Stutter caster

[ariasderros]

Allow me to explain where this hits TO.

In D&D, you have certain attack modes, and certain defenses against them.
The intent was for them to be somewhat equal.
In this, they fail.
The reason being for their failure is that mundane classes generally are stuck using attack modes targeting AC & HP, and with their primary defenses being AC, HP, and some good saves and some bad saves. Conversely, a well-built caster can target whichever defense he wants (choosing what he believes will be the weakest), and layer multi-various defenses for himself.

That said, those defenses are still there as a basic portion of what balance there is, and provides much of the actual difficulty of an encounter. Rocket Tag is already a problem in the game, but at least what defenses there are do manage to make a dent in that at times.

Then you have this. The point of the build, to circumvent most of the standard defenses, is what makes it TO. Normally, Saves, AC, SR, and immunities are the only things that can stop the Rockets. This concept causes Saves to be hit hard by IP, AC gets ignored due to 20's, and Supernatural means there is no SR. They can still make the save (maybe), and they still might be immune. So you still might not be able to hit a Construct or Dwarffang with the Disease spell, you have a butload of other options to choose from that those targets would be screwed by. Basically, unless you are running low on spells for the day, you auto-win every encounter as soon as your turn hits, and since you are a caster with gouda already, something tells me you might be in Dire Tortoise form, with a +12 to Initiative (at least) and a few other things.

You go first, you hit them with something they cannot resist, and you walk away having won any and every encounter with no in-game effort (the build is the only point of effort). That is TO. When every single encounter is already determined before it starts, unless it is against another TO character or against things that are clearly designed TO (such as certain Epic monsters), then you are TO too.

[Anthrowhale]

If your answer to that is "use a different spell," why bother with the nested Twin trick?

The answer varies quite a bit by circumstances.  Some immunites like "immunity to magic" are dealt with directly.  Others require indirect attacks, with the worst case being pretty bad. 

Consider mind control.  The standard approach to mind control is enchantment[charm] spells for which immunity is common at high levels.   Instead, you can autohit with Necrotic Cyst by stripping the SR:Yes and Twinning through the Fort Neg followed by stripping the SR:Yes from Necrotic Domination and Twinning through the Will Neg.  Or you could Disjunction followed by a Charm Monster that is SR:No with (effectively) no save.  The first captures an enemy humanoid spellcaster intact in the middle of a battle.  The second is an autowin against spell based defenses like mindblank + high saves.

I parse Wish(Metamagic(spell)) -> (spell) and Metamagic(wish(spell)) -> Metamagic(spell)

My understanding is that by RAW you can Wish(Metamagic(Spell)) since a metamagic spell is a spell.  This is ridiculous, since you don't pay for the metamagic.  My solution is as per the errata of Arcane Fusion.  Yours is as above.   Yours would weaken the approach substantially, while I expect mine would be more common.

You wanted to know the line between TO and CO and you're approaching it merely with this sentence.

That's good to know.  I hadn't realized that approaching TO was as easy as full archivist spell access.

Well if you want to please others, offering your build in phases would be good. People tend to be a little aggressive here than you might be used to.

Let me suggest two lower power variants of this build, based on a Sorcerer and a Wizard.

Stutter Sorcerer

(click to show/hide)

Human Sorcerer 4/Cleric 1 (Magic, Rune Domains)/Dweomer Keeper 10/Lore Master 5

Feats are:
1.  Invisible Spell
(Human) Cooperative Spell
3. Arcane Preparation
(Domain) Scribe Scroll
6. Sanctum Spell
9. Twin Spell
12. Arcane Thesis[Arcane Fusion]
15. Arcane Thesis[Limited Wish]
(Frog God's Fane) K(something)
18. Arcane Thesis[Greater Arcane Fusion]
19 or 20. Arcane Thesis[Wish]

Stutter Wizard

(click to show/hide)

Human Wizard 4/Cleric 1 (Magic, ?? Domains)/Dweomer Keeper 4/Wyrm Wizard 2/Dweomer Keeper 5/Wyrm Wizard 2/Dweomer Keeper 1/Lore Master 1

Feats are:
1.  Invisible Spell
(Human) Cooperative Spell
(Wizard) Scribe Scroll
3. Sanctum Spell
6. Twin Spell
9. Versatile Spellcaster
12. Arcane Thesis[Arcane Fusion]
15. Arcane Thesis[Limited Wish]
18. Arcane Thesis[Greater Arcane Fusion]
(Frog God's Fane) K(something)
20. Arcane Thesis[Wish]

Both of these builds rely on neither Dragon nor Unearthed Arcana material and use no strange entry tricks.  They both drop persistent spell, but retain the full ability to do recursive twinning.  The end state for spell access is Sorcerer 19/Cleric 1 and Wizard 17/Cleric 1 with spell access lost gradually throughout the builds making them fairly playable throughout.  In short, you can't complain about the _means_, as some of the earlier responses did.  Are these considered TO in your opinion?

Allow me to explain where this hits TO.

That's helpful thanks.

If you optimize offense, then you are optimizing to defeat the generic defenses.  Presumably degree of success is then the deciding factor between CO and TO.   But the requisite degree of success is not clear to me.  Let's consider Monster Manual opponents as a baseline. 
(a) The Mailman build pretty much always hits, and can inflict an expected 285 damage at L20 with a single SR:No, no save, touch attack spell: GAF (Tw Ma Orb, Tw AF (Orb, Tw Ma Orb)).  Given that this build can cast ~4 spells in a round, this is an autowin against basically all Monster Manual monsters.  Is this TO?  It seems like much of your discussion points in the same direction. 
(b) The ability of Stutter to breeze through multiple encounters might be overestimated as there are only 4 Supernatural Spells/day which can generally only be used to overwhelm 1 or 2 opponents.  Without the Su spells, Stutter is reduced to Twin GAF [L4, Twin AF [L4, L1] ] which is not so fierce.  Using Orbs, this is 405 expected damage if you can make the touch attacks.

[ariasderros]

That's good to know.  I hadn't realized that approaching TO was as easy as full archivist spell access.

Point. In Dungeons and Dragons, versatility / options = power. The higher tier classes are such because of their options and their versatility. Granting the Archivist full spell access grants absolute versatility, only limiting options based on what was prepared that day.

Sooo..... T1 (Archivist) > T0 (Archivist with access to magic-mart for any spell as a divine scroll he could so desire) > T-1 (Dweomerkeeper) > T-2 (early enrty to DK, stacking even more PrC feature into the build) > TO (all of the above + using tricks).

Many people view T0 as being the point of being TO.

Both of these builds rely on neither Dragon nor Unearthed Arcana material and use no strange entry tricks.  They both drop persistent spell, but retain the full ability to do recursive twinning.  The end state for spell access is Sorcerer 19/Cleric 1 and Wizard 17/Cleric 1 with spell access lost gradually throughout the builds making them fairly playable throughout.  In short, you can't complain about the _means_, as some of the earlier responses did.  Are these considered TO in your opinion?

Less so, and at this point you will get more dissent amongst the opinions as to whether it is or not. Basically, the division lines would be how high op people tend to play.

The main problem, really, is the fact of how easy you can get your effects through. You are negating much of the purpose of people investing into boosting their saves, because you are forcing them to focus on the IP of saves / SR.

If you avoid anything on this list, or anything similar, then it is CO, if you spam nothing but buffs and things on that list, then you are using the trick for TO.

An important note here is that there are some who think the Dweomerkeeper is so obscenely powerful, that it it TO on its own. This is triply so when using it to avoid Exp / Material Component costs.

Also, you are correct that the mailman can one-shot encounters at the highest level, at that point he does hit TO too. The mailman is iconic because he takes a concept that sorcerers are traditionally supposed to be able to do (direct damage), but normally can't (spell damage in D&D sucks), then makes it work. And even he ends up hitting TO with something that casters normally suck at.

What you are doing here isn't optimizing something that casters have trouble with, you are taking their bread & butter, and making it even better. Therefore, it is going to be much easier for you to breach into TO territory. What is more is, your stated objective itself is a part of what TO is about: making the expected limits of the game (in this case, enemy defenses) irrelevant. Thusly, you are either going to succeed at your goal, and have TO, or you will have something left that doesn't meet your goals.

[Captnq]

For Anyspell, do you believe that a Druid/Contemplative taking the Spell domain would be able to prepare an arcane spell in the (single) 3rd level slot where they can prepare a domain spell?  I'd say "yes" and I expect that most would agree.

I'm not familiar with Druid/Contemplative. Are his spells listed like: 4+1, 3+1, 3+1, 2+1? If so, then yes. If there is no "+1", then the answer is No. You can cast the spell from any source, but you need to have "+1" in your 3rd level available spells.

BTW, it IS possible to have access to a domain but not be able to cast any of the spells. Access to and ability to use are two different things. Remember, most domains come with a perk just for knowing it.

For Arcane Fusion, I just double checked the rules for Archivist.   There is no rule stating that a spell scribed by the archivist ceases to be a spell on the source list.  Hence it remains a valid target for Arcane Fusion by default. 

I don't care if it's on the spell list. You are confusing spell lists with class spells.

Example:

I'm a sorcerer. I forget the spell but my cleric friend does that thing where you loan a spell. Now I have cure light wounds "memorized". Can I cast it in Arcane Fusion? Nope. I don't know it, so it's not a sorcerer spell.

I go with the BS to become a sacred Sorcerer. I now have access to the sacred list of spells. Now, by YOUR logic, I cannot use Arcane Fusion with any of those spells. However, those spells are added to MY spell list. Not the spell list of every Sorcerer on the planet. They become Sorcerer spells, For ME, and me alone.

See, the problem is how they worded it. They said it allows you to select Sorcerer Spells. They didn't say, "From the sorcerer list." Well, what's a sorcerer spell? A sorcerer spell is a spell cast by a sorcerer. If I figure out how to add cure light wounds to my list of spells know as a sorcerer, when I cast it, is it clerical? Is it Emissary of Barachiel? Kitsu School? Paladin of Tyranny?

No. They may have access to the spell, but this particular spell that I am casting is Sorcerer, because I'm a sorcerer and casting it.

I have to be a sorcerer to CAST a sorcerer spell. I can be a wizard, and cast spells that are from the sorcerer spell list, but the spell itself is a wizard spell, because that's the class I am using to cast it. A wizard using Arcane Fusion cannot select a 1st and 4th level sorcerer spell any better then an Arcanist.

Now, if they said, "From the sorcerer LIST" That would a whole other can of worms.

A sorcerer can't generally use a prayerbook both because the spells are typically not sorcerer spells and because the spells are always divine.  But if an archivist scribed a divine sorcerer spell into their prayerbook and then created an arcane version of the same spell on a scroll?  The scroll could be used by a sorcerer as it has an arcane type and is on the sorcerer's spell list.

Well, yes. But not for the reasons you think they are. An archivist using Alternate Source could scribe an Arcane version of a spell from the Sorcerer List onto a scroll. He could read it, because it's on his spell list. However, the spell itself would be an Arcane Archivist Spell, because an Archivist scribes it.

Similarly, a Druid spell scribed into a prayerbook, memorized, and scribed onto a scroll could be used by a Druid according to scroll use rules: http://www.d20srd.org/srd/magicItems/scrolls.htm.

A spell list says what spells you can use off a scroll. Using a spell doesn't change who scribed it.

It doesn't come up very often, but this is one of those times. Here...

Magic missile
Force Domain 2, Knight of the Weave 1, Nentyar Hunter 1, Sorcerer/Wizard 1, Warmage 1, Wu Jen 1

Now, it's a arcane spell and divine, depending on who's casting it. But, Magic Missile is NOT on the cleric spell list. If I had full access to the cleric spell list, I could not cast this spell, even if it was scribed on a divine scroll. I need access to the Force Domain spell list before I could cast it directly from the scroll without a UMD roll. Sure, it's a divine spell, but it's not on my spell list, I cannot use it.

Now, as an archivist, if you find someone with the force domain to scribe you a scroll, you can then copy that spell over into your spellbook. When you cast it, it is now an Archivist spell. As you cast it, it's Archivist, NOT Force Domain. Get it?

Sorry, but using Arcane Fusion as an archivist isn't RAW.

[Captnq]

If your answer to that is "use a different spell," why bother with the nested Twin trick?

Consider mind control.  The standard approach to mind control is enchantment[charm] spells for which immunity is common at high levels.   Instead, you can autohit with Necrotic Cyst by stripping the SR:Yes and Twinning through the Fort Neg followed by stripping the SR:Yes from Necrotic Domination and Twinning through the Will Neg.  Or you could Disjunction followed by a Charm Monster that is SR:No with (effectively) no save.  The first captures an enemy humanoid spellcaster intact in the middle of a battle.  The second is an autowin against spell based defenses like mindblank + high saves.

I wouldn't mind adding this to The Spellbook, but it's just so ugly. Can to rewrite it so it flows in plain english? Maybe some sentence structure?

I parse Wish(Metamagic(spell)) -> (spell) and Metamagic(wish(spell)) -> Metamagic(spell)

My understanding is that by RAW you can Wish(Metamagic(Spell)) since a metamagic spell is a spell.  This is ridiculous, since you don't pay for the metamagic.  My solution is as per the errata of Arcane Fusion.  Yours is as above.   Yours would weaken the approach substantially, while I expect mine would be more common.

You do pay for the metamagic.

Example (Duplicate any other spell of 6th level or lower, provided the spell is not of a school prohibited to you.):
1) I wish I could cast triadspell (5th level cleric) No problem.
2) I wish I could cast Twin triadspell (9th level cleric) No. Twin pushed the level of the spell over 6th. It is not eligible for duplication by a wish.

BTW, What Arcane Fusion Errata are you speaking of?

You wanted to know the line between TO and CO and you're approaching it merely with this sentence.

That's good to know.  I hadn't realized that approaching TO was as easy as full archivist spell access.

Well, yes.

Theoretically, an archivist has access to every divine spell. That's over 9,000 spells. In realilty, you are supposed to start off at 1st level and learn your spells from scrolls. Only 30% of scrolls generated randomly are divine. Furthermore, you would be limited to the spells available on the random scroll list in the DMG. So, in another way, Archivists are supposed to be limited by the fact that access to divine scrolls isn't easy to come by. How many Clerics are you going to find willing to scribe Anyspell for you? What god do you worship, heathen Archivist from the book Heroes of HORROR?

See? TO vs CO.

If you optimize offense, then you are optimizing to defeat the generic defenses.  Presumably degree of success is then the deciding factor between CO and TO.   But the requisite degree of success is not clear to me.  Let's consider Monster Manual opponents as a baseline.

Degree isn't the factor here. Look.

I got a player Her monk does about 485 HP damage on a hit, she hits AC 100 on a 1 against touch attack AC. Between Flurry of blows/AoO/Cleave she gets about a thousand attacks a round.

She can do this because the campaign past 30th level about 6 months ago and the party works as a team. Between the cleric/wizard and the druid dumping group buff spells and the Monk player's keen mind at Min/Maxing. But only when they are working as a team.

Catch the party napping, pick them off, seperate the party, it's a whole different situation. I still kill them from time to time. Yes, it's rocket tag, to some degree. I've just had to up my game, that's all. BTW, the game is RAW 100%. Played from 1st level. I made them go through a 3 session quest just to get a handy haversack. They clawed through HELL to get every last XP and magic item. I'm an asshole. I don't Do Magic Mart. You find it, I suggest you use it. Because Wizards/Clerics don't spend XPs magic magic items for just ANYBODY. You ain't got NOTHING coming to you. I don't care what WBL says, my players were ALWAYS way below WBL because the equipment they found was logical. I didn't make treasure lying about just for the players. You wanted a new spellbook? Go out and kill a wizard and take his spellbook or wait forever for a custom job.

Now, if someone figures out how to make an unstoppable juggernaught with only 1 PC, that's TO.

If you figure out how to do what my player's do at say, 15th, that's TO

My players are brutally powerful, but considering how bad I hamstring them, it's a miracle they survived.

Now, If I were to run your 20th level PC up against my entire party of 30th+ level players, I suspect you'd kill all of them but the monk. She's immune to everything and has a few dozen tricks, especially now that she's branched out into Binding. Actually, I'd call her a binder now, instead of a monk. She really stopped being a monk at 14th level now that I think about it.

If your PC can trounce a party of 30th level PCs, you're TO.

[ariasderros]

A sorcerer can't generally use a prayerbook both because the spells are typically not sorcerer spells and because the spells are always divine.  But if an archivist scribed a divine sorcerer spell into their prayerbook and then created an arcane version of the same spell on a scroll?  The scroll could be used by a sorcerer as it has an arcane type and is on the sorcerer's spell list.

Well, yes. But not for the reasons you think they are. An archivist using Alternate Source could scribe an Arcane version of a spell from the Sorcerer List onto a scroll. He could read it, because it's on his spell list. However, the spell itself would be an Arcane Archivist Spell, because an Archivist scribes it.

You are incorrect here.

To have any chance of activating a scroll spell, the scroll user must meet the following requirements.

The spell must be of the correct type (arcane or divine). Arcane spellcasters (wizards, sorcerers, and bards) can only use scrolls containing arcane spells, and divine spellcasters (clerics, druids, paladins, and rangers) can only use scrolls containing divine spells. (The type of scroll a character creates is also determined by his or her class.)
The user must have the spell on his or her class list.
The user must have the requisite ability score.

To this point, as far as whether he can Arcane Fusion spells that are in the Sorcerer list despite casting them as an Archivist is Rules-Grey. RAW seems to lean towards his interpretation, RAI seems to lean towards not being able to. But it is unclear, and there is argument for either.

To everything else you said +1

[Anthrowhale]

I'm not familiar with Druid/Contemplative. Are his spells listed like: 4+1, 3+1, 3+1, 2+1? If so, then yes.

They are "like" 4+1, 3+1, 3+1, 2+1, 1+1, 0+1 or 5,4,4,3,2,1 or any chosen interpolation.  The complete divine states that when other classes than clerics gain a domain, they gain the ability to cast one domain spell of each level per day, but they do not gain any extra spells/day.  Stutter relies on this for the ability to cast Anyspell.  (It's explained in the assumptions section.)

Access to and ability to use are two different things.

This is not the case for Contemplative.  I can quote the relevant bits of complete divine if you have any doubt.

I'm a sorcerer. I forget the spell but my cleric friend does that thing where you loan a spell. Now I have cure light wounds "memorized". Can I cast it in Arcane Fusion? Nope. I don't know it, so it's not a sorcerer spell.

Correct.  It's "Imbue with spell ability".

I go with the BS to become a sacred Sorcerer. I now have access to the sacred list of spells. Now, by YOUR logic, I cannot use Arcane Fusion with any of those spells.

I suspect you don't understand my logic?  Because that is not the conclusion.  Any spells added to a sorcerer's spell list is a vaild target for arcane fusion.

As far as I can tell with your other examples, the following illustrates our divergence: "that archivist spell is a druid spell".  You believe this can't be true by definition, but I'm aware of no rule anywhere which proves your view.  In my view, an archivist could have several spells which are druid spells.  If the archivist scribes it in a scroll, then the druid can use it.  Furthermore, if the archivist gets "storm of vengeance" from the nobility domain and scribes it as a scroll, the druid can use it.  In general, being an X spell does not exclude being a Y spell where X and Y are classes or domains.  To change my opinion, you need to find a rule somewhere.

Well, yes. But not for the reasons you think they are. An archivist using Alternate Source could scribe an Arcane version of a spell from the Sorcerer List onto a scroll. He could read it, because it's on his spell list. However, the spell itself would be an Arcane Archivist Spell, because an Archivist scribes it.

Reading it is directly forbidden by the rules of scroll use I linked previously.  An archivist can only read divine scrolls.

I wouldn't mind adding this to The Spellbook

The Spellbook?  What's an example of what you want?

You do pay for the metamagic.

You are using my interpretation.  It's not correct by RAW because metamagic doesn't generally adjust spell level, but it's the obvious reasonable choice with support from the Arcane Fusion errata, which is here: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/files/CompleteMage_Errata.zip

In realilty, you are supposed to start off at 1st level and learn your spells from scrolls.

It's certainly correct that spell access is a potential limiting factor for Stutter.

If your PC can trounce a party of 30th level PCs, you're TO.

Your 30+ level PCs didn't chose epic spellcasting?
 

versatility / options = power.

That's a traditional view, but one could be a skeptic as well.  Using the Mailman again, there is somewhat less versatility compared to other sorcerers, but it's TO at L20 in your view.

IP of saves / SR.

IP = ?

If you avoid anything on this list, or anything similar, then it is CO, if you spam nothing but buffs and things on that list, then you are using the trick for TO.

That's a nice list.  It's missing Illusory Pit which is an L6 stun even on a save.

[ariasderros]

I wouldn't mind adding this to The Spellbook

The Spellbook?  What's an example of what you want?

Explanation: "The Spellbook" is a project of Captnq's wherein he analyzes spells and their use. He liked part of what you wrote, and was requesting for you to please re-write it without the shorthand so that he may include it in his work, with appropriate credit given to you of course. In the spoiler below, you will see the paragraph that he was referencing, as well as his request.

(click to show/hide)

If your answer to that is "use a different spell," why bother with the nested Twin trick?

Consider mind control.  The standard approach to mind control is enchantment[charm] spells for which immunity is common at high levels.   Instead, you can autohit with Necrotic Cyst by stripping the SR:Yes and Twinning through the Fort Neg followed by stripping the SR:Yes from Necrotic Domination and Twinning through the Will Neg.  Or you could Disjunction followed by a Charm Monster that is SR:No with (effectively) no save.  The first captures an enemy humanoid spellcaster intact in the middle of a battle.  The second is an autowin against spell based defenses like mindblank + high saves.

I wouldn't mind adding this to The Spellbook, but it's just so ugly. Can to rewrite it so it flows in plain english? Maybe some sentence structure?

Note: I realize that my paraphrasing of his request was much clearer and more polite, it isn't that he meant to be brash or anything, that's just how he writes. Many of us are used to him by now.

If your PC can trounce a party of 30th level PCs, you're TO.

Your 30+ level PCs didn't chose epic spellcasting?

Epic Spellcasting breaks the game. I might as well ask you why Stutter didn't just Dominate a sarrukh.
And in any case, Stutter is the epitome of Rocket Tag. It doesn't matter what they have for offence, if you go first and circumvent their defense.

versatility / options = power.

That's a traditional view, but one could be a skeptic as well.  Using the Mailman again, there is somewhat less versatility compared to other sorcerers, but it's TO at L20 in your view.

There are always exceptions. Hulking Hurler is TO too. Even if you can't do everything, you can make yourself TO in one or more aspects.  Basically, as I said earlier, once any normal level of challenge is removed from the game, you have hit TO. If the only things the DM can do to challenge you is throw things that are clearly overpowered at you, you are TO.

IP of saves / SR.

IP = ?

Iterative Probability. In essence, the odds of you failing over multiple rolls is higher than if you just had to make one. Because IP has such a bad history of sparking all out debates wherein logic and reason are not included, I will not be saying anything more on the topic. If you want a more thorough definition, look it up, them make your own opinion.

If you avoid anything on this list, or anything similar, then it is CO, if you spam nothing but buffs and things on that list, then you are using the trick for TO.

That's a nice list.  It's missing Illusory Pit which is an L6 stun even on a save.

It's missing a lot of stuff. Thus the "anything similar".

[Forumowicz]

I'm not familiar with Druid/Contemplative. Are his spells listed like: 4+1, 3+1, 3+1, 2+1? If so, then yes. If there is no "+1", then the answer is No. You can cast the spell from any source, but you need to have "+1" in your 3rd level available spells.

BTW, it IS possible to have access to a domain but not be able to cast any of the spells. Access to and ability to use are two different things. Remember, most domains come with a perk just for knowing it.

I think Anthrowhale has a point here. By taking Contemplative level you do gain the domain and the ability to cast spells from it. Altough there is no table saying "+1", because that is a very specific case, but if one would make such a table I believe it should have the "+1". The Contemplative explictly mentions that you gain "the granted power associated with the domain she chooses, and can select the spells in that domain as her daily domain spells.". In my opinion, it is written in such a way that there is no condition to be met, like possessing domain spell slots. It simply states that you gain the ability to select spells from that domain as her daily domain spells. All of the text is about what you gain and in a case where you did not possess domain spells, you gain them to prepare spells from that domain, which in consequence gives you the ability to use anyspell.

I don't care if it's on the spell list. You are confusing spell lists with class spells.

Example:

My understanding of your reasoning is that sorcerer spell is defined as a spell which is on the spell list of the particular sorcerer. I would disagree on that interpretation and actually refer to the source of the spell, which is not exactly spell list, but rather what mechanics let you cast the spell. I would say that if someone is a cleric and uses a cleric spell which also happens to be on a paladin spell cannot use Battle Blessing with it, but if the mentioned cleric would use some trickery to get something similar to Expanded Knowledge and derive the same spell from the paladin casting, than he could use it. In the disputes case he is gaining the spell from the mechanics of sorcerer spellcasting, which his casting mechanic allows him to do and I believe that the spell doesn't stop to be a srocerer one in the process.

Theoretically, an archivist has access to every divine spell. That's over 9,000 spells. In realilty, you are supposed to start off at 1st level and learn your spells from scrolls. Only 30% of scrolls generated randomly are divine. Furthermore, you would be limited to the spells available on the random scroll list in the DMG. So, in another way, Archivists are supposed to be limited by the fact that access to divine scrolls isn't easy to come by. How many Clerics are you going to find willing to scribe Anyspell for you? What god do you worship, heathen Archivist from the book Heroes of HORROR?

See? TO vs CO.

I don't think it is that easy to set a line between TO and CO. I haven't played an archivist but if I would, I suppose I'd try to get access to those tons of divine spells in a different way than just wait and pray, so that my DM is very generous/the rolls will be extremely favourable. In a campaign where archivist only relies on luck/DM I think it should at least push him down to tier 2. Naturally, there are numerous ways to get past that limitations and I would expect any archivist to try to do that even if they risk being bashed with a book. Some DMs would allow, others wouldn't and I don't think such attempts are TO.

Degree isn't the factor here. Look. (...)

TBH I didn't understand the factor in your example. If I were to define CO and TO, I would say that if you optimize for practical purposes, it's CO and if you optimize for theoretical purposes, it's TO. In my opinion arguing with the creator wether it's CO or TO makes no sense, because he knows best what the purpose of his creation is. Now, you can say that it is unusable in just about any session, which is actually pretty much the same. I just felt that the problem formulated in this way is easier to dicuss.

[PlzBreakMyCampaign]

Most of the other stuff has been addressed. Your stutter casters are high-powered fullcasters usings what is probably a loophole. Assuming you're in a very high powered game with full casters spouting wishes every battle, those builds are not TO if you have a good DM. And a good DM enforces balanced interpretations like the Wish parsing and metamagic stacking idea I mentioned. Assuming that's in place, the build is playable.

Without those balancing factors, you've just reached TO and the build isn't playable. So I'd let you in my games with that build if I ever went crazy and enjoyed having full casters sprout the highest arcane magics, but it wouldn't work completely the way you'd expect it to. I'm not saying you're interpretations are abusive, but I am saying that there are more reasonable ones that should be advocated if the build is to be used.

[Anthrowhale]

Explanation: "The Spellbook" is a project of Captnq's wherein he analyzes spells and their use.

I'd need an example of what he wants.

Epic Spellcasting breaks the game.

Exactly.  100% RAW L30+ spellcasters should be untouchable.

It doesn't matter what they have for offence, if you go first and circumvent their defense.

I took a closer look at that spell list.  The better spells seem to be:

Enervation // -50 levels.  Requires Surge of Fortune to guarantee hit.

Charm Monster // Friend for weeks.  Mind-affecting
Fear // Self stacks for autopanic.  Mind-affecting, Fear
Dolorous Motes // Range long 10' cube/level Daze.  Mind-affecting.  No sacrifice required for Su spells.

Ice Lance // 1d4 round stun Range Medium
Burning Blood // round/level only move actions
Radiant Fog // Blinding solid fog 20' radius 20' high
Cloud of Bewilderment // 10' cube Nausea for 1d4+1 rounds

The L1 spells are special as they are free riders.  Grease and Wall of Smoke are standouts.

Saves of at least 25 (resist+5, Empyreal armor+5 + levels +stats) + catalogues of enlightenment[pride domain] shuts down almost everything.  Adding in fear immunity, freedom of movement, negative effects immunity (soulfire armor) eliminates the remainder.  A few prepared opponents might have all of these (or equivalents).

[Anthrowhale]

I don't disagree with anything that Forumowicz or Plz says.  Nerfing Wish(Metamagic(Spell)) would substantially reduce the power of the build so that it is not too much beyond Mailman.

[Endarire]

My question is, "How prepared at each level/CR do foes need to be to have a 50% chance of not going ASPLODE when you two are in the same fight?"  More specifically, when do stock creatures of your ECL +4 (or less) stop having at least a 50% chance of saving/ignoring the effect?  Also, what about optimized, pre-built characters?

Anthrowhale: You remind me of myself about powerful material, arguing that what you propose isn't over the top.  I'm not claiming it's broken or rules-dodgy, but, as I've learned, it's not suitable for play in a typical D&D campaign.  On a positive note, it's a cool idea!

[Captnq]

I think Anthrowhale has a point here. By taking Contemplative level you do gain the domain and the ability to cast spells from it. Altough there is no table saying "+1", because that is a very specific case, but if one would make such a table I believe it should have the "+1". The Contemplative explictly mentions that you gain "the granted power associated with the domain she chooses, and can select the spells in that domain as her daily domain spells.". In my opinion, it is written in such a way that there is no condition to be met, like possessing domain spell slots. It simply states that you gain the ability to select spells from that domain as her daily domain spells. All of the text is about what you gain and in a case where you did not possess domain spells, you gain them to prepare spells from that domain, which in consequence gives you the ability to use anyspell.

Having read Contemplative, it says, "+1 level of existing divine spellcasting class." You are making a contemplative druid. Your druid advances in level but has no ability to cast domain spells. Nothing under contemplative says you gain X+1. You gain the domains. You gain the domain perks. You cannot cast a single spell off the domain list. That's RAW. Your DM may allow something else, but by the rules, No.

The goal of posting an idea here is to have people poke holes in it. I poke holes so you can find a way to get around your holes. Perhaps there is a druid alternate class feature that would allow the OP to get X+1 spells.

I'd need an example of what he wants.

Well, you could download it.

EXAMPLES:
Blood Snow
Editor (Blaster): As long as there’s snow, this spell is outright broken for the level. You cause snowy ground in a huge area to nauseate everyone touching it, and to take 1d2 Con drain (Fort negates both effects). Lasts several rounds.
Spell Synergy: Or, the druid can use Blizzard to produce the snow needed for this Blood Snow spell, and then slowly drain the constitution away from the victims while they’re practically helpless within the Blizzard.

Embrace the dark chaos
Spell Synergy: Shun the Dark Chaos. Two spells which enable the tactic known as the Dark Chaos Feat Shuffle, which is somewhere between extremely useful and horribly, horribly broken. Don’t like your feats? Add a feat, remove the feat and replace it with a new feat. 500 xp a shuffle.

REVENANCE
Editor (Buff): This spell can target any character that died within 1r/CL of casting. The subject comes back to life (as if by Raise Dead except with no penalties) and is able to fight (with a +1 morale bonus on attack, damage, and saves against the person who killer her) for 1 minute per level, at the end of which the character dies again.
Spell Synergy: Revivify. Okay Revivify sucks because you only have ONE round to cast it. BUT, this spell brings her back to life (Not undeath) and then, gets this, DIES AGAIN. So, if you miss the revivify window, slap this on someone and bring them back, when you have the time, kill them then use revivify. Kinda sucks someone has to dies repeatedly,

BALEFUL POLYMORPH
Spell Synergy: To have a little fun, use baleful polymorph to turn someone into a tiny animal. Use animal messenger to send the animal to an enemy with a message that reads, “I prepared explosive runes today.” Boom.

See? More plain spoken English, less jargon.

Exactly.  100% RAW L30+ spellcasters should be untouchable.

Actually, we have an agreement. I don't use epics spells if they don't. Keeps the campaign from exploding too much. I keep expecting it to explode, but every time we inch up to the edge of unplayable, they get bored and stop using a particular combo. Although there is talk of an all Mystic Ranger campaign. We'll see if that ever happens. It'd be nice to move away from cosmic horrors for a while. Get back to running orcs and Polar frogs.

[linklord231]

I think Anthrowhale has a point here. By taking Contemplative level you do gain the domain and the ability to cast spells from it. Altough there is no table saying "+1", because that is a very specific case, but if one would make such a table I believe it should have the "+1". The Contemplative explictly mentions that you gain "the granted power associated with the domain she chooses, and can select the spells in that domain as her daily domain spells.". In my opinion, it is written in such a way that there is no condition to be met, like possessing domain spell slots. It simply states that you gain the ability to select spells from that domain as her daily domain spells. All of the text is about what you gain and in a case where you did not possess domain spells, you gain them to prepare spells from that domain, which in consequence gives you the ability to use anyspell.

Having read Contemplative, it says, "+1 level of existing divine spellcasting class." You are making a contemplative druid. Your druid advances in level but has no ability to cast domain spells. Nothing under contemplative says you gain X+1. You gain the domains. You gain the domain perks. You cannot cast a single spell off the domain list. That's RAW. Your DM may allow something else, but by the rules, No.

The goal of posting an idea here is to have people poke holes in it. I poke holes so you can find a way to get around your holes. Perhaps there is a druid alternate class feature that would allow the OP to get X+1 spells.

This is factually inaccurate.  The "Extra Domains" section on pg 20 of Complete Divine says this: 

If a noncleric enters a prestige class that allows access to a domain, the character still gains access to the domain. She can use the granted power bestowed by the domain normally. If she memorizes spells like a druid, paladin, or ranger, then she can simply choose to memorize one of that domain’s spells instead of one of her usual spells, but never more than one domain spell of each level.

So you don't get the bonus domain slot as an extra slot, but one of your normal slots essentially turns into a Domain Slot that can also be used to cast your normal spells. 

[Rebel7284]

A one level dip into Holt Warden from CC will, however, give domain slots.

[ariasderros]

My question is, "How prepared at each level/CR do foes need to be to have a 50% chance of not going ASPLODE when you two are in the same fight?"  More specifically, when do stock creatures of your ECL +4 (or less) stop having at least a 50% chance of saving/ignoring the effect?  Also, what about optimized, pre-built characters?

Anthrowhale: You remind me of myself about powerful material, arguing that what you propose isn't over the top.  I'm not claiming it's broken or rules-dodgy, but, as I've learned, it's not suitable for play in a typical D&D campaign.  On a positive note, it's a cool idea!

This.

[Anthrowhale]

More specifically, when do stock creatures of your ECL +4 (or less) stop having at least a 50% chance of saving/ignoring the effect? 

Looking at stock NPCs, I believe "ECL+4 loses" when (Supernatural) Twin Arcane Fusion is available which is ECL 9 for the archivist and 12 for the wizard and sorcerer.  Consider for example:
Supernatural Twin Arcane Fusion (Fear, Color Spray).  If all 4 saves are made, the enemy runs away for 1 round due to shaken escalating to fear.  If a Color Spray save fails they are Stunned for 1 round.  If a Fear save fails, they are Panicked for many rounds.  If a Fear and a Color Spray save fail, they are Cowering for many rounds.  Due to Supernatural any spell resistance is irrelevant. 

Mettle would help, as does immunity to fear.  An alternative attack is: Twin Arcane Fusion (Greater Orb, Orb) which does an expected 115 damage for the archivist (and more for the others) against things with a ~10 touch AC. 

The next quantum up from that is probably L13 (arcane spell surge) for the archivist or L15 (Limited Wish) for the others.  At that level it certainly over power ECL+4 opponents.

Also, what about optimized, pre-built characters?

Optimization levels vary so wildly that it's as above to never.

Your druid advances in level but has no ability to cast domain spells.

This is incorrect for the reasons stated by linklord231.

For your spellbook:

Necrotic Domination:
Has an enemy humanoid wizard's mindblank made your enchantment spells irrelevant?  Here's a two-step fix.  1) Hit them with Necrotic Cyst.  2) Hit them with Necrotic Domination.  Now, you own an enemy spellcaster with all their defenses and items intact.
Also see: Necrotic Tumor: the level 7 variant for living nonhumanoids.

[Mister Freeze]

Minor quibble: the mother cyst spells also need to target something living. 

[linklord231]

The Necrotic Cyst line requires the Mother Cyst feat to cast, and I don't see it on your list.  Also, as a form of mental control, it's blocked by Protection from Evil despite not being Mind Effecting.