[Pathfinder] Magaambyan Arcanist PrC - WTF?

[Power]

A while ago, Paizo released a Pathfinder splatbook called Paths of Prestige, where they added some 30 prestige classes to Pathfinder.

One of these prestige classes is the Magaambyan Arcanist (listed as Collegiate Arcanist in d20pfsrd). As far as I understand, the purpose of this prestige class is to grant Druid spells, Good domain spells, 1 minute preparation (1 full-round action at level 9), and spontaneous casting to Wizards. There's some other stuff too, like permanent protection from evil, caster level and duration bonus for good spells, etc.

Is it just me or is this prestige class a little overpowered?

Aside from Magaambyan Arcanist we also have Daivrat for adding power to wizards.

[Craiconn]

It's a powerful PrC.  It's *another* huge kick in the junk to the Sorceror's spellcasting mechanics. 

I have to check, but I think there's a BoED feat that converts a lot (or all) of your spells into [Good] descriptor spells.  If so, that would be an outstanding feat for this build.

"Easy Bake Wizards" (Gorfnad's invention?) would love this PrC. 

I love these kind of PrCs.  Savvy optimization should be able to make a wizard with this PrC have a TREMENDOUS amount of spontaneous casting and spell-choice versatility.

[Power]

Speaking of spontaneous casting, if you're playing pure Pathfinder, go Spellbinder Wizard 6/Collegiate Arcanist 9/Daivrat 5, save the 6th level of Spellbinder for last level, and take Eldritch Heritage (Arcane). This way you can get 2 Bonded Spells to swap into prepared slots on top of your regular spontaneous casting.

By the way, did you look at the Daivrat PrC? With 5 levels of that you can nab any 6th level spell or lower from anywhere and add it to your class at +2 levels (+1 if it's on your class list - ie. if you're using it to lower spell levels by taking from the Summoner list, etc.). A wizard with 6th level spells can take Paladin spells and add them to their class list. You could even delve into obscure archetype and PrC spell lists for lowered spell levels. Also, if you exploit the daily limit vs 24 hour duration, you can prepare/know 2 spells at once.

[Craiconn]

Daivrat is very interesting, too.  I'm going to work on converting both Collegiate Arcanist and Daivrat back to 3.5 play.

******************

On a related note .... for wizards .... a perfect, perfect, perfect Druid spell to acquire through Collegiate Arcanist is Spellstaff.

Stick a Rary's Arcane Conversion into the Spellstaff.  And now you have super-maximum versatility.  There's a magic item in the MIC that costs 18,000 GP that simulates this exact same trick.

[Honeyko]

Considering that mast PrCs are munckin-traps demonstrably worse than the base class they purportedly "upgrade", it's refreshing to actually encounter one worth considering. (So, thanks for the top.)

[Squirel_Dude]

It's a powerful PrC.  It's *another* huge kick in the junk to the Sorceror's spellcasting mechanics. 

*shrug* As long as half elves and humans have access to paragon surge, Oracles will be the best classes in the game as casters. Wizards can always properly prepare for a situation, but Oracles can have any cleric or wizard spell ready at a moment's notice.

[Power]

It's a powerful PrC.  It's *another* huge kick in the junk to the Sorceror's spellcasting mechanics. 

*shrug* As long as half elves and humans have access to paragon surge, Oracles will be the best classes in the game as casters. Wizards can always properly prepare for a situation, but Oracles can have any cleric or wizard spell ready at a moment's notice.

I dunno. Scarred Witch Doctors, as con-based casters, can get positively disgusting DCs on their spells by stacking all sorts of con-buffs, and they get insane hp pools which make them hard to kill. You can also combine them with Collegiate Arcanist and some other spell list stealing PrCs...

[Squirel_Dude]

The Scarred Witch Doctor is nice, but the Half-Elf Oracle has:
 - Better Hit Dice
 - Better BAB
 - More Skills per level
 - Access to a better spell lists (both of them at once)
 - A Better casting mechanic
 - Access to the Battle Mystery for Heavy Armor and Martial Weapon Proficiency, DR 10/Adamantine, etc, rolling for initiative multiple times, Free combat maneuver feats, etc.

CODzilla lives!



But yeah, Collegiate Arcanist would still wipe the floor with most things. Paragon Surge is just borks the game right now is all.

[Power]

The Scarred Witch Doctor is nice, but the Half-Elf Oracle has:
 - Better Hit Dice

I'm pretty sure the Scarred Witch Doctor will still be laughing his ass off at the Oracle's hp pool though.

The witch doctor also has insane saving roll DCs from all the different con-bonuses he can stack.

And he actually has a really strong fortitude save. (Then again a lawful good oracle can Bestow Grace of the Champion on himself for crazy saves once a fight starts.)

- Better BAB

Could be good for ray/touch spells, but that's more important for blasters than god casters.

- More Skills per level

It's spiffy, aye.

- Access to a better spell lists (both of them at once)

Yes, but between Pathfinder Savant, Daivrat, Collegiate Arcanist, and other PrCs the Witch can have any spell below 9th level anyway.

Not to mention that with Daivrat, a witch can prepare a non-class spell into a slot, and if the witch doesn't expend it, keep that spell prepared and prepare another non-class spell into new slots the next day.

- A Better casting mechanic

Debatable. Spontaneously choosing your spell is good, but getting to metamagic spells as a standard action is solid, and with good spell-prep a Collegiate Arcanist is pretty close to spontaneous caster with Paragon Surge.

- Access to the Battle Mystery for Heavy Armor and Martial Weapon Proficiency, DR 10/Adamantine, etc, rolling for initiative multiple times, Free combat maneuver feats, etc.

Rolling for initiative multiple times is the sweet part. The DR 10/adamantine is just activating Stoneskin as a Su ability. And why would you want to favor weapons as a god caster? Also, if you want to use armor as a Scarred Witch Doctor, use Arcane Concordance for free Still Spell (and +1 enhancement to DCs) and equip yourself silly while ignoring somatic components. Screw armor proficiency (bye attack rolls & skill checks), you're good to go.

You can get Arcane Concordance a few ways:

• Add it to your prepared spells with some PrC, then cast it with Still Spell feat (possibly using Magical Lineage for a meta cost reducer).
• Use a scroll to craft a wand, and then use the last charge to craft new wands as needed. You will need a good UMD (is a class skill) to cast from wand though.
• Stand near a friendly bard who cast it.

We haven't even discussed what Witch hexes can do, like coven abuse or (mis)fortune cackling.

[Squirel_Dude]

The Scarred Witch Doctor is nice, but the Half-Elf Oracle has:
 - Better Hit Dice

I'm pretty sure the Scarred Witch Doctor will still be laughing his ass off at the Oracle's hp pool though.

The witch doctor also has insane saving roll DCs from all the different con-bonuses he can stack.

Forgot about the con based casting thing. Yeah, getting a minimum of +4/+5 to hp every level from the start of the game is awesome.

And he actually has a really strong fortitude save. (Then again a lawful good oracle can Bestow Grace of the Champion on himself for crazy saves once a fight starts.)

Yeah, that spell is nuts.

- Access to a better spell lists (both of them at once)

Yes, but between Pathfinder Savant, Daivrat, Collegiate Arcanist, and other PrCs the Witch can have any spell below 9th level anyway.

Not to mention that with Daivrat, a witch can prepare a non-class spell into a slot, and if the witch doesn't expend it, keep that spell prepared and prepare another non-class spell into new slots the next day.

The problem with trying to get all three of those classes is that they require, between them, five feats to qualify. Only two of the required feats are decent (spell foc. : Conj., and an item creation feat), two fo them are +2/+2 feats, and one is spell mastery, which, as written, can only be taken by wizards. You'd also be losing 2 caster levels between those three prestige classes.

Of course, the worst feat prereqs are for collegiate arcanist, but the best powers. It's the only one of the three that allows access to 9th level spells.

Daivrat has the best feat prereqs, but the ability to recover spells is 1/day and only allows the wizard to then prepare the spell for the next 24 hours. It can't be an 8th level spell (*cough* bards, inquistors, summoners *cough*  ) until the 8th level of the prestige class. Very nice, but limited.

The same lack of 9th level spell limitation (*cough* bards, inquistors, summoners *cough*  ) can be found with the Arcana Savant.

- A Better casting mechanic

Debatable. Spontaneously choosing your spell is good, but getting to metamagic spells as a standard action is solid, and with good spell-prep a Collegiate Arcanist is pretty close to spontaneous caster with Paragon Surge.[/quote]I'll just disagree. With

- Access to the Battle Mystery for Heavy Armor and Martial Weapon Proficiency, DR 10/Adamantine, etc, rolling for initiative multiple times, Free combat maneuver feats, etc.

Rolling for initiative multiple times is the sweet part. The DR 10/adamantine is just activating Stoneskin as a Su ability. And why would you want to favor weapons as a god caster? Also, if you want to use armor as a Scarred Witch Doctor, use Arcane Concordance for free Still Spell (and +1 enhancement to DCs) and equip yourself silly while ignoring somatic components. Screw armor proficiency (bye attack rolls & skill checks), you're good to go.

You can get Arcane Concordance a few ways:

• Add it to your prepared spells with some PrC, then cast it with Still Spell feat (possibly using Magical Lineage for a meta cost reducer).
• Use a scroll to craft a wand, and then use the last charge to craft new wands as needed. You will need a good UMD (is a class skill) to cast from wand though.
• Stand near a friendly bard who cast it.

We haven't even discussed what Witch hexes can do, like coven abuse or (mis)fortune cackling.
[/quote]Yeah, cackling is awesome. The point with the heavy armor is that all of a sudden the oracle has the same (& better) weapon proficiencies that a cleric had in 3.5, and now they have a better access to the same spell list, and better access to the best spell list in the game.

Overall, I think the point stands that the Collegiate Arcanist doesn't do anything to break the game, if only because Paragon surge already bent it over its knee.

[Power]

The Scarred Witch Doctor is nice, but the Half-Elf Oracle has:
 - Better Hit Dice

I'm pretty sure the Scarred Witch Doctor will still be laughing his ass off at the Oracle's hp pool though.

The witch doctor also has insane saving roll DCs from all the different con-bonuses he can stack.

Forgot about the con based casting thing. Yeah, getting a minimum of +4/+5 to hp every level from the start of the game is awesome.

By the end of the game it's going to be much, much, much more than +5 hp/level for a scarred witch doctor.

And he actually has a really strong fortitude save. (Then again a lawful good oracle can Bestow Grace of the Champion on himself for crazy saves once a fight starts.)

Yeah, that spell is nuts.

Agreed. CODzilla is pretty scary, and that spell reads more like a fanfic than anything else.

- Access to a better spell lists (both of them at once)

Yes, but between Pathfinder Savant, Daivrat, Collegiate Arcanist, and other PrCs the Witch can have any spell below 9th level anyway.

Not to mention that with Daivrat, a witch can prepare a non-class spell into a slot, and if the witch doesn't expend it, keep that spell prepared and prepare another non-class spell into new slots the next day.

The problem with trying to get all three of those classes is that they require, between them, five feats to qualify. Only two of the required feats are decent (spell foc. : Conj., and an item creation feat), two fo them are +2/+2 feats, and one is spell mastery, which, as written, can only be taken by wizards. You'd also be losing 2 caster levels between those three prestige classes.

Yes, it costs feats, but you can cover it. I'm also not so sure about getting all of those PrCs at once. It's generally Daivrat or Savant. You do lose the 1 spellcaster level each from Daivrat and Savant, but you can cover casting level loss with a Magical Knack trait, and you're still able to get 9th level spells (Witch gets 9th level at 17 normally).

Also, Spell Mastery for Magus/Witches is a no-brainer houserule. It also becomes a good feat once your Collegiate Arcanist PrC backs it up. If you read the Collegiate Arcanist PrC, by the way, you'll notice the PrC text itself acknowledges that you could obtain it as a Witch. The Paizo "RAW not legal, but you should def. houserule this" ruling appeared later (which is also a fucked up way to avoid erratas: "It's not allowed, but it should be, but we don't want to errata, so you should houserule.").

Of course, the worst feat prereqs are for collegiate arcanist, but the best powers. It's the only one of the three that allows access to 9th level spells.

All of them allow 9th level spells. The only 9th level spell you get out of Collegiate Arcanist though is Summon Monster IX (good version only) from the good domain, and that one's already on the class list without the good restriction.

Daivrat has the best feat prereqs, but the ability to recover spells is 1/day and only allows the wizard to then prepare the spell for the next 24 hours. It can't be an 8th level spell (*cough* bards, inquistors, summoners *cough*  ) until the 8th level of the prestige class. Very nice, but limited.

The same lack of 9th level spell limitation (*cough* bards, inquistors, summoners *cough*  ) can be found with the Arcana Savant.

You don't go for the 8th level of the prestige class. You either go 2 levels deep for 3rd level or 5 levels deep for 6th level spells as a Daivrat. Once you have 6th level spell access, you just plunder discount spells from Paladin/Inquisitor/Bard/Summoner spell lists and you can even get a few 9th level spells this way. Don't forget archetypes (Watersinger & Detective bard) for more discounted spells.

Also, you forget: prepared spells stay prepared until expended. You don't need to replace them with fresh slots next time you prepare spells. This is why you can slowly, with Daivrat levels, get in multiple different spells outside your class list, so long as you don't expend them.

If you want 9th level spells you can also just cheese Improved Eldritch Heritage (Arcane) (possibly with Paragon Surge, in which case I guess you want Collegiate Arcanist for fast spell prep) as a Witch, considering a Witch obtains Patron spells through the Spells Known mechanic too.

- Access to the Battle Mystery for Heavy Armor and Martial Weapon Proficiency, DR 10/Adamantine, etc, rolling for initiative multiple times, Free combat maneuver feats, etc.

Rolling for initiative multiple times is the sweet part. The DR 10/adamantine is just activating Stoneskin as a Su ability. And why would you want to favor weapons as a god caster? Also, if you want to use armor as a Scarred Witch Doctor, use Arcane Concordance for free Still Spell (and +1 enhancement to DCs) and equip yourself silly while ignoring somatic components. Screw armor proficiency (bye attack rolls & skill checks), you're good to go.

You can get Arcane Concordance a few ways:

• Add it to your prepared spells with some PrC, then cast it with Still Spell feat (possibly using Magical Lineage for a meta cost reducer).
• Use a scroll to craft a wand, and then use the last charge to craft new wands as needed. You will need a good UMD (is a class skill) to cast from wand though.
• Stand near a friendly bard who cast it.

We haven't even discussed what Witch hexes can do, like coven abuse or (mis)fortune cackling.

Yeah, cackling is awesome. The point with the heavy armor is that all of a sudden the oracle has the same (& better) weapon proficiencies that a cleric had in 3.5, and now they have a better access to the same spell list, and better access to the best spell list in the game.

CODzilla does sound like fun, even if there are better ways to use an oracle.

Overall, I think the point stands that the Collegiate Arcanist doesn't do anything to break the game, if only because Paragon surge already bent it over its knee.

Hahaha. I still think the crazy insta-prep is nuts.

[Power]

Eh, bumping to note that the PrC is actually called Magaambyan Arcanist and not Collegiate Arcanist.

[Southern Cross]

I would like to point out that the Druid spells you gain access to are two spell levels lower than your characters arcane spells, which limits you to a maximum of seventh-level Druid spells (or sixth level Druid spells, if you get access to this prestige class ASAP). Also, Magaambyan Arcanist  only grants access to Good spells at level 9.