix only as I dont really need any high skill numbers for Prc.


The only thing I am not sure about the old build is the same as for the barb build:
How do Monks belt+ fist of the forest+Fanged ring interact ?
Impr Unarmed dmg Monk+belt (1d8)
Fanged Ring >2d6
Fist of the forest Lv1 >3d6 Lv3 >4d6
Sup. unarmed >5d6
Hammer fist: 1.5 STR


Lets make a test:
Ranger3 or fighter 2 (see 2H fighting) +Barb> Fotf>more barb

The other items you mentioned: true believer + some belt. What exactly and where is it from ?
 - see 2H fighting/Fist of the forest3/Barbarian
The BAB is maxed ! And I have +20 ft speed. A rage+  feral trance.
BUT I will have problems with AC and my saves are VERY low.

Feats: 1:Gr. Fort 3:PA+ Ranger(endurance) (if fighter: Endurance+steadfast det.)
Lv6:Sup. Unarmed
Lv9: Snap kick
Lv12: Hammer fist
- Lv16 Flying kick ? Quick recovery ?
The other items you mentioned: true believer + some belt. What exactly and where is it from ?

Beartotem or pounce are options. Although I can as well just stay this way too.
It has way more fighting power then the last one, but way less defensive.
The saves are....bad, to say the least. St. determ pushes it up to ... maybe10 at best.

[Dwarfi]

Compare:
The deepwarden/Kensai build : BAB +10/+5 SV: 12/9/11 And a great AC

The barb/Fighter/Fotf build: 10ft more movement: BAB +12/+7/+2 SV: 10/5/3 A small AC bonus by fotf. but for that I could just wear a mithrall breastplate instead. (oh the money)
The rage helps a little in terms of the will save proble, as well as st. determination.
The dmg may be slightly smaller as I dont get Snap kick and Hammer fists that  early, but Feral trance and the Kensai power boost (+8Str) are really good too.

Difficult to choose.
One is a very fun tank build with slapping beards, the other has way more damage.
I like the simplicity of the 2nd build, but it somewhat doesnt work for me.
I like the idea of this forest monk going for the beardslap.

Another one around the frostrager:
Ranger 3 (2H fighting and endurance )
Barbarian 3
Fist of t forest 1 or all 3 Lvs
Frostrager 5
(maybe cont. Fotf)

Feats:
1- Gr. Fort
3- P.A.
6- Frozen Rager (stupid feat )
9- St. determination
12- Sup. Unarmed strike

A little short on feats this time, would like to get hammer fist in there by 12 ^^
I could get pounce or Impr grab in there for ACF Barb.

The saves are slightly better. I will still need Cloak of prot and stuff like that.
AC: 10 +6 (CON) +1 (monks belt) +Ac penalty in rage is negated by the con bonus. +Frostrage +6 (does frostrage and regular rage stack ?) ~23AC
I could increase the AC by a positive DEX score, but that will be hard to do.

+1 natural weapons - The only mean to get magical fists would be Kensai or gr. magic fang.

[Dwarfi]

I am currently checking on of all those feats and stats work together and I think some of them dont stack at all.

Items:
monk belt: Would increase to 1d8
Fanged ring. 1 size bigger, that would be 2d6

Ok so far.
Now 2 levels from Fotf. 2d8 > 3d6 (Monk dmg table)

Sup. Unarmed would be wasted, as I dont read it as stacking, Except for the 4 Monk Levels, which doesnt help us, as the dmg already increased beghind that point.

Hammer fists is still good
Snap Kick is great, especially if combined with the Frostrager and 2Hfighting.