Astral Plane & Fast Healing

[Necrosnoop110]

Does Fast Healing work on the Astral Plane?

Astral Plane
"Timeless. Age, hunger, thirst, poison, and natural healing don’t function in the Astral Plane"

Fast Healing
"A creature with fast healing has the extraordinary ability [not spell-like or supernatural]* to regain hit points at an exceptional rate. Except for what is noted here, fast healing is like natural healing."

Thoughts?

Thanks,
Necro

* [My addition]

[Kethrian]

Being like natural healing is not the same thing as natural healing.  Fast healing would not be suppressed, because even though it acts similarly to natural healing in many ways, it is still a separate effect.

[linklord231]

I disagree.  "Except as noted here" means that if it isn't called out as being different, then it defaults to behaving in the same way as natural healing.  Since natural healing doesn't function, neither does Fast Healing.

[Kethrian]

I disagree.  "Except as noted here" means that if it isn't called out as being different, then it defaults to behaving in the same way as natural healing.  Since natural healing doesn't function, neither does Fast Healing.

So you don't believe that Fast Healing is a separate and distinct ability from natural healing?  You would also say that a creature under the effects of Greater Spell Immunity, with one chosen spell to be Shout, to also be immune to Greater Shout?  Because Greater Shout says it is like Shout except for what is noted in its description, just as Fast Healing does with regards to natural healing.

[Roxoff]

Fast Healing is an Extraordinary Ability.  It's not a 'spell like effect', as per that description.  I read it as an improved version of the natural ability.  If natural healing doesn't take place then Fast Healing doesn't either.

As stated above, the 'Except for what is noted here, fast healing is like natural healing' is pretty clear.  That section makes no note of the Astral Plane.

[Kethrian]

Then, by your logic, Fast Healing must only function when someone takes at least a full night's rest, as that is when natural healing says it restores HP, and the Fast Healing entry does not expressly declare otherwise, merely that it heals faster.  Therefore, it must only heal faster when the character rests for at least 8 hours.

[phaedrusxy]

Then, by your logic, Fast Healing must only function when someone takes at least a full night's rest, as that is when natural healing says it restores HP, and the Fast Healing entry does not expressly declare otherwise, merely that it heals faster.  Therefore, it must only heal faster when the character rests for at least 8 hours.

If you read the full description, it contradicts this. Therefore, the specific writeup of Fast Healing trumps the limitation of having to rest for 8 hours for "natural healing".

Otherwise, yes, Fast Healing suffers all the limitations that natural healing does except where they are specifically called out as different in the Fast Healing writeup.

Another odd thing this does is cause Fast Healing to not function when a creature is at less than 0 hit points.

[Kethrian]

Where exactly does it contradict it?  It merely says

A creature with the fast healing special quality at an exceptionally fast rate, usually 1 or more hit points per round

And natural healing explicitly states

With a full night's rest (8 hours of sleep or more), you recover 1 hit point per character level ... Any significant interruption (such as combat or the like) during your rest prevents you from healing that night.

Therefore, if fast healing is merely an improvement upon natural healing as you claim, then it can only occur when you take a full night's rest, and only readjusts the calculation for how many HP you recover once the period of rest is complete.  You must still rest the full 8 hours to gain any benefit at all, and definitely cannot heal during combat or exertion of any sort with fast healing.

[Necrosnoop110]

Where exactly does it contradict it?  It merely says

A creature with the fast healing special quality at an exceptionally fast rate, usually 1 or more hit points per round

And natural healing explicitly states

With a full night's rest (8 hours of sleep or more), you recover 1 hit point per character level ... Any significant interruption (such as combat or the like) during your rest prevents you from healing that night.

Therefore, if fast healing is merely an improvement upon natural healing as you claim, then it can only occur when you take a full night's rest, and only readjusts the calculation for how many HP you recover once the period of rest is complete.  You must still rest the full 8 hours to gain any benefit at all, and definitely cannot heal during combat or exertion of any sort with fast healing.

The contradiction is right there in the definitions.

"Regular" Natural Healing happens once every 8 hours (with rest or the equivalent). That is, the rate at which natural healing happens is once/8 hours.

Fast Healing happens once every round. That is, the rate at which fast healing happens is once/round.

[Kethrian]

But natural healing tallies the healing only at the end of the 8 hours' rest, regardless of how fast you would heal each individual HP ...

[Necrosnoop110]

But natural healing tallies the healing only at the end of the 8 hours' rest, regardless of how fast you would heal each individual HP ...

Correct. And fast healing only tallies the healing after a rounds worth of time. Hence, the contradiction. This is why the definition for fast healing mentions the change in the rate of healing at which "regular" natural healing occurs. 

[Nanshork]

But natural healing tallies the healing only at the end of the 8 hours' rest, regardless of how fast you would heal each individual HP ...

In D&D, specific trumps general.  The per round of fast healing trumps the general rule for natural healing.

[Kethrian]

Even still, fast healing cannot function during combat, because strenuous activities prevent natural healing.

[Demelain]

I disagree.  "Except as noted here" means that if it isn't called out as being different, then it defaults to behaving in the same way as natural healing.  Since natural healing doesn't function, neither does Fast Healing.

So you don't believe that Fast Healing is a separate and distinct ability from natural healing?

That kind of an argument is ridiculous. Don't put words in someone's mouth. Two things can be distinct while one still inherits the rules from another.
Example:
Rectangles are like squares, except as noted here: side which are not opposite eachother do not need to be equal in length.
Squares have four sides and four right angles. All sides are the same length. Opposite sides are parallel.

Rectangles are not squares, but they share many qualities with them.

From the SRD:

Fast Healing
A creature with fast healing has the extraordinary ability to regain hit points at an exceptional rate. Except for what is noted here, fast healing is like natural healing.
At the beginning of each of the creature’s turns, it heals a certain number of hit points (defined in its description).
Unlike regeneration, fast healing does not allow a creature to regrow or reattach lost body parts. Unless otherwise stated, it does not allow lost body parts to be reattached.
A creature that has taken both nonlethal and lethal damage heals the nonlethal damage first.
Fast healing does not restore hit points lost from starvation, thirst, or suffocation.
Fast healing does not increase the number of hit points regained when a creature polymorphs.

There's a full quote of the definition of fast-healing. You might have some ground to argue that it does not function during combat, but it very obviously does not require eight hours of rest.

[Kethrian]

Books trump SRD, and books do not have that statement.

[phaedrusxy]

Books trump SRD, and books do not have that statement.

The SRD typically includes errata, which trumps books.

[Gazzien]

Books trump SRD, and books do not have that statement.

The SRD typically includes errata, which trumps books.

Then find the errata that has that part? Positive claim; burden of truth. (That's the logical thing here, right?)

[Necrosnoop110]

<Opens Premium Dungeons & Dragons 3.5 Dungeon Master's Guide with Errata (ISBN 978-0786962457). Turns to page 293.>

"At the beginning of each of the creature's turns, it heals a certain number of hit points (defined in its description)."

[Kethrian]

Thank you for finding that, and proving my original point that fast healing will still work in the astral plane.

[Gazzien]

Thank you for finding that, and proving my original point that fast healing will still work in the astral plane.

I've gotta go with this... It's specific > general, right? If it heals at the beginning of each round, then it would work on timeless planes....