Psionic Tricks questions: E6 Lvl 5 Gestalt Shaper optimisation + other

[brainpiercing]

The top part was adressing my first question in the thread, the new questions are further down.

After having deserted these boards for a while now, my obligations as a GM (and an opportune sick-leave) made me return: I'm trying to create a lvl 5 psion NPC with some staying power, hence, a recharge mechanic. Now this is E6, which makes things tricky. Luckily, Gestalt is there to save the day. He should be a shaper on one side and something on the other - for bonus feats I'm favouring two levels of Psychic Warrior and then I'm not sure. Incarnate, whatever. I only gave one bonus feat to everyone and no flaws! Race would be Elan.

As far as Psionic tricks go, there are some questions I have. First of all, those that interest me most don't seem to actually work - or do they?

The MOI recharge method

This trick revolves around reducing the cost of casting linked Bestow power by 3 points, hence granting a net gain of one. It uses Metapower and Midnight Augmentation. Except, and anyone with the patience to read the rules will find this immediately, it's Midnight  Augmentation, not metapsionics.

Here's what's in the handbook:

(click to show/hide)

The Recharge Trick uses Midnight Augmentation, Linked Power and Metapower to manifest Bestow Power (linked to  with a lower power point cost than power points bestowed by Bestow Power.  This allows your psychic to do his thing, all day long.
Feats: Midnight Augmentation, Linked Power, Metapower, Psicrystal Containment
Powers: Bestow Power, a first level power (Here I use Synchronicity)
Method:
    1. Focus yourself and your Psicrystal
    2. You choose Synchronicity to be effected by Midnight Augmentation, investing one essentia
    3. Expend your Psychic Focus to manifest a Synchronicity (which you have chosen to permanently join Linked Power to by Metapower)
    4. Expend your Psicrystal's Psychic Focus to manifest Synchronicity, linked to Bestow Power (Costs reduced by Midnight Augmentation for -1, and Metapower for -2, reducing the cost of the Synchronicity/Bestow Power combo to 1 PP)
    5. Refocus yourself and your Psicrystal (Doable in one round, if you choose Synchronicity as your 1st level power)
    6. Repeat 3-6

Minimum Level: 3 (Higher without Flaws + Human)

Even with Midnight Augment working on metapsionics cost this trick only works once every other round, because you absolutely need TWO Foci: To trigger Midnight, and to apply Linked Power.  While you still have one full-round action after the first cycle, you can't refocus yourself and the crystal. Only with Psionic meditation can you use it every round.

Without Midnight Augment, there is now a 0 point net gain in PPs. We are now stuck NEEDING earth power, which costs two more feats, or a questionable magic item. In this case, it's not even available in E6. Also, the NPC is only level 5, so no infinite feats.

I'm currently thinking that this method doesn't work, so only Wilder is left for affordable recharge (feat-cost wise).  Or have I missed anything?

The MOI infinicasting (or recharge) method

This method relies on two thing: Azure Talent and Psicarnum infusion.

(click to show/hide)

What you need: Azure Talent, Psycarnum Infusion, CON 13, a power point reserve.

Recommended: Psionic Mediation

How it works:

Azure talent grants you power points = to 2x the number of essentia invested in  the feat, subject to your max essentia cap.

Psycarnum infusion grants virtual max essentia capacity in one of your soul-melds, incarnum feats, class features, or other incarnum receptacles, until the start of your next turn, or effectively one round, in exchange for expending focus.

Furthermore, you cannot gain focus unless your reserve is above 0pp, thus a cognizance crystal will not work.

Example: let's pretend the max essentia capicity for this example is 3, and our power points are 1.
Step one: expend focus, activating psy-inf, targeting, azu-tal.
Step two: gain 6pp until next turn.
Step three: on next turn pp return to 0, as the azu-tal deactivates. you must regain focus to repeat.

Now even though I used to argue that this method actually works, well, it doesn't, at least not the way I used to say it does.

HOWEVER, I believe this has also not entirely been discussed. The key question here is what happens with BONUS power points, or rather, what happens when you lose them. I have been trying to look around at what happens to them when you incur ability damage, and I haven't managed to find anything conclusive. I have tried to find the same for spell slots, but apparently my search-fu also deserted me, there. I believe what happens with spell slots, for instance for prepared casters, is that you lose the bonus slots, which is why you should mark which slots were bonus. However, your base spell slots are not affected. This is actually critical: If you can't lose a base slot when you lose bonus slots, then the game would only check at every moment in time: How many bonus slots do I get? How many spell slots are there, currently? It would not make me lose regular spell slots after I have used up a number equal to my bonus slots.

So there is the kicker:

Azure Talent grants bonus PPs. Now even though unlike temporary points these are not used first by default, in analogy with the spell slot handling the game would nevertheless check only how many points you have when you lose them. So, let's say you activate Psicarnum Infusion, and gain 6 PPs as bonus PPs. Then you manifest for 6PPs. At the beginning of the next round, the game checks how many bonus points you get - which at that point is only ability bonus and no others. Then it would check how many PPs you have - which is now however many you had before. And then nothing changes. Only if you had not used up the PPs from Psycarnum infusion then you would lose points.

So, my question here is: What am I missing? Is there a mention anywhere of what happens with bonus PPs (or bonus spells) and ability score loss?

If this does not work, then the only other option I can think of is using the "temporary" powerpoints to manifest linked (augmented) Bestow power, so that the loss of PPs is circumvented by adding some again next round. This would likely as not leave you with very few PPs to use once your regular supply ran out, but it's better than nothing, I guess. And you could refill all your Cog crystals for higher level powers.

[brainpiercing]

Anyone?

I'm really looking for pointers on where to find an exact ruling on what happens with bonus (spell slots/power points/etc) when the governing ability gets damaged/lowered and then restored. It's really not in the "Changing ability scores section" in the PHB.

Let's take a sorceror for instance:

With 18 Cha he gets one bonus 4th level slot at level 7. Now one day he  gets his Cha damaged to 16, and loses his bonus spell slot. So far so good. Now what happens when he gets the Cha restored during the same day? Does he regain the slot? I'm thinking yes, because you should get bonus slots for buffs, too, which don't specify that you DON'T get any bonus spell slots.

On another day he casts one 4th level spell, and then gets his Cha damaged.  Now what happens? Does he lose a spell slot on that level? Or does the game merely check whether he has too many slots for that day, and when it finds that he hasn't, nothing happens? In the latter case, what happens when he gets his Cha restored? Does the "game" track the number of spells he has cast? If not that would mean ability damage turns into a way to restore spell slots.

Or a wizard with a smart player who might have marked his regular spells prepared and his bonus spells prepared, when his Int gets damaged.  He loses access to the bonus spells prepared, so when he casts them before the Int damage, he should not lose them.


The reason I'm asking this is obvious: If you don't always lose something by default when the governing ability gets lowered, then Psycarnum infusion just got HUGE, because you can just completely refill yourself not just one PP at a time, but however many you get from PI. Is this something I have to decide as the GM or is there something in the books somewhere?

[SolEiji]

This isn't anything from a book (I'd have a look) but I can offer you my interpretation.  Ability damage would lower your maximum PP, which may remove your PP.  It works like this, say you have 80 PP.  You use 30, leaving you with 50/80 PP.  Then you take ability damage and your maximum PP drops to 60, or 50/60.  Later it is restored, and you get nothing back, 50/80.  It works like hp.

If you take ability damage, but your PP is 70/80, then it drops to 60/60.  When restored, you're left with 60/80, with some of it wasted when you took ability damage.  You won't get it back until you have it restored, ala resting or by some method of absorbing PP.

[brainpiercing]

That sort of also makes sense... not sure I like the implication for buff spells, though.

However, it sort of half backs me up, too.

Let's say I have 30 pps and azure talent is empty. I expend my focus and activate PI. Now azure talent is treated as if filled for one round. I gain 4 bonus pps, my max pps are set to 34. If I don't use any powers by the end of the round those bonus pps will vanish.  Now if I spend the 4 pps then what happens? My max pps are reset to 30. I should still have 30 pps. 

In this case the specifics of PI have to break the morning  clause in azure talent and also the resting condition, even though they don't spell this out.

Now if I have 20/30 pps and activate PI, I gain 4 pps and have 24/34. What happens at the end of the round?

Actually this interpretation is still fine until you try to activate PI again.  At that moment you either replay the last example, or you argue that the removal of the condition for the bonus pps acts like ability damage, and you simply gain nothing the second time around. There are arguments for either case due to the further intricacies of PI.

I'm beginning to question the value of logic on this one.  Probably it would be best to just houserule like I want it to be.

[Ananse]

I'm currently thinking that this method doesn't work, so only Wilder is left for affordable recharge (feat-cost wise).  Or have I missed anything?

Didn't you just say it does work one paragraph above that?

I can't parse your text, but if you think the problem is that one or both methods don't work in combat due to speed concerns, you've missed the point (that's the only logical thing I could glean from the first method). The goal with psionics is to have infinite out-of-combat juicing so that you can have all  your buffs always on and spend freely in fights. Linked Power shenanigans are pretty obvious; with enough essentia in Midnight Augmentation, you don't even need Metapower.

http://community.wizards.com/go/thread/view/75882/29402883/ and its site's patrons covers the second method.

[brainpiercing]

Didn't you just say it does work one paragraph above that?

I can't parse your text, but if you think the problem is that one or both methods don't work in combat due to speed concerns, you've missed the point (that's the only logical thing I could glean from the first method). The goal with psionics is to have infinite out-of-combat juicing so that you can have all  your buffs always on and spend freely in fights. Linked Power shenanigans are pretty obvious; with enough essentia in Midnight Augmentation, you don't even need Metapower.

http://community.wizards.com/go/thread/view/75882/29402883/ and its site's patrons covers the second method.

No, Midnight Augmentation actually doesn't work at all: Linked power makes the Bestow Power a METAPOWER cost not an AUGMENTATION cost. Unless you write up a homebrew Midnight Metapsionics (or maybe it was errata'd to work on Metapsionics?) you don't gain anything from Midnight Augmentation at all before you actually augment a power. Arguably even an augmented Bestow Power in the Linked power is still a metapower cost, and anyway you are quickly reaching your ML limit, because LInked Power doesn't lift that at all. So you see, you spend 1 additional PP for the base power, one wasted PP on Bestow Power, and for every augmentation, you spend that PP again.

Alright, maybe at level 7 or so it works (which is actually ok-ish, but I was looking for something pre-level 5):
You have ML 7, which is enough for a once augmented Bestow Power + a 1PP power (synchronicity), netting your 4PPs the next round for 7PPs cost.  You have 2 capacity in Midnight Augment, which is also the maximum you can put in there for a 2nd level power. Metapower reduces your cost by 2, MA by another, and that's it. Ok, this DOES work. You need two foci to do it, though, so Psycrystal Containment is a must. And then you are well off with Psionic Meditation, or else you will need one more round to refocus.

I am fully aware this does not work IN COMBAT. It's really not supposed to.


Edit: The link you provided discusses the second trick, and they assume that the PPs granted by the AT/PI combo are simply used first. This is VERY convenient to just assume. I would be very wary of conservative GMs in this case. But....

Alright, in the particular case, I am the GM, so I can just decide, which will probably be along the lines of ALL bonus stuff is always used first.

[brainpiercing]

Ok, now that my initial problems are out of the way, I would like some more advice. I would like to get this same Lvl 5 NPC from above a good optimized base.

House rules:
- Any PrC has it's requirements lowered so it's available by 2nd level, UNLESS PROBLEMATIC. Pet PrCs are often problematic like that, but many others are not. this means, yes, I can take Constructor by level 2.
- 1 bonus feat. No flaws. +2 Skillpoints/level for everyone.
- Everything and everyone gets their CON score as bonus HP at level 1 (adapted later as well), or 12 if they don't have a CON score. Maybe some undead get Cha, if they have a fitting ability (Unholy Toughness, etc.).
- Flexible retrain! (Meet requirements at the time of retraining!)
- All racial and alignment requirements waived unless they totally make no sense. (Like warforged components on a human.)


What I currently have down is this:

Elan Shaper1/Constructor4//Psychic Warrior 5.

Why the Psywar? Well... bonus feats. I can't figure out a way to get Psionic Meditation by level 5 any other way. I could swap out some Psywar for something else and retrain the Lvl3 feat, suggestions?

   Side   Side2   ability   Feat
1   Shaper1   psywar      boost construct(1), linked power(b),metapower(psion1), psicrystal affinity(psywar1)
2   Constructor   psywar      
3   Constructor   psywar      Overchannel, psicrystal containment(retrained Psywar2)
4   Constructor   psywar      
5   Constructor   psywar      Psionic Meditation (PW5)

Powers aren't definite. I want the guy to focus on astral constructs, so I obviously have a few down, there. His ML on the Psion side is only 4, HOWEVER, I thought he could simply research AC again on the Psywar side and manifest AC as a Psywar taking the benefits of the Constructor class, anyway, and making use of Overchannel. He would then also need a convenient 1PP power to link it to on the Psywar side, so he can also make use of Metapower.

Now I unfortunately didn't have space for the recharge mechanic, which, as I pointed out above, wouldn't work within the frame of levels available unless really pimping out the cost reductions on augments.

I would like some suggestions on the build and on items. This guy is basically 1000 years old and need not follow WBL. However, highest allowable CL on items is 6!

I am going to allow him one Quori Power Link shard (requirements waived). They are sort of cheesy, but who cares. That's why I'm only taking one.

With Overchannel, Metapower and the Link shard I am then at ML6 on the PW side, and can stuff 8PPs into a single linked power. Well this is sort of useless as I need either 7 or 9 for astral construct. I don't want to go overboard on the Link shard cheese, though. Any other suggestions?

With this I can get Lvl 4 constructs with 3 Menu B choices. Unfortunately the duration will still only be 6 rounds, as that goes off ML. He can't recharge and he'll be hurting himself all the time.

Will the incarnum route be better? Swapping Linked power stuff for AT and PI, and Overchannel for Midnight Augment? That only gives him 2PPs gain by level 5, and he can augment for two free points, which means with his ML of 5 for psywar he will get lvl 4 constructs for an actual cost of 3PP. Maybe Increased Essentia Cap at 3 is a better choice? 4 PPs gained, but only 6PPs to spend, effectively... This seems to lose out, but gets huge at level 6.

[awaken_D_M_golem]

Azure Talent + Psycarnum Infusion = oh that's what I forgot.


Yeah it's Bonus power points, and they are different
You could have a situation like this:

a) ... You have 2 regular power points.
b) ... You activate the combo, and now (also) have +2 bonus power points.
c) ... So you have 4 "pool" power points.
d) ... You use a 2 ppoint power.
e) ... So now you have 2 "pool" power points.
f) ... Its just about your next turn and step B expires.

g1) ... you have 2 regular power points
... has been the traditional answer and feels rather hand wavy !!
or
g2) ... you used 2 power points which might have been
g2A ... 0 regular power points + 2 bonus power points
g2B ... 1 regular power point + 1 bonus power point
g2C ... 2 regular power points + 0 bonus power points
and for lack of a better term, this is DM Fiat ;  or it could just be random.

g2D ... so you have left 0, 1, or 2 regular power points
And in this case 0 power points is a major problem for the loop.
As in the loop stops.

 

[brainpiercing]

These were exactly my concerns before. However, it seems to be a consensus from the high-end optimisers that this just works - you can simply use your bonus power points first, and you then don't lose anything else when they go away.

It feels a little cheap to do this, and I'm sure it would hardly ever fly in a game where I'm not the GM, however, in this case... and anyway NPCs are just interim characters anyway, to keep my char-op-addiction satisfied, until the next NPC comes along .