Stutter caster

[Anthrowhale]

I posted the Stutter Caster http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?p=15294019#post15294019 on gitp, but was told that folks here might appreciate it more.

The basic idea is to use Twin Spell, Dweomer Keeper, and metaspells to make any L4- spell (save yes, SR Yes, attack yes) spell hit. This has similar goals to the Mailman build, but is radically more comprehensive, offering many different tactics than direct damage as well as extreme flexibility in spell choice via Archivist casting.  The full details are at the post above.  I'm interested in any comments or improvements that you can come up with.

[Scottzar]

Yes, throwing every dirty trick with self-admittedly dubious legality you remember onto one caster lets you get around most issues.
So does Pun-Pun. At this level of effort (Arcane Thesis Wish, for gods sake), Pun-Pun is essentially a viable option.

To be fair I didn't think of Easy Metamagic as a Metamagic feat for AT, so recognition where it's due.

[Anthrowhale]

Yes, throwing every dirty trick with self-admittedly dubious legality you remember onto one caster lets you get around most issues.

Actually many dirty tricks missing.  There are no flaws, no feat reshuffling, no level buyoff, no setting specific rules/spells/items, no rebuilding to a non-sequentially viable state, no removal of prestige class prereqs after qualification, no early qualification for prestige classes, no mind swap, no racial casting levels or obscure races, etc....  Furthermore, the build is playable at all levels.  I believe the assumptions listed are complete and would all plausibly be the default interpretation where rules are ambiguous. 

Comparing to the Mailman build for example, this does not require the Faerun-specific Incantatrix, so it may be playable in more campaigns.

[Mister Freeze]

Your attempt to downplay the amount of cheese probably isn't going be taken seriously.  It doesn't matter that you didn't use any of things you mention.  Maybe that somehow makes it more elegant in your mind, which is fine, but it doesn't mean much at the end of the day. 

[ariasderros]

(A note: I am not being condescending; I merely don't know what you do or don't know, and am trying to help guide you around)

There is CO, and there is TO. Character Optimization. Theoretical Optimization.

CO is taking a concept, and then optimizing it for playable function. Casters normally can't maintain decent damage. Mailman applies CO to direct damage. Nuker applies CO to area damage. Gnowhere Gnome applies CO to enchantment & illusion.

CO characters can still be taken into 90% of game groups who know what they are doing even a little bit.

TO is making a character decimate any semblance of expected performance. Chuck'E'Cheese, Pun-Pun, Cheater of Mystra & Twice Betrayer of Shar, Hulking Hurler, Etc. This stuff shatters any campaign it touches that isn't specifically built for this kind of shenanigans‎.

Min/Max 3.x forum is for CO work, whether asking for help on how to make a character better, or for posting some neat build that makes your Ranger able to hold its own in a fullcaster party. TO in this sub-board might get toasted a bit. Not outright flamed, but there might be a bit of displeasure. See above comments.

Take your build, copy it, then post it in "You Break It, You Buy It" sub-board. That's where the TO community is, and that's where this stuff is expected.


Also, to clarify, the reason this is TO:

1) This wins Rocket Tag Hard. A "Recursive Twin", as you call it, can force through many, many Save-or-Lose spells. Meaning that if the target isn't immune to any and every status effect that can be produced by a level 4 or less spell, you win. Also, with this trick, you can already make sure you win initiative every time, and aren't ever caught flat-footed by combining already well-known tricks with some of the same things you use to always hit.

2) The use of "dirty tricks".
Firstly,

no removal of prestige class prereqs after qualification, no early qualification for prestige classes

You are using Anyspell as your Arcane Casting circumvention, which is early entry, because you are avoiding taking actual levels you otherwise are meant to. That is what early entry is.
You are using a spell, Substitute Domain, to qualify for your PrC. Even if you re-cast it constantly, you are still gaining your qualification from a spell, not a permanent effect. (A) This is early entry again, because without this, you would need to take another level in a different class (Cleric or Contemplative), and you are finding an end-around for that. (B) While you might not intend for your prereq to be removed, it very well can be removed by others through many different, easily accessible, means.

Secondly, this is on par with the Twice-Betrayer of Shar. The only difference being that TBoS emphasizes defense to the point of being immune to everything, whereas this emphasizes being able to hit any target with any effect, and nearly guarantee success. This comes primarily for the "Recursive Twin" trick that you keep using, which is, beyond a shadow of a doubt, a "Dirty Trick".

Comparing to the Mailman build for example, this does not require the Faerun-specific Incantatrix, so it may be playable in more campaigns.

Mailman can use stuff from Dragon or UA to help, but is not reliant on it. This build needs at least Dragon material to be okay'ed to be usable. I've seen Incantatrix approved way more often than Dragon material. Heck, I played along side an Incantatrix in a game where none of the Dragon material, nor the Paragon classes were allowed. YMMV, but to say that this is any more acceptable at a play table than the Mailman due to source material is a pretty big assumption.

[Quillwraith]

Well, recursive twinning is a fun idea, though I agree that it is a 'dirty trick' (There's a thread for those, and I think it would be well-received there).


Would this work without supernatural spell?  How well?

[Anthrowhale]

There is CO, and there is TO.

Thanks for this. 

I suspect that whether you consider this CO or TO depends a bit on level? 

At level 1-8, I believe this is merely a strong caster which should be in the realm of CO.

Levels 9 (AT[Arcane Fusion]), 10(Su Spell), 12 (Persist), 13(Arcane Spell Surge), 15(AT[GAF]), 17(Shapechange/Disjunction), 18 (AT[Wish]), 20(AT[Limited Wish]) each provide a significant quantum jump in power.  Crudely speaking, you can think of this as a factor of 2 increase in power each time and the end result is TO by your definition.  I'm curious where you place the line in between those points.  I understand that's fuzzy, but it would help me calibrate.

you can already make sure you win initiative every time

Are  you just thinking of foresight/celerity?  I'm not sure how you would use Twin for initiative.

That is what early entry is.

I think it's fair to say that there are some odd entries, but that it's not really early.  Dweomerkeeper's standard first entry level is 6, just as in this build.  The same is true of all other prestige classes.

While you might not intend for your prereq to be removed, it very well can be removed by others through many different, easily accessible, means.

As a DM, I'd houserule loss of class abilities in the case of prereq removal.  Note that at level 11+ class abilities are no longer dispellable.   So, there is a window of level 6-10 where the build does have a notable (and exploitable) weakness.

This build needs at least Dragon material to be okay'ed to be usable.

Losing the Dragon feats cuts the power down, but they are not essential to the approach.  A sorcerer or wizard can also access the full range of multipliers with delayed spell access.  Arcane Thesis on an Twin Sanctum Invisible Cooperative spell is +0.

YMMV

I agree, and I don't have enough experience at different tables to tell how it varies.   But generally depending on fewer things seems desirable.

Would this work without supernatural spell?  How well?

Without Supernatural Spell Wish is too expensive for routine use, Limited Wish is painful to use regularly, and SR:Yes spells can fail.  This drops the multiplier on the number of base spells the character would willingly drop in a round by a factor of 2 or 4 and can force salting your castings with Truecast/Assay Resistance.  It's still a powerful technique, but Charm Monster x6 is not quite as fearsome as Charm Monster x20.

[Captnq]

Have you read Anyspell?

Once you choose and prepare an arcane spell, you retain it in your mind. The prepared spell occupies your 3rd-level domain spell slot.

As far as I can tell, you are casting anyspell from your archivist, but Archivist has no domain slots, so I'm curious as to how the spell occupies your non-existent Domain slot?

A chart breaking down the order by which you buy the levels and what level spellcaster he is under which given base spellcaster list would be helpful in understanding.


Also, did you look at arcane fusion?

choose any 1st-level sorcerer spell you know and any 4th-level or lower sorcerer spell you know.

As far as I can tell, you don't know any sorcerer spells. You know archivist spells. You have an archivist spell list and can add spells to it, but they are still archivist spells. If I gave your spellbook to a wizard, he couldn't use it. Note, some spells are Wizard/Sorcerer, but there are no Wizard/Cleric spell list. Only Wizard and Sorcerer share a spell list.

A spell list is a different beast all together.

I'm sorry, While I'm a big fan of being able to say, "BY RAW THIS WORKS SO SUCK IT, CUPCAKE." I can't say that by RAW this works. I can't even say by RAI. And trust me, I'm the biggest asshole here when it comes to RAW. If I'm saying it's not allowed, it's not allowed.

[Anthrowhale]

Have you read

These are both covered in the assumptions section, but I'll reiterate.

For Anyspell, do you believe that a Druid/Contemplative taking the Spell domain would be able to prepare an arcane spell in the (single) 3rd level slot where they can prepare a domain spell?  I'd say "yes" and I expect that most would agree.

For Arcane Fusion, I just double checked the rules for Archivist.   There is no rule stating that a spell scribed by the archivist ceases to be a spell on the source list.  Hence it remains a valid target for Arcane Fusion by default. 

A sorcerer can't generally use a prayerbook both because the spells are typically not sorcerer spells and because the spells are always divine.  But if an archivist scribed a divine sorcerer spell into their prayerbook and then created an arcane version of the same spell on a scroll?  The scroll could be used by a sorcerer as it has an arcane type and is on the sorcerer's spell list.  Similarly, a Druid spell scribed into a prayerbook, memorized, and scribed onto a scroll could be used by a Druid according to scroll use rules: http://www.d20srd.org/srd/magicItems/scrolls.htm.

[PlzBreakMyCampaign]

So you finally listened to me about how arcane fusion allows for nuking more HP than your mundanes can survive. That said, I still dislike casters. And I'm glad you finally made it over here with the big boys. I'm getting tired of dodging bans over at the gulagGitP, so I don't read it much anymore. I even had a big "BANNED" as my picture over there for my last account

"Legality is tricky here: Twin is +4. Easy Metamagic[Twin] makes it +3. Arcane Fusion subtracts 1 for Twin, 1 for Easy MM[T], and 1 for Alternate Spell Source, making Twin +0." You mean Arcane Thesis, and no it only works on twin not easy MM or ASS.

"I assume that you can Wish for a spell with metamagic at the adjusted metamagic level." Not without DM permission under 'similar effects' RAW you have to metamagic the wish (effected 10 or more level spell slot) to do this.

Also I never expect spells to take full effect. I always expect targets to have mettle and make their saves when seemingly possible.

"A Supernatural spell is not dispellable. Not even by Disjunction." Not technically true. "All magical effects and magic items within the radius of the spell, except for those that you carry or touch, are disjoined. That is, spells and spell-like effects are separated into their individual components (ending the effect as a dispel magic spell does)". Supernatural spell does not stop these effects from being spells even if they count as (Su).

"Arcane Spell Surge, Wizard 7, Dragon Magic. All arcane spells are immediate." My copy of DM64 says "1 swift action" rather than 'immediate' anywhere.

"From Surge of Fortune:
Quote: The result of the next attack roll ... is treated as a natural 20." Next attack roll != next 40 attack rolls if we consider the spell text more specific than the metamagics text -- a valid interpretation.

"Superm. S L Permant Spell = free undispellable permanent spells." What is this?

Lastly, do not that I proudly don't follow the "metamagic however you want it" interpretation.

tl;dr you pretty much just cobbled together the most broken things you can find (wish greater effects, shapechange, chronotyrns, Friendly Fire, celerity, etc). This does take time, or course. Attempting this without 9th level or clearly broken spells nor +1 or +2 PrCs would be more interesting.

[Dictum Mortuum]

So you finally listened to me about how arcane fusion allows for nuking more HP than your mundanes can survive. That said, I still dislike casters. And I'm glad you finally made it over here with the big boys. I'm getting tired of dodging bans over at the gulagGitP, so I don't read it much anymore. I even had a big "BANNED" as my picture over there for my last account

That was so funny

[Anthrowhale]

So you finally listened to me about how arcane fusion allows for nuking more HP than your mundanes can survive.

ExFighter can take the hit.

You mean Arcane Thesis

Correct, fixed, thanks.

no it only works on twin not easy MM or ASS.

I don't follow.  Easy MM and ASS are [metamagic]

"I assume that you can Wish for a spell with metamagic at the adjusted metamagic level." Not without DM permission under 'similar effects' RAW you have to metamagic the wish (effected 10 or more level spell slot) to do this.

I disagree here.  A spell with metamagic is still a spell and hence a valid target for Wish.  What's unclear in the rules is what the "level" should be.  By RAW, metmagic (except for Heighten) does not adjust spell level.  But, this is silly.  I'm using the Arcane Fusion Errata rules (adjusted spell slot level) rather than RAW.  I think that's far more reasonable.

I always expect targets to have mettle and make their saves when seemingly possible.

The save breaking is admittedly the weakest defense breach, because it can be subverted by Choose Destiny, Steadfast Determination, the Pride domain, or Luck rerolls.

"A Supernatural spell is not dispellable. Not even by Disjunction." Not technically true. "All magical effects and magic items within the radius of the spell, except for those that you carry or touch, are disjoined. That is, spells and spell-like effects are separated into their individual components (ending the effect as a dispel magic spell does)". Supernatural spell does not stop these effects from being spells even if they count as (Su).

The text of Supernatural Spell appears to be ambiguous on this point.  It says:  "... use any one spell with a casting time of up to 1 standard action as a supernatural ability." which implies the rules for supernatural abilities govern by default.  On the other hand, it says that "The spell functions as it normally would, ... but..." and lists no exceptions for dispelling.  I'm not sure how to resolve this.  The second part could be meant as clarification of the first or simply elucidation of a subset of effects of the first.

It's interesting that you argue a supernatural spell is a spell [for the purpose of dispelling], but that a metamagic spell is not a spell [for the purpose of wish]. 

"Arcane Spell Surge, Wizard 7, Dragon Magic. All arcane spells are immediate." My copy of DM64 says "1 swift action" rather than 'immediate' anywhere.

Fixed, thanks.

"From Surge of Fortune:
Quote: The result of the next attack roll ... is treated as a natural 20." Next attack roll != next 40 attack rolls if we consider the spell text more specific than the metamagics text -- a valid interpretation.

That's interesting.  My interpretation of:  "Any variable characteristics (including attack rolls) ... are applied to both spells ..." is that there is only one attack roll.  But yours is that there are two attack rolls that happen to be the same?

"Superm. S L Permant Spell = free undispellable permanent spells." What is this?

Sorry, Permanency.  Fixed, thanks.

tl;dr you pretty much just cobbled together the most broken things you can find (wish greater effects, shapechange, chronotyrns, Friendly Fire, celerity, etc).

There are plenty of other broken things out there.

Attempting this without 9th level or clearly broken spells nor +1 or +2 PrCs would be more interesting.

The build itself seems viable at lesser levels with L9 being the first point where it's a substantial bump above a more typical wizard.  Doing the same with less does seem desirable, but probably not possible.

[ariasderros]

First, Stop responding to other people who are accusing you of using broken tricks by stating that there are broken tricks that you didn't use or that there are other broken things out there. I liken this to a murderer being on trial trying to have his defense be that there are other murderers that have killed in many different ways than what he did. It isn't a defense, or even a counterpoint at all.

Second, you are correct that this doesn't start out as TO, but that is true of most TO tricks. They take a while to come online. Were-Battletitan at level one being a notable exception. Stating that the trick doesn't come online until "X" level doesn't change that the crux of the build is that series of tricks. Stating that it is playable at earlier levels is likewise moot when talking about a build that is built up from a T1 base class, as you would have to put some effort in making that not viable.

Third, If I use a trick that could let me enter a PrC at level 4, when it is designed to not be entered until level 6, that is early entry. If I decided to have 2 levels of Fighter in there, and thus delay the entry to be level 6, that doesn't change the fact that I am still using early entry. E.g.: If I am an Illumnian Archivist 1, Wizard 2, using Improved Krau and Alternative Source Spell to qualify for Mystic Theurge as my 4th level, that is early entry; If I am an Illumnian Factotum 3, Archivist 1, Wizard 2, using Improved Krau and Alternative Source Spell to qualify for Mystic Theurge as my 7th level, that is early entry despite the fact that the PrC is designed to be entered at L7, because I am still not fulfilling the prerequisites with the intended levels, but rather I am using early entry methods, then filling in the levels with other material.
As I said, you are getting out of taking levels in an actual Arcane casting class, and you are getting out of taking a level that would grant actual access to the Magic Domain. That is early entry, regardless of when you do so.

Fourth, effects produced by Supernatural abilities cannot be dispelled, but they can be disjoined. That is what Plz was referencing. He is correct.

Fifth, as for initiative, I did not say that if had anything to do with the twinning, just as a result of fullcaster, and how you are using it already. The trick you mentioned works as well as many others.

Sixth, pointing out that an epic monster, with maximum defensive abilities, can take the hit is like saying that The Twice Betrayer can survive the assault from the Hulking Hurler. In TO vs TO, the collateral is more relevant than who the victor is. And ExFighter is just an Epic Monster that you've taken control of.

[Quillwraith]

no it only works on twin not easy MM or ASS.

I don't follow.  Easy MM and ASS are [metamagic]

Okay, I know CO uses a lot of abbreviations, but... ASS? I think we've gone too far.

[linklord231]

Even assuming everything works the way you say it does, you still have no way of bypassing immunities.  This is a major flaw in any would-be T.O. build. 

[ariasderros]

Even assuming everything works the way you say it does, you still have no way of bypassing immunities.  This is a major flaw in any would-be T.O. build.

You might have missed the part where he isn't trying for TO. He's trying for CO.

It is just that he is doing this by going Archivist > Dweomerkeeper, assuming access to any / all needed spells for Archivist, using early entry for DK so-as to fit in even more PrC features into the build, and then using the Dk in the most abusive possible way, topping it off with things like recursive twinning.

Sooo..... T1 (Archivist) > T0 (Archivist with access to magic-mart for any spell as a divine scroll he could so desire) > T-1 (Dweomerkeeper) > T-2 (early enrty to DK, stacking even more PrC feature into the build) > TO (all of the above + using tricks).

And if you are an Archivist with access to every spell in the game already, you can blow through any immunities you so choose by dispelling / disjoining them, using Ability Rip on them, etc.

[Anthrowhale]

First

The analogy seems off---it's more like being accused of genocide and claiming murder.  Stutter demonstrates recursive twin in the best way possible.  The only thing that I added to the build beyond that was DMM[Persist].

Second,

I'm still interested if you can pin down the border between CO and TO better.  Also, would you be any happier with a Sorcerer/Cleric based build?  Just about everything is translatable.

Third,

I think we understand each other here.

Fourth, effects produced by Supernatural abilities cannot be dispelled, but they can be disjoined. That is what Plz was referencing. He is correct.

I'm unclear here on two points:  It sounded like Plz was referring to the 'spell' clause in disjunction, and I don't see evidence that disjunction works on Su.  Which wording makes you believe that?  Su is not generally a spell or spell-like effect.

Sixth

Sorry, should have added a smiley face with that reference It was a joke.

ASS? I think we've gone too far.

It's worse than that: the build has two ASSes   Arcane Spell Surge and Alternate Source Spell.

[Anthrowhale]

you still have no way of bypassing immunities. 

As ariasderros says.   The build has effective spontaneous access to nearly all desirable spells and access to all spells in a prepared manner.  Beyond that, you'll need to get specific about which immunities.

[linklord231]

you still have no way of bypassing immunities. 

As ariasderros says.   The build has effective spontaneous access to nearly all desirable spells and access to all spells in a prepared manner.  Beyond that, you'll need to get specific about which immunities.

The stated goal was to make any save/SR/attack roll spell "stick". This is impossible without some way of bypassing or removing immunities to the spells you're using, whatever they may be. If your answer to that is "use a different spell," why bother with the nested Twin trick?

[PlzBreakMyCampaign]

But yours is that there are two attack rolls that happen to be the same?

I have a very different understanding of metamagic. So when I'm replying about how (other) people are using it, I'm actually doing a conversion in order for me to talk about it the way that they expect. To me, metamagic stacks additively instead of multiplicatively.

And about the wish thing: I parse Wish(Metamagic(spell)) -> (spell) and Metamagic(wish(spell)) -> Metamagic(spell) because Metamagic(spell) is the same level as (spell) unless its heighten. But you already get the benefits of this when you wish. Sounds nicely reducable, huh? Otherwise you'd gain a free level of metamagic upon wishing for a 7st level wizard spell, rather than expending a 10th level spell slot like you should. That is why I say your use of Wish is fine but only for the 'greater' or 'similar' effect clause which is unfortunately explicitly DM-dependent and a significant power bump. Again, a TO boundary.

Doing the same with less does seem desirable, but probably not possible.

Well if you want to please others, offering your build in phases would be good. People tend to be a little aggressive here than you might be used to.

As ariasderros says.   The build has effective spontaneous access to nearly all desirable spells and access to all spells in a prepared manner.  Beyond that, you'll need to get specific about which immunities.

With more, um, exposure you'll see that this raises eyebrows. You wanted to know the line between TO and CO and you're approaching it merely with this sentence. That's why my triple 9's build is just a hair past CO in my opinion. I'm actually a good person to PM about this since I enjoy making builds at the upper end of CO. Two notable differences are limits and goals.