Author Topic: Interpreting Rules -- Procedure vs. Directive  (Read 6466 times)

Offline wotmaniac

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Interpreting Rules -- Procedure vs. Directive
« on: April 13, 2013, 05:00:51 PM »
I happened upon this article, and it got me thinking: Are Directives "rules"?
(this is far from the first time I've thought about this; it just so happens that the article is simply serving as the catalyst for this thread)

The reason this is an issue for me is exemplified by the CharOp culture, and the tortured logic used to get to "RAW".
Is RAW just procedure?  According to CharOp, this seems to be the case.  However, I posit that directives are also "rules".

Of course, before this question can be answered, you first must make a determination of what the rules "mean". 
First is separating the 2 distinct varieties of "fluff": directive and imagery.  In my experience, one of the main hurdles players encounter in making this distinction is the fact that authors oftentimes don't make clear their intent on where that line is supposed to be drawn ... which relegates that role to (often biased) inference.

Once that is done, there are, essentially, 3 basic approaches (sure, there are intermediate gradients, as well as exceptions; but these are the primary benchmarks):
a) procedure is paramount; and the fluff is simply (dismissible) suggested context (which involves skipping that first step -- which seems to happen all the damn time);
b) fluff is paramount; and the procedure is simply a suggested tool with which to implement said fluff (often involves also skipping that first step, just with completely different ends as option "a");
c) procedure and directive is inextricably linked -- without one, the other is meaningless.

For the most part, I'm a proponent of option "c".

The one example that immediately jumps in to my head 3.5's Leadership feat. 
(click to show/hide)
Now, before anybody goes flying off the handle over my interpretation of Leadership, please keep in mind that it was simply an example only meant to clarify my point -- don't miss the forest for the trees.


So, what do you guys think?

Offline Unbeliever

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Re: Interpreting Rules -- Procedure vs. Directive
« Reply #1 on: April 14, 2013, 11:29:44 AM »
I don't really know if this is a helpful distinction.  It seems conflate advice with rules mechanics.  For example, one of the few things I really like from Burning Wheel is the trait vote system.  At the end of a session people go around the table and decide whether, based on what happened in the session, role-playing, etc., a character should gain or lose a trait.  You might have earned the affections of Lady Smithe and therefore the enmity of Lord Smithe.  If I ever get back into White Wolf, I will almost assuredly adopt a similar mechanic for Humanity and other morality systems.

This strikes me as a perfectly cognizable rule.  It's vaguer and more freeform than Initiative, but it's still perfectly clear as a rule.  I'm not quite sure why I'd distinguish between a trait vote and initiative.  Advice on various issues around the table, while incredibly important (perhaps more than many of the rules of a game), is advice or counsel.  Not rules. 

More generally, I come from a law background.  And, a lot of that revolves around interpretive practice, which is what I think the OP is really considering.  RAW is not really much of an interpretive practice:  if the rules as written were particularly clear you wouldn't need to do much interpretation.  What is needed, instead, is a set of interpretive principles.  What law refers to as canons.  Otherwise, you end up with tortured linguistic debates, which presume that, contrary to all available evidence, RPG writers intended their texts to be subjected to Talmudic interpretation.  Which, as a side note, is a level of care that is not assumed for legislatures, who are, or at least can hire, trained professionals to write their rules. 

Off the top of my head, good interpretive principles for RPGs are things like, making the rule fit within the general framework of the game.  So, if there's a departure, it should be for a good reason.  And, then I leaven that with a bit of a sense of whether something is broken or not -- which I tend to view holistically (e.g., is a warrior with Boomerang Daze more broken than ye olde Druid) -- and ease of play around the table. 

Offline awaken_D_M_golem

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Re: Interpreting Rules -- Procedure vs. Directive
« Reply #2 on: April 14, 2013, 03:34:18 PM »
In the same neighborhood is the:
Monsters take Ability Focus, but PCs can/can't.

4e got ~half way there, with the Monsters and
the PCs basically sharing a larger (!) pile of stuff.


But I definitely agree that some of the R.A.I. can be
inferred from the surrounding fluff or descriptive text.
Your codpiece is a mimic.

Offline wotmaniac

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Re: Interpreting Rules -- Procedure vs. Directive
« Reply #3 on: April 15, 2013, 01:17:37 AM »
I don't really know if this is a helpful distinction.  It seems conflate advice with rules mechanics.
I see what you're getting at; but that's not really what I'm trying to do.
To the contrary, I'm saying that "fluff" needs to be separated out, wherein you identify the difference between "imagery", "advice", and "directives".  "Directives", presumably, are "rules", meaning that there are 2 different kinds of rules (procedural and directive) -- both of which are on equal footing.  The conflation issue is a function of shitty technical writing.
At what point does advice stop simply being "advice", and move in to the realm of "this is the explicit intent; otherwise you're doing it wrong"?
Take the "Adaptation" paragraph in the description of many PrCs for example.  As far as I'm concerned, this is "rules" for how to implement said PrC ("directive", if you will, as opposed to "procedure"), despite the fact that the grammar and verbiage appears to simply be "advice".
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What is needed, instead, is a set of interpretive principles. 
YES!  :clap
And in some ways, I guess, this is part and parcel to my overall point in this thread.

In the same neighborhood is the:
Monsters take Ability Focus, but PCs can/can't.
Um ... perhaps I'm more/less permissive than others; but I'm not sure that is quite what I'm getting at. 
I'm not necessarily talking about stuff like "just because it happens to appear in a particular book" -- that's a lot more inference than I'm prepared to make. 
In my example, OTOH, there were literally 2100+ words dedicated to explaining the role and use of party NPCs, followed immediately by a feat that gave PCs a specific game mechanic with which to interact with said NPCs.
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But I definitely agree that some of the R.A.I. can be
inferred from the surrounding fluff or descriptive text.
Yes.
Except I'm taking it a step further; which is to say: depending on the larger context, descriptive text can be tantamount to "rules" on equal footing with the rules mechanics for (for example) using Power Attack or casting Magic Missile.
Given the status quo, that seems like a pretty big assertion.

Offline Unbeliever

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Re: Interpreting Rules -- Procedure vs. Directive
« Reply #4 on: April 15, 2013, 07:34:56 PM »
I'm glad you included an example b/c I was trying to figure out what might fall into the "fluff masquerading as rules" or vice-versa that the OP is directed towards. 

I just don't have a pile of these that readily spring to mind.  To take the specific example of Adaptation sections.  I view these as invitations to house rule or modify.  They aren't really rules in that they're obviously optional.  So, they can't really be called rules.  They're like house rule suggestions.  I would put them in the same category as Unearthed Arcana:  it's optional, though once you flip the switch it's totally a rule. 

Maybe here's another example?  There seems to be some debate as to what extent classes exist as a concept in the game world.  This comes up with multiclassing, where some DMs will require a character to engage in various actions to "learn" how to take a new level in class X.  I happen to find this fairly bonkers, but whatever.  That's an instance where there is some fluff, debatably at least, this class thingy, that is seen as informing what look to be hard and fast rules (character progression).  Or, is that not a good example at all? 

Do people really try to import fluff into rules?  And, if so, how do they go about doing it?  I mean, the second someone says "Trolls have big noses, just look at the picture, so they have scent and a -2 to save against airborne toxins" I'm probably going to be really uncomfortable.  On the other hand, if someone uses a Magic Missile to light something (briefly), especially if their stated magical style has been to describe them as bright streaks of light, I'm probably all for that.  So, maybe I'm just an inconsistent bastard. 

Offline NiteCyper

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Re: Interpreting Rules -- Procedure vs. Directive
« Reply #5 on: April 15, 2013, 08:09:41 PM »
Directives can be rules or not rules, because one exception breaks all. When typos exist, what isn't a typo? Only interpretation can tell.
« Last Edit: April 15, 2013, 08:12:09 PM by NiteCyper »
What? NiteCyper's post is evolving!

Offline wotmaniac

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Re: Interpreting Rules -- Procedure vs. Directive
« Reply #6 on: April 17, 2013, 05:44:50 AM »
I'm glad you included an example b/c I was trying to figure out what might fall into the "fluff masquerading as rules" or vice-versa that the OP is directed towards.

I just don't have a pile of these that readily spring to mind. 
Do you know how every spell in the Spell Compendium has that imagery text that precedes the actual spell description?  Well, I've had people who want to use that as rules.  And to tell you the truth, there are times that I have problems arguing with them ... hell, there's been a couple of times that I've found myself doing it too.  It's a matter of us wanting to keep character actions grounded in the fiction.  As a matter of fact, I've gone so far as to designate the Bite of the WereXXX line of spells as being in the polymorph sub-school; because when you read that preface, you're turning into a lycanthrope's hybrid form. 
And then they go and pull some shit like this ....
Quote from: Spell Compendium
As you intone the words of power to release this spell,[...]
... on a spell that only has SOMATIC components!  :facepalm

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Maybe here's another example?  There seems to be some debate as to what extent classes exist as a concept in the game world.  This comes up with multiclassing, where some DMs will require a character to engage in various actions to "learn" how to take a new level in class X.  I happen to find this fairly bonkers, but whatever.  That's an instance where there is some fluff, debatably at least, this class thingy, that is seen as informing what look to be hard and fast rules (character progression).  Or, is that not a good example at all? 
For all practical purposes, all that happened when they threw that bit about "special training to level-up" in the DMG was to give asinine DMs an excuse to say "if it didn't happen on-screen, it didn't happen"; despite the previous paragraph in that sidebar saying "just assume that they're doing all that, and just let them level-up".  (personally, I think that was just them throwing a bone to the gygaxian greybeards)
Moving away from D&D for a bit .... 
As much as I hate Apocalypse World with every fiber of my being, I have to admit that it is one of the best pieces of technical writing in RPGs.  They pretty much lay it out as "do it like this, or it's wrongbadfun"; and not necessarily in a bad way either (unlike WW) ... they are just unapologetic about embracing the sentiment down there in my sig (1st line).  As for "rules" ..... the text is very explicit about when something is just imagery, advice, and when it is a "hard" directive.  I've only read through it a couple of times, but I remember being rather impressed at how tight everything was written.
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I mean, the second someone says "Trolls have big noses, just look at the picture, so they have scent and a -2 to save against airborne toxins" I'm probably going to be really uncomfortable.  On the other hand, if someone uses a Magic Missile to light something (briefly), especially if their stated magical style has been to describe them as bright streaks of light, I'm probably all for that.  So, maybe I'm just an inconsistent bastard.
Well, the 1st example is making up a mechanical change out of whole cloth.  The 2nd actually has precedence, and seems to follow the Rule of Cool (as long as people don't try to abuse it).

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To take the specific example of Adaptation sections.  I view these as invitations to house rule or modify.  They aren't really rules in that they're obviously optional.  So, they can't really be called rules.  They're like house rule suggestions.
Yeah, I was always dissatisfied with the weakness of that verbiage.  Especially considering the way PrCs were originally presented, which was to say "here's what a PrC is, and here are some examples of what they might look like -- now go make your own".  But then they realized how many people don't want to do the work and are willing to pay money to have everything spoon-fed to them (don't get me wrong, I'm not necessarily making a character judgement with that).
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I would put them in the same category as Unearthed Arcana:  it's optional, though once you flip the switch it's totally a rule.
Hmm.  I think I like that. 
... and I like how you put it.

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Do people really try to import fluff into rules?  And, if so, how do they go about doing it?
I'm immediately reminded of that whole boondoggle that arose out of the use of the word "innate".
As it turned out, oops, they happened to use the same word 2 different ways across different contexts, but never bothered to neither define it nor distinguish the different uses (as per FAQ).  As I see it, if you're gonna have a specific word that is used to mean a very specific thing, you should try to define it at some point.  I mean, they even spent time and space in the PHB Glossary to define enemy (with that oh-so-helpful definition of "a creature that is unfriendly to you -- what was the point?)


Offline ksbsnowowl

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Re: Interpreting Rules -- Procedure vs. Directive
« Reply #7 on: April 17, 2013, 01:56:55 PM »
OT from the purpose of the thread, but your interpretation of Leadership would prevent an Othlor (elder Hathran) from having a younger Hathran as her cohort, which is pretty much explicitly the purpose of Hathran requiring the Leadership feat.

Offline wotmaniac

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Re: Interpreting Rules -- Procedure vs. Directive
« Reply #8 on: April 28, 2013, 08:07:41 PM »
I was thinking about best practices in regards to establishing interpretive principles (thanks, Unbeliever).
The following was a bit of a tirade that I made over on TGD, and I wanted to get your guys' take:

I whole-heartedly agree that any given play group should feel free to use a particular game any which way they feel like ..... they should just be prepared for and accept the fact that they may end up producing some undesirable results -- and that they won't have any place to bitch when things do go wrong.
Point being -- I run in to arguments all the time (both at table and on the web) that basically boil down to people not taking this fact in to account.  And this includes differences in interpretation.
For example, we have mountains of records from game designers (namely from various editions of d&d) that give us plenty of insight to the inside of their minds.  Fluff text in the actual game(s) aside, just from various articles, playtest journals, interviews, personal websites, etc., we actually do know how their brains work; and we also know that there are various rules (even the basic function of the system(s) as a whole) that were written with a certain bias towards a certain kind of play.

Something that I always keep in mind when perusing a particular piece of RPG material is the mind of the author.  Also remember that what you're reading was most likely written by someone who:
1) is just a fanboy that decided that writing for RPG for a living would be really cool; without consideration for whether or not it is a viable life choice (and let's face it - economically, it usually isn't) ;
2) if they went to college, they most likely are someone who thought it was a good idea to through tens-of-thousands of dollars at a B.-fucking-A. (usually english lit or some shit)
Point being, these aren't exactly the best-of-the-best that the world has to offer -- if they had any real writing chops, they'd probably have a different day-job/career path. (of course, that's just a hunch)

All that being said, does anyone really have a valid position when they bitch about a game that doesn't do what it wasn't meant to do?



OT from the purpose of the thread, but your interpretation of Leadership would prevent an Othlor (elder Hathran) from having a younger Hathran as her cohort, which is pretty much explicitly the purpose of Hathran requiring the Leadership feat.
I'm gonna have to take issue with this assertion .....
1) Leadership is not required for Hathran .... though, they do get a special cohort for free.
2) This is a special cohort that is inherent to the class; which has very specific restrictions.  Furthermore, said cohort is completely independent of any they may get from Leadership (which they don't have to take). 
Hathran is a specific *thing*, and thus operates on it's own relative rules; which would make this a case of "specific trumps general".  At most, this is just a specific exception to base expectations.

Offline ksbsnowowl

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Re: Interpreting Rules -- Procedure vs. Directive
« Reply #9 on: April 28, 2013, 09:50:11 PM »


OT from the purpose of the thread, but your interpretation of Leadership would prevent an Othlor (elder Hathran) from having a younger Hathran as her cohort, which is pretty much explicitly the purpose of Hathran requiring the Leadership feat.
I'm gonna have to take issue with this assertion .....
1) Leadership is not required for Hathran .... though, they do get a special cohort for free.
2) This is a special cohort that is inherent to the class; which has very specific restrictions.  Furthermore, said cohort is completely independent of any they may get from Leadership (which they don't have to take). 
Hathran is a specific *thing*, and thus operates on it's own relative rules; which would make this a case of "specific trumps general".  At most, this is just a specific exception to base expectations.
3.0 Hathran does not require Leadership, and grants a cohort-like companion for free.  3.5 Hathran has Leadership as a prerequisite, and specifically gets a bonus to her leadership score for the purposes of her Cohort if the cohort is a Rashemi female with the Etheran feat, or is a Rashemi male barbarian.

Quote from: PGtF, p. 59-60
REQUIREMENTS
To qualify to become a hathran, a character must fulfill all the following criteria.
...
Feats: Ethran, Leadership.

...
 
Leadership Bonus (Ex): Beginning at 1st level, the hathran gains a +2 bonus to her Leadership score for the purpose of recruiting a cohort, with the following restriction: The cohort must be Rashemi and must either be a female with the Ethran feat or a male with at least one level in barbarian.
« Last Edit: April 28, 2013, 09:55:14 PM by ksbsnowowl »

Offline wotmaniac

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Re: Interpreting Rules -- Procedure vs. Directive
« Reply #10 on: April 28, 2013, 10:21:22 PM »
huh -- I just knew about the one in FRCS; though, to be fair, I'm not really all that versed in all things FR (I own the books only as a matter of completeness).

So, the intent is to give the Hathran either a body guard or an apprentice (and I suspect that the new prereq was put in to avoid cohort overload) .....  I still stand by # 2.

but whatever -- I'm not really all that invested in it.  Like I said, I didn't really want to get bogged down in the weeds of any given specific example -- I just spat out an example that happened to pop off the top of my head so as to clarify the actual point I was trying to get across.

Offline Unbeliever

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Re: Interpreting Rules -- Procedure vs. Directive
« Reply #11 on: April 28, 2013, 11:15:39 PM »
@TGD Tirade

Let's get the ad hominem out of the way first.  I happen to have a BA.  As do many of the successful people I know.  They are sad people with careers like doctor, lawyer, professor, and investment banker. 

I'll agree that people often expect too much from game designers.  Although actual laws and regulations aren't much better, but whatever.  However, the idea that I somehow can peek inside the minds of game designers is absurd.  Let's assume for a minute that I wanted to try and get a good image of a D&D authors' heads by looking through their blogs or what have you.  Even then, we have books that are written by committee, and more obviously the whole game is written by committee.  So, I'm supposed to interpret Complete Champion one way, but the Expanded Psionics Handbook another b/c they have different authors?  This way lies madness.  Then again, Talmudic parsing of D&D rules also = madness. 

More importantly than all that, though.  There is a big problem if there are really defined "you're doing it wrong!"(tm) ideas built into an RPG system.  Especially, if they're unstated.  If you're supposed to intuit that all parties are supposed to be X,Y, and Z or that all Wizards are supposed to be blasters (nevermind the archetypal D&D specialists who eschew blasting, like summoners, illusionists, and necromancers, which have been part of the game for decades at this point) then things are way off the rails. 

And, really, the appeal of a system like D&D, with its clunky class system and oodles of fiddly bits, is to see what you can make out of it. 

All that being said, you do want to use the right system for the game you want to play.  I think that's only fair.  Or, at the very least, recognize that you're using the wrong one and know that you'll have to deal with whatever issues that engenders.  I think a lot of people's disappointments/issues may be based on what they think the system is holding itself out to be doing. 
« Last Edit: April 28, 2013, 11:39:47 PM by Unbeliever »

Offline wotmaniac

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Re: Interpreting Rules -- Procedure vs. Directive
« Reply #12 on: April 29, 2013, 12:15:11 AM »
There is so much that is annoying and wrongheaded about that it's hard to know where to start.  Let's get the ad hominem out of the way first.  I happen to have a BA.  As do most of the successful people I know.  They are sad people with careers like doctor, lawyer, professor, and investment banker. 
My intent was not to assert offense to the reader (though in retrospect, I could have definitely expressed my thoughts better).  Though, in my defense, the general thrust of that small little bit (at least as it was intended) was based on empirical data.  And I should have explicated a bit better (because, let's face it, an art history degree is objectively not as marketable/profitable as a science/business degree).
Also note that all of your examples are all graduate degrees.  2 of them are straight-up doctorates (1 law and 1 science), one of them is math-centric (aka, not arts), and the other is (generically speaking) not restricted to 1 specific area of study.

But let's not get bogged down with non-sequitors.  (besides, unless you happen to be an english lit or art history major, then the shoe does not fit.  if so, then just know that I make no assertions about your character)

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I'll agree that people often expect too much from game designers.  Although actual laws and regulations aren't much better, but whatever. 
I see what you're getting at; but these aren't even in the same ballpark, as far as the total scope of application and degree of scrutiny that each must withstand .
I'm just sayin'.

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So, I'm supposed to interpret Complete Champion one way, but the Expanded Psionics Handbook another b/c they have different authors? 
I think you're being too specific.  What I meant was, given the total amount of information we have about the authors, at large, and their overall design process, we do have a general idea of where the group of them, as a whole are coming from. 
But since you mention the idea of parsing individual authors .... I remember the ni-universal "la-la-la, I'm not listening, la-la-la" that happened when Ed Bonny came out and attempted to set the record straight about Greenbond Summoning having a critical typo that happened to have never been corrected.  That wasn't a matter of people not reading far enough between the lines -- that was blatant childish reaction to something people just didn't want to here; and they hid behind the guise of "not in official errata" as justification.  It really was quite sad.

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There is a big problem if there are really defined "you're doing it wrong!"(tm) ideas built into an RPG system.  Especially, if they're unstated.
I really only see it as a problem if a) it is unstated , and b) if the game in question is being explicitly self-contradicting.

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And, really, the appeal of a system like D&D, with its clunky class system and oodles of fiddly bits, is to see what you can make out of it. 
I think that D&D's biggest problem is that they've set themselves up against the impossible standard of "all things to all people", and the fact that not only do they refuse to admit certain realities, they actually try to claim that such realities don't exist.

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All that being said, you do want to use the right system for the game you want to play.  I think that's only fair.  Or, at the very least, recognize that you're using the wrong one and know that you'll have to deal with whatever issues that engenders. 
And I see a lot of critique that ignores just that very thing.  Which is one of the factors that pushed me to starting this thread.
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I think a lot of people's disappointments/issues may be based on what they think the system is holding itself out to be doing.
That's fair.  See above about D&D's biggest problems.

Offline Unbeliever

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Re: Interpreting Rules -- Procedure vs. Directive
« Reply #13 on: April 29, 2013, 07:22:18 PM »
All things to all people is definitely a problem.  And, the more D&D tries to go that route rather than have what is a recognizable brand I think it twists itself up into frustrating knots.

I'm trying to think how to parse this.  Take the Greenbound Summoning example.  I think willful blindness as to even the possibility of poor editing/typos/just plain mistakes is pretty silly.  And, I don't think that's contentious.  But, I think there's probably a more useful principle that can be used.  Greenbound Summoning, as written, is pretty broken.  Anyone who's seen it in action can readily appreciate that.  Even on a generous reading of what feats can do, it seems far too powerful. 

I guess what I'm thinking is this:  I shouldn't be treating game designers as Word of God (tm) for all sorts of good reasons.  Why then should I be treating them as WoG when they want to put out sub silencio errata? 

More generally, what do you think the general idea of writers in D&D as a whole are coming from?  Is this a version of the stuff I alluded to in my above post re:  blasting wizards and the like?

If that's true, and I am a little skeptical about it just b/c we're going on what they've said (see WoG above) rather than what they've done (how many battlefield control spells are there again?  How many other wizard archetypes are supported with oodles of prestige classes and feats?).  Well, then I guess the question is how much of an influence does or should that have on the game.  It strikes me as a little strange to think 3E D&D, with its flexible class system, myriad of base classes and PrCs, and so on isn't at least intended as a game where you muck around with the bits the game gives you and build your knight or your sorcerer, etc. 

But, this may come back to the same general point:  does it matter what the creators think about the game?  Especially since we're accepting as a premise that they are not the geniuses. 

Offline wotmaniac

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Re: Interpreting Rules -- Procedure vs. Directive
« Reply #14 on: April 30, 2013, 01:35:37 AM »
I'm trying to think how to parse this.  Take the Greenbound Summoning example.  I think willful blindness as to even the possibility of poor editing/typos/just plain mistakes is pretty silly.  And, I don't think that's contentious.  But, I think there's probably a more useful principle that can be used.  Greenbound Summoning, as written, is pretty broken.  Anyone who's seen it in action can readily appreciate that.  Even on a generous reading of what feats can do, it seems far too powerful. 
Having just recently played a druid with this feat (even running it is as a MM with +2 spell LA), I can indeed attest to the fact of how powerful it is.  While I did also take Easy Metamagic with it, I also was multi-classed (in to Fochlucan Lyrist, no less) ..... still quite powerful, and well worth setting 2 feats on fire (though, to be honest, probably not worth taking it just by itself with that +2).
And yet I saw literally page after page, on sites all over the place, where most everyone was explicitly hiding behind "official" for no other reason than to not have to take that kind of nerf -- explicitly.
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I guess what I'm thinking is this:  I shouldn't be treating game designers as Word of God (tm) for all sorts of good reasons.  Why then should I be treating them as WoG when they want to put out sub silencio errata? 
Not WoG, per se; but if someone is making a good-faith effort to use RAI, then author insight is very helpful.  If someone happens to have no regard for RAI, then .... well, I don't know what the hell they're doing.
(don't get me wrong -- I'm not saying "badwrongfun"; I'm just saying that I literally can't fully wrap my head around that kind of mindset, outside of some kind of gonzo something-or-other)
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More generally, what do you think the general idea of writers in D&D as a whole are coming from?  Is this a version of the stuff I alluded to in my above post re:  blasting wizards and the like?
What I'm talking about is a culture (especially with the Core designers) wherein the very idea of CharOp was anathema. Many of the 3rd edition designers were also apart of TSR; and in the DMGs of both editions, much of what is associated with CharOp was singled-out and derided.  In their minds (and in the minds of many others), "options" are cool (everybody likes options, right?), but they don't even think about (and oftentimes don't even understand) the idea of abusing those options like a whore (not that there is necessarily anything wrong with whores ...  :p ).  Which is what the stereotypical CharOp culture is all about.
And now, CharOp culture is so widespread (with huge help of these here interwebs), that it has bled over in to "normal" play.  It wasn't until the advent of 4e that CharOp was even any kind of proactive consideration when hammering out basic design pillars (there was some of this towards the end of 3rd; but it was very reactive, and by then it was not much more than rearranging deck chairs).
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But, this may come back to the same general point:  does it matter what the creators think about the game?  Especially since we're accepting as a premise that they are not the geniuses.
It's about understanding and respecting the vision behind what we've been given. 
Look ..... I'm the kind of guy who prefers to use his tools in a manner consistent with their intent.  If I need a wrench, I get a wrench.  If I then need a hammer, I go get a hammer; because I know that if I try to use the wrench instead, I run the risk of breaking it, and now what have I got?  Answer: a broken mess.

That's all I'm saying.


Offline Unbeliever

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Re: Interpreting Rules -- Procedure vs. Directive
« Reply #15 on: April 30, 2013, 10:50:19 PM »
I like your wrench example, so I'm going to appropriate it.  Suppose Bob invents a wrench.  But, when he presents it to you, he tells you it's really good at knocking nails into wood.  And, it can certainly do that:  it's sturdy, it's got heft, a handgrip, etc.  But, you and most other people who spend some time with it realize that it's not really the best nail driver around, and that it's got these other great torque functions. 

That is, debatably, what the idea of a D&D designed by people hostile to at least many flavors of charopp looks like.  D&D, since 2E when I really got into it, has been a game with tons of fiddly bits.  A dizzying array of spells and magic items with their own rules accompanying them, dozens if not hundreds of classes, kits, prestige classes, etc.  It's hard to think of it as a game that isn't built around the idea of "here's a bunch of weird, sometimes clunky stuff, put it together how you see fit and see what happens." 

If you weren't interested in at least some form of charopp -- by which I mean finding interesting, often counterintuitive ways of fiddling with the mechanics to realize various concepts, archetypes, etc. -- then you should find another game.  You should find a game that is more straightforward, for lack of a better term.  Something that is either simpler and more direct (viz. the rise of OD&D) in its mechanics, or something that is less fiddly (e.g., M&M, which has a very different approach to stuff like charopp). 

If you're interested in playing 3E D&D, then you're at least in part interested with putting together stacks of various abilities in various combinations.  That's the way the leveling works, it's the way spell lists works, it's the way magic items work, it's the way feats work, etc. 

Hence, the Bob and his wrench analogy.  Taking Wotmaniac's description of the designers as true (I have no idea one way or the other), then they clearly have misunderstood things on a fundamental level.  And, it's not like charopp was anything new, people had been doing it with vigor for at least a decade before 3E hit the shelves.  Why should they be treated as authoritative or even helpful if they have clearly made such mistakes?  And, there are so many problems with that as an approach -- namely the fact that many people were involved in the process.  Legislative intent is the act of looking for a friendly face in the crowd, as one jurist said -- it's a generally disfavored practice. 

More generally, no, I don't think there's much merit in "author's intent."  Barring cases that amount to typos, which are hopefully rare (I can only think of 2), I don't see why the author's voice, all things being equal, is any more authoritative than any thoughtful reader or critic.  Pathfinder makes an eloquent argument against trusting the game designers.  And, that's especially true when at least a significant portion of them have not demonstrated themselves to be useful resources.  I'm not sure what that says for RAW v. RAI -- I don't find either one of those a useful concept as I've said before. 

Offline Jackinthegreen

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Re: Interpreting Rules -- Procedure vs. Directive
« Reply #16 on: April 30, 2013, 11:18:56 PM »
Considering how the designers apparently built the game with the idea of blasty wizard, healbot cleric, skilled rogue, and tanky fighter as the base group, I'd say they probably lost sight of the sheer size and complexity of the game.  A possible analogy to US government might be made where the politicians are compared to the designers and the general populace as the players.  One would hope the guys actually making the rules have run statistics and put careful thought into what they make, but often we find that they have seemingly lost sight of what is going on for various reasons.

That's not to say that knowing what their intent was is meaningless, but since the intent and the actual results often do not line up it's necessary to analyze both the intent and results to see if either is worth saving or tweaking.

Offline NiteCyper

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Re: Interpreting Rules -- Procedure vs. Directive
« Reply #17 on: May 12, 2013, 10:49:51 PM »
Sounds like you're talking about Death of the Author.
What? NiteCyper's post is evolving!

Offline wotmaniac

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Re: Interpreting Rules -- Procedure vs. Directive
« Reply #18 on: May 12, 2013, 11:45:29 PM »
Sounds like you're talking about Death of the Author.
That's just an essay on postmodernism.  In regards to literary analysis, I'm generally not a fan at all of the idea.

But, thanks to Unbeliever and Jackinthegreen, I'm starting to come around on the issue (in regards to RPGs).  Once you release something in to the wilds, you gotta let it be what it's gonna be.  If someone is really all that concerned with the "right" way to use their game, they should probably do their due diligence to clarify their vision, instead of making a bunch of biased assumptions.
 :shrug