[3.5] Bind Elemental

[Pippin]

Hello,
I am currently looking for all the different ways to reduce Gold/XP costs while creating items with an Artificer, and I was reading the Bind Elemental feat supplementals, in Magic of Eberron, starting page 11. We can implicitly read that binding 19+ HD Elementals is possible (see table, page 13)  but it is clearly mentionned that one has to use the appropriate Planar Binding spell when binding the Elemental: this means, Lesser Planar Binding for a Medium Elemental, Planar Binding for a Large one, or Planar Binding, Greater for a Huge one, for instance.

So, what spell should I use for binding a Greater or Elder one? Is it implied that Planar Binding, Greater also works for 19+ HD Elementals ?
Also, do Monoliths count as Elementals and can thus be binded as well ? Or are Elder Elementals the limit ?
Thank you all.

[Bastian]

According the the rules provided in Magic of Eberron, Planar Binding spells are only the most common type of spells used to bind elementals, not the only. It doesn't however say what those others are but I seem to remember thinking that Gate works (though I don't know if that is actually true).

Planar Binding, Greater does not work for 19+ HD Elementals.

All creatures of the elemental type work, the best one is a whale with the elemental creature template.

If you are looking for crafting cost reduction, see the link in my sig.

[Pippin]

Thank you for your answer!

Well, it is true that nobody will ever summon a Greater Elemental with Planar Binding, Greater. However, I think we have to  distinguish spells when they are normally cast, and spells when they are required for crafting something. There are many items whose required spell is only here because it shares something in common with the item. For instance, Mage Armor is required for the Robe of the Archmagi, however the robe grants a +5 bonus to AC, not a +4 as it should. Fox's Cunning, which grants a +4 bonus to Int, is required for the Headband of intellect +6. Resistance is required for the Cloak of resistance.

The book made sure players should use the appropriate Planar Binding spell for 1-18 HD Elementals when using the feat, but as they did not mention any other rule, it seems logical to me that the appropriate Planar Binding spell holds (the Greater one) for bigger Elementals. Anyway, if we assume that Gate becomes the required spell for 19+ HD Elementals, I am quite sure that there would be no XP cost. (Same thing, a normally cast spell should not be compared to a required spell, besides they never mentioned anywhere in the feat description that there would be an XP cost at some point). Do you think that what I just said make sense?

Also, thank you for the link. I've read it already (partially though) and I discovered the Magical Artisan feat thanks to it. This is a freaking good feat for an Artificer as it modifies the final cost instead of the base price. Sadly, it only works for one crafting feat at a time. If I were to play an Artificer, I would probably put it on the Craft Staff feat. Used with Apprentice, Extraordinary Artisan, Bind Elemental and of course the appropriate Craft Item feat, the gold cost almost equals one fifth of the initial base price...

Speaking of cost reduction, I think a player does not get the right to reduce the final gold cost by restricting the use of the item with a class or skill, as you implied he does on your posts. I think we have to distinguish items that can be created by the player, and items whose value can be assessed by the player here. We sure can assess the value of an Elf-only Headband of intellect +6, but the player isn't able/allowed to craft it. The crafting system is already cheesy enough, they don't need that. Same thing for the Skill reduction imho.

One last thing, you forgot to answer this: would you consider legal to bind an Elemental Monolith thanks to the Bind Elemental feat? Saving 25% instead of 20%. Thank you anyway for your past answer.

[Gazzien]

Slightly tangential, but Extraordinary Artisan (as well as Exceptional and Legendary) are [Item Creation] feats, and thereby legal targets for Magical Artisan, so MA applies to everything (because those three feats always apply).

Also, Bind Elemental requires a Khyber Shard per item, which costs between 4d4*75 and some higher amount (can't recall offhand) for larger ones, though you can make do with the ~750gp ones by jacking the DC up. You also need a second caster to use the Bind Elemental feat (who can also cast your decided binding spell, but doesn't need the Bind Elemental feat), and you need to make a CHA check like you were bargaining for a task with the elemental...

Depending on how reliable your Khybrr Shard access / second caster access is, it might be worth it to switch out Bind Elemental For one of the other Artisan fears, and just attach Magical Artisan to that.

[Pippin]

I don't think any DM would ever agree to let a player target another Artisan feat with Magical Artisan. This feat is better than Extraordinary and Legendary Artisan combined. For a single feat. That's way too cheesy, though what you said is technically true

The Cha check would not be a problem, there are many spells/items that can help you get over it, like Moment of Prescience.

[Gazzien]

If we're already getting crafting down that low... -shrug- the main problem is the 750 go Khyber shard, anyways, because they're explicitly rare on the market, even with that price.

[Bastian]

Thank you for your answer!

Well, it is true that nobody will ever summon a Greater Elemental with Planar Binding, Greater. However, I think we have to  distinguish spells when they are normally cast, and spells when they are required for crafting something. There are many items whose required spell is only here because it shares something in common with the item. For instance, Mage Armor is required for the Robe of the Archmagi, however the robe grants a +5 bonus to AC, not a +4 as it should. Fox's Cunning, which grants a +4 bonus to Int, is required for the Headband of intellect +6. Resistance is required for the Cloak of resistance.

I already know that distinction. It doesn't matter however since the Planar Binding spells are both requirements for the items and they need to be cast normally while making that item (see Magic of Eberron).

The book made sure players should use the appropriate Planar Binding spell for 1-18 HD Elementals when using the feat, but as they did not mention any other rule, it seems logical to me that the appropriate Planar Binding spell holds (the Greater one) for bigger Elementals. Anyway, if we assume that Gate becomes the required spell for 19+ HD Elementals, I am quite sure that there would be no XP cost. (Same thing, a normally cast spell should not be compared to a required spell, besides they never mentioned anywhere in the feat description that there would be an XP cost at some point). Do you think that what I just said make sense?

Nope, it would cost XP. See above.

Also, thank you for the link. I've read it already (partially though) and I discovered the Magical Artisan feat thanks to it. This is a freaking good feat for an Artificer as it modifies the final cost instead of the base price. Sadly, it only works for one crafting feat at a time. If I were to play an Artificer, I would probably put it on the Craft Staff feat. Used with Apprentice, Extraordinary Artisan, Bind Elemental and of course the appropriate Craft Item feat, the gold cost almost equals one fifth of the initial base price...

Speaking of cost reduction, I think a player does not get the right to reduce the final gold cost by restricting the use of the item with a class or skill, as you implied he does on your posts. I think we have to distinguish items that can be created by the player, and items whose value can be assessed by the player here. We sure can assess the value of an Elf-only Headband of intellect +6, but the player isn't able/allowed to craft it. The crafting system is already cheesy enough, they don't need that. Same thing for the Skill reduction imho.

Doesn't matter what you want, it matters what the rules actually say. If a DM says otherwise that is fine but until then RAW is RAW.

One last thing, you forgot to answer this: would you consider legal to bind an Elemental Monolith thanks to the Bind Elemental feat? Saving 25% instead of 20%. Thank you anyway for your past answer.

I didn't forget to answer that. Also, Elemental Monoliths are gargantuan and can never become colossal (no matter how much HD they have) so you math is off. Whales, however, become colossal at 19 HD (and have really shitty saves).

All creatures of the elemental type work, the best one is a whale with the elemental creature template.

[Pippin]

Oh I see. I actually misread the feat description, I first thought a Large Elemental would grant a 5% reduction, a Huge one a 10% reduction, a Greater one a 15% reduction and an Elder one a 20% reduction. Only the size of the creature matters, I understand why you're talking about whales now: the creature does not need to be an Elemental. Thanks for pointing that out.

Raw is raw. There are many different, legal ways to get infinite wishes. None of them will ever work. What's the point in believing in something no decent DM will ever accept ?

Well, I will never pay 1,000 XP for calling a whale... There must be a cheesy solution... Like going under the sea, catch one, use Gate and go to a safer plane (no predators around) then finally bind it but classier.

[Bastian]

Oh I see. I actually misread the feat description, I first thought a Large Elemental would grant a 5% reduction, a Huge one a 10% reduction, a Greater one a 15% reduction and an Elder one a 20% reduction. Only the size of the creature matters, I understand why you're talking about whales now: the creature does not need to be an Elemental. Thanks for pointing that out.

Just to make sure you know (since you worded that badly), you do indeed need to bind an elemental, you can't just bind any creature. When I'm referring to whales, I mean Elemental Whale (whales that have the elemental creature template) as previously stated.

Raw is raw. There are many different, legal ways to get infinite wishes. None of them will ever work. What's the point in believing in something no decent DM will ever accept ?

Because then you arguing over what people want, rather than what actually is. Effectively, everyone would be arguing from a standpoint of their favorite homebrew, which would be pointless.

Well, I will never pay 1,000 XP for calling a whale... There must be a cheesy solution... Like going under the sea, catch one, use Gate and go to a safer plane (no predators around) then finally bind it but classier.

You only need to pay that XP for elemental whales that are colossal, gargantuan elemental whales can be called with Greater Planar Binding. If a template can be found that allows a whale to increase in size without increase HD, that would work.

[Pippin]

Just to make sure you know (since you worded that badly), you do indeed need to bind an elemental, you can't just bind any creature. When I'm referring to whales, I mean Elemental Whale (whales that have the elemental creature template) as previously stated.

Yup I understood it that way.

As for the colossal whale, I'm not really familiar with templates so I looked elsewhere. I thought of Animal Growth but I assume that this would not work as the spell is not permanent (this may be DM's call). Sadly, Polymorph Any Object is 15 HD max...