Fun Finds v4.0

[awaken_D_M_golem]

Baernoloth's revenge then, or secret plot as usual ?

[Keldar]

Tauric Cave Anky can get nearly all the natural armor needed

Hmm.  Tauric plus cave Anky means 8HD, +2 LA, but that LA could be bought off.  Possible Mutations could make things interesting too (with no increase in HD or LA).  3 Improved Natural Armor feats are doable, and the Iron Will for Hidecarved can be bought.

I was under the impression that Dragonborn wiped out your natural armor though.  It takes away all of your pre-existing racial characteristics, including bonus feats and skill points, so I'd presume natural armor (and natural weapons) go as well.

Wouldn't matter if it didn't, the Cave Ankyl can't meet the Will prerequisite.  Nothing can in 8 levels without massive multiclassing.

[zook1shoe]

It seems that you can take Ability Focus for many class abilities

Spells, powers, maneuvers, etc.

[altpersona]

Aid Another is the first listing under the Special Attacks header on D20srd.org

im not 100% sure that the +2 "DC" from Ability Focus is applicable, but it would be nice to double the default value. all of a sudden the wizard stuck in melee w/out spells is giving a +4 to hit w/out magic. if its applicable.

Two Weapon Fighting is also under that section. if it works like that.

[snakeman830]

It seems that you can take Ability Focus for many class abilities

Spells, powers, maneuvers, etc.

Yes, but I believe it is only for a single spell, power, or maneuver.  For example, you could not take "Ability Focus (Spells)," but you could take "Ability Focus (Finger of Death)."  The reason why is because "spells" refers to the collection of abilities, not the abilities themselves.

[zook1shoe]

But under several monsters before the new stat block, 'spellcasting' is the SA. It was not divided up by each spell

[SorO_Lost]

But under several monsters before the new stat block, 'spellcasting' is the SA. It was not divided up by each spell

Umm. No.

A. Arcane & Divine Talent don't have a Save DC, you cannot take Ability Focus for them.
B. Instead of quoting GitP hearsay trash that's proven to be as accurate as zook1shoe, you could have taken the minute to read MMV's section on reading the entries which separates Spellcasting from Special Attacks & Qualities. Which is further demonstrated by several creature entries that obtained real Class levels, such as the Hobgoblin Duskblade a whole two pages before a Hobgoblin with Arcane Talent. Or even the Spells section in the MMv's Glossary. You know, just about anywhere in that book rather than posted hearsay shit.
C. Lastly, MMV & FCII's new Talent thing is creature specific rules. They don't appear in the MMV's glossary, headers, or descriptors. They do not note they are an update or change things retro activity. So while Polymorph/Shapechange can, and only can, be used to turn into those specific creatures to obtain the key Talent ability. There is no foundation to claim Polymorph can let you obtain a Solar's Spellcasting or anything of the like without houserules. And claiming Spellcasting in Ex is a fundamental failure on your part worthy of total ostracization as you have fully and whole heatedly proven your inability & lazyness to preform proper research into a topic while simultaneously showcasing your creative imagination to fabricate your desired results without any regard to what is real or not.

[linklord231]

SorO, what the heck are you talking about.  Zook's post had nothing to do with Shapechange, nothing to do with Arcane or Divine Talent, nothing to do with whether Spells are Ex, and nothing to do with MMV.  He even specified "before the new stat block". 

In MM1, monsters with spellcasting have "Spells" listed under "Special Attacks".  His argument is that since Spells are apparently all a single Special Attack (according to the old stat blocks), Ability Focus should apply to all of them. 

[JaronK]

SorO is trying to bring up a completely different argument, and has such a knee jerk "IT MUST BE WRONG" response to it that he's actually not even aware of what's being said right now and isn't paying attention to RAW here at all.  This is why I stopped debating that particular point with him.

The old stat blocks did indeed specify that "spells" in general, like all class abilities, are a singular Special Attack.  The new stat blocks simply don't specify anything about them (except for Arcane Talent and that Lilitu ability, which are listed as IIRC Ex Special Qualities and which function just like class ability based spellcasting).  So yes, technically you could take Ability Focus for "Spells" if you wanted.  I imagine it would only apply to the spells of one specific class at a time if for some reason you had two (Mystic Theurges and the like).

But no, there's no doubt that under the old stat blocks spells are special attacks.  It says so very clearly hundreds of times.

JaronK

[zook1shoe]

thank you, linklord 231 and JaronK!

Races of the Wild (pg 112) has a stat block with both arcane and divine spells as a single ability.

[JaronK]

Gah, so I guess even the theurges can have fun with that one.

JaronK

[TuggyNE]

And claiming Spellcasting in Ex is a fundamental failure on your part worthy of total ostracization as you have fully and whole heatedly proven your inability & lazyness to preform proper research into a topic while simultaneously showcasing your creative imagination to fabricate your desired results without any regard to what is real or not.

Anyone advocating total ostracization of someone just because they're wrong about something should themselves be totally ostracized.

... wait, did I just totally ostracize myself? Man, this "ethics" stuff is hard.

[zook1shoe]

Don't bother, he didn't understand what I was trying to say.

"Spellcasting qualifies for Ability Focus feat."

[jojolagger]

ELH.
an adult force dragon is ECL 45. It has 45 HD. Sure, it's only one data point, but as the only data point, it means force dragons are LA +0.
Same for prismatic dragons.

The interesting thing is that this means Force dragons are playable pre-epic. Barely.

[zook1shoe]

No, it means only that age category is +0, since there is no LA indicated for the other ages.

but that table has some of the most outlandish LAs in the game.

Atropal has a -30 LA, which means your 36 level game has a 66 HD character 

[ksbsnowowl]

Abjurant Champion is awesome when tacked onto True Dragons:

Martial Arcanist (Ex): At 5th level, you master the art of combining your militant and mystical training. From this point on, your caster level in a chosen arcane spellcasting class is equal to your base attack bonus (unless it would otherwise be higher). For example, a 7th-level fighter/1st-level wizard/5th-level abjurant champion has a base attack bonus of +12 (and thus a caster level of 12th). You can apply this benefit to only one arcane class to which you have added spellcasting levels by your advancement as an abjurant champion.

Most dragons have a BAB well above their CR.  By the Very Old age category all the Core Chromatics have a BAB 10 or more above their CR.  Up the CR by 5 for the levels of Abjurant Champion, and make it a lot tougher for the PC's to dispel his buffs.  An adult red dragon with 5 levels of Abjurant Champion would be a CR 20, cast as a 12th level sorcerer, but also have a CL of 27.

[Sinfire Titan]

ELH.
an adult force dragon is ECL 45. It has 45 HD. Sure, it's only one data point, but as the only data point, it means force dragons are LA +0.
Same for prismatic dragons.

The interesting thing is that this means Force dragons are playable pre-epic. Barely.

If you feel like being a complete dick to a DM, you can use the ECL rules from PGtF to play that dragon at 1st level (you take a -44 penalty to EVERYTHING involving your d20, but that shouldn't matter too much).

[SorO_Lost]

Anyone advocating total ostracization of someone just because they're wrong about something should themselves be totally ostracized.

Maybe. But example text in a secondary (or tertiary) source further trumped by the RC hardly matters. Secondly, "Spells", ie spellcasting, does not have a Save DC. An individual Spell might, but (obviously) the ability to cast a Spell doesn't.

Its like if I were to state a 1st level Fighter is the strongest Character you could make. Then rationaled the reason why is because his BAB granted him 12 attacks which allows him to take Epic Strength. The nonsense of piled up lies is hard to wrap you're head around, but you know for a fact it's wrong multiple times over. I'd miss my self proclaimed side job if I missed the chance to nip something like that in the bud when it pops up.

If you feel like being a complete dick to a DM, you can use the ECL rules from PGtF to play that dragon at 1st level (you take a -44 penalty to EVERYTHING involving your d20, but that shouldn't matter too much).

Doesn't the SS do the same with all creatures?

[JaronK]

Anyone advocating total ostracization of someone just because they're wrong about something should themselves be totally ostracized.

Maybe. But example text in a secondary (or tertiary) source further trumped by the RC hardly matters. Secondly, "Spells", ie spellcasting, does not have a Save DC. An individual Spell might, but (obviously) the ability to cast a Spell doesn't.

The primary source (Monster Manual 1) lists Spells as a Special Attack in the definition of Special Attacks.  Every single creature with the old stat blocks (including all the ones in the primary source on Special Attacks) that has the Spells ability has them listed as a Special Attack.  They're Special Attacks.  The prerequisite for Ability Focus is "Special Attack."  Get over it.

I know, I know, you don't want it to be true.  Believe me, we all get it.

JaronK

[linklord231]

To be fair, a stat block or a table (let alone a stat block in a table, like some creatures have) is a secondary/tertiary source, even though it appears in a "primary sourcebook". 

However, Spells are still listed under Special Attacks (renamed to just "SA") in the new statblocks.  And they have their own Glossary entry in both old and new MMs.  So there's really no argument against being able to take Ability Focus: Spells. 

If you do this, expect flying books.