Harpoon and spiked chain questions

[Rainbowseb]

Hi guys!

I have some questions regarding these weapons...

1/ Harpoon (Arms and Equipment guide)

It says that "If it deals damage, the harpoon lodges in an opponent
who fails a Reflex saving throw...The harpooned creature can pull the harpoon from
its wound if it has two free hands and it takes a fullround
action to do so, but it deals damage to itself
equal to the initial damage the harpoon dealt."

Now what happens if the PC removes the harpoon? And what kind of action would it take to do it?


2/ Spiked chain (PH)

I see everywhere that it is awesome because you can use weapon finesse AND power attack with... but I just don't see how someone could power attack with something like that...
To me power attacking means smashing the opponent with all the strength and weight we can. This would not be transferred through a spiked chain as it would with a solid 2 handed weapon.
So can we really use power attack with the spiked chain?

RS

[Nanshork]

Spiked Chain - D&D physics has nothing to do with real world physics.  Unless it is specifically stated somewhere that power attack can't be used with a weapon (as far as I'm aware no specific weapon says you can't power attack with it, there's just the stipulation in the feat itself) then you can.  So yes, you can power attack with the spiked chain just as you would a greatsword.  D&D doesn't make any differentiation based on how the weapon is constructed.

Also, it isn't great because of weapon finesse + power attack.  It is great because it is a reach weapon that you can use to attack adjacent enemies, plus you can make trip attacks with it (a common tactic for spiked chain users), plus it is a two-handed weapon for power attack goodness.

[Captnq]

First, make sure to use the updated version. Stormwrack is the most current.

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- ARMS AND EQUIPMENT GUIDE (3.0)
- FROSTBURN (3.5)
- STORMWRACK (3.5)
- SWORD AND FIST (3.0)
Exotic Ranged Weapon
Cost: 15 gp
Damage (s): 1d8
Damage (m): 1d10
Critical: x2
Range: 30 ft
Weight: 10 lb
Type: P
Ammo: Thrown
The harpoon is a broad-bladed spear forged with barbs. The shaft of the harpoon has a trailing rope attached to control harpooned opponents. Though designed for hunting whales and other large sea creatures, the harpoon can be used on dry land. If it deals damage, the harpoon lodges in an opponent who fails a Reflex saving throw (DC 10 + the damage dealt). A harpooned creature moves at only half speed and cannot charge or run. If you control the trailing rope by succeeding on an opposed Strength check while holding it, the harpooned creature can move only within the limits that the rope allows (the trailing rope is 30 feet long). If the harpooned creature attempts to cast a spell, it must succeed on a DC 15 Concentration check or lose the spell. The harpooned creature can pull the harpoon from its wound if it has two free hands and takes a full-round action to do so, but it deals damage to itself equal to the initial damage the harpoon dealt. A character who succeeds on a DC 15 Heal check can remove a harpoon without further damage.
Editor: Thrown, sticks in the enemy, deals double damage being pulled out. Can be attached to a rope to control movement. Interesting weapon. It can be lodged in an opponent if they fail a Reflex save, and deals the same damage when pulled out as it did going in. The returning enchantment could theoretically just cause it to do double damage, but that’s definitely a DM’s call. Raise the damage as much as possible, as the DC for the save is 10 + damage dealt. A harpooned creature moves at half speed, cannot charge or run, and if you attach a rope to it you can limit their movement away from you. It can be removed with a full round action, which deals damage again. Occasionally helpful for battlefield control.
Editor (WSAs): Only WSAs that directly modify the base damage will be included when you remove it. For example, collision will add 5 damage going in, and five coming out. However, acidic burst will only do damage when you crit. You will have to examine each one and confirm with your DM.
Editor (Exit Wound): This one is a tough one. By the rules, the harpoon hits. It does damage. The target fails a saving throw. It passes right through them doing double damage on the way through. However, since it passes through, the rope technically is no longer inside the target either. In fact, there is no point to using the rope, because it won’t stay in the target.
Editor (Returning/Teleporting): Teleporting won’t do any extra damage, but returning will.

Second, May I direct you to the Weapon Handbook for your weapon questions.

Third, It's fairly straight forward. Full-round action to remove. Take as much base damage as you took going in. Note, most WSAs will not kick in when you remove it.

As for chain Nanshork's right. Reality has no place here at Min/Max. Note that Elven Courtblade Sword, Elven thinblade Sword, Chain, Chain lash, Drow scorpion chain, Dragonsplit, Kawanaga, lynxpaw, etc is the same way.

However, he is wrong in that there are a number of one-handed weapons that cannot be power attacked with. They are specifically listed as such. The rapier, ribbonweave, Spinning sword, and quickblade are the four.

[Nanshork]

@Captnq

I can't say anything about the others but the Rapier says nothing about not being able to power attack.

Rapier

You can use the Weapon Finesse feat to apply your Dexterity modifier instead of your Strength modifier to attack rolls with a rapier sized for you, even though it isn’t a light weapon for you. You can’t wield a rapier in two hands in order to apply 1½ times your Strength bonus to damage.

[Captnq]

@Captnq

I can't say anything about the others but the Rapier says nothing about not being able to power attack.

Rapier

You can use the Weapon Finesse feat to apply your Dexterity modifier instead of your Strength modifier to attack rolls with a rapier sized for you, even though it isn’t a light weapon for you. You can’t wield a rapier in two hands in order to apply 1½ times your Strength bonus to damage.

Ah. My apologizes. What I mean is, you can't add x1.5 strength to the weapon, so what's the point of power attacking? It's like taking radiant holding on razorfeather ammuniton. True, you are twice as likely to crit, but you are still doubling 1 lousy point of damage.

[Rainbowseb]

Mmmh... So let's say that the chain hooks into the opponent deeper if you power attack, causing more damage...

Now for the harpoon, is there a way to make the most out of its special properties?
Returning looks nice for double damage.
Can I take more advantage of the fact that it is lodged into my opponent? Is there some spell that could be discharged through the rope as a touch attack or something?

RS

[Kasz]

For the Harpoon, it's worth mentioning anything that increases damage, also increases the DC of the reflex save to impale. So flaming is both 1d6 extra damage on the way in and way out, as well as +1d6 to the reflex DC. (I play an artificer with a harpoon, so temporary Bane is a popular target for personal weapon aug.)

Other possible enchantments include Fleshgrinding if you can get past the melee only part.

I had some thoughts on Exit Wound.

Returning via the weapon crystal is probably the cheapest option (4,000g that doesn't count toward the weapon's max bonus) and also grants quickdraw & the ability to call the weapon to hand from 30ft away.

Also, any oil's will add to the damage, will also add to the DC and damages. Quickspark capsules come to mind.

Splitting, as it's a ranged weapon... two harpoons mean you can leave one in for the debuff, and pull one out for a total of triple damage. Quadruple if you just want pure damage.

[NunoM]

Splitting, as it's a ranged weapon... two harpoons mean you can leave one in for the debuff, and pull one out for a total of triple damage. Quadruple if you just want pure damage.

AFB at the moment, but isn't "Splitting" applied only to projectile weapons or projectiles?
I had a small rant about it with a friend of mine, for a character i was thinking about, wielding a couple of throwing axes. Splitting came to mind, but i dismissed it...

[Kasz]

I stand corrected.

SPLITTING
Any missile fired from a splitting weapon, or an arrow or bolt enchanted with the splitting ability, breaks into two identical missiles before striking the intended target.
Description: V-shaped engravings adorn a splitting weapon or splitting ammunition.
Activation: The splitting ability of a ranged weapon (must
be a bow, crossbow, arrow, or bolt) only functions if its wielder
has the Precise Shot feat.
Effect: Any arrow or bolt fi red from a splitting weapon magically splits into two missiles in mid-fl ight. Both missiles are identical, sharing the nonsplitting properties of the original missile; for example, a +1 splitting arrow splits into two +1 arrows in mid-fl ight. Both missiles strike the same target. Make a separate
attack roll for each missile using the same attack bonus.
Aura/Caster Level: Moderate conjuration (creation); CL 7th.
Construction: Craft Magic Arms and Armor, Precise Shot, arrowsplit, +9,000 gp, +720 XP, +18 days.
Weight: —.
Price: +3 bonus.

Although, you could put it on an Icechucker

[Captnq]

For the Harpoon, it's worth mentioning anything that increases damage, also increases the DC of the reflex save to impale. So flaming is both 1d6 extra damage on the way in and way out, as well as +1d6 to the reflex DC. (I play an artificer with a harpoon, so temporary Bane is a popular target for personal weapon aug.)

Yeah, bit of a problem with that...

See, as far as I can tell (and I have gone back and forth about this a few times) is that only damage that would add to the base damage would count. Fire/Acid/Sonic/Frost/Electrical/Evil/Force/Desiccation does extra damage, but technically doesn't add to the damage of the weapon itself.

It's a bit vague and I've tried to pin it down, but follow my logic.

I do 1d6 with a shortsword. It does 1d6 damage. I add flaming, it does 1d6 and 1d6 fire. The way flaming reads, it wouldn't take effect when you rip the harpoon out. It's not the base damage, it's extra damage.

Now, add bloodfeeding. That's untyped damage. You could do 1d6+20 and 1d6 fire. Untyped adds to the base damage, where as typed damage is rolled seperately and is applied against resistances seperately. So when it comes to the Reflex saving throw (DC 10 + the damage dealt) The damage dealt is dealt seperately, so you'd be best off selecting the single greatest source of damage from the blow.

As for does it do flaming on the way out. I don't know. It says, "initial damage the harpoon dealt" Well, is the extra 1d6 of fire damage part of the initial? Is the base damage the initial? Does it count all the sources of damage? from other examples, I have to say it only applies to base damage, but I'm open to any sort of proof that could explain it the other way.

[NunoM]

I'd say it applies the damage the weapon is capable of doing on it's own, although the description for pulling out the harpoon mentions "the initial damage". The "Fleshgrinding" weapon ability provides a reasonable benchmark, IMO:

FLESHGRINDING
[...]it automatically damages that creature as if you had scored a normal hit with it (including damage from the weapon’s enhancement bonus, other weapon properties, and your normal bonus from Strength, but not extra damage from feats such as Power Attack).[...]

...to this, i would probably change the STR bonus to be applied, to the one of the character pulling the harpoon out. It makes sense to me.

EDIT: Ah! I'd also exclude temporary effects that might be in place at the time of the initial hit, and expired in the meantime. Ex.: A "Greater Magic Weapon" or a "Weapon of Energy", which duration ended while the harpoon was stuck.

[Rainbowseb]

Nobody mentions power throw? This could add some nice damages to the harpoon no?

Allow me to insist but would it be possible to deliver a touch spell to a hooked creature?

RS

[Kasz]

Nobody mentions power throw? This could add some nice damages to the harpoon no?

Allow me to insist but would it be possible to deliver a touch spell to a hooked creature?

RS

What by touching the chain? I doubt it...as you'd be casting on the chain, not the creature...the chain would be the target...

Although you could probably convince the DM if you cast shocking grasp on the chain, everyone would be electrocuted. I GUESS YOU COULD SAY IT'S A CHAIN SPELL!

[Captnq]

You know what I want to do?

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- SAVAGE SPECIES (3.0)
Exotic Two-Handed Melee Weapon
Cost: 4 gp
Damage (s): 1d10
Damage (m): 2d6
Critical: x2
Range: 10 ft
Weight: 10 lb
Type: P
This all-metal versions of the shortspear is somewhat heavier and does more damage for its size than the ordinary version. It also conducts both heat and electricity, unlike the wood-hafted normal version.
Editor: In 3.5 the halfspear and short spear were changed, but the salamander half and short spear are substantially different, so it is included as written, without alteration. Technically, this should be called “spear” in 3.5. Nomenclature always suffers when you do conversion.

"It also conducts both heat and electricity"

While it doesn't explain how, I would assume that you could do a shocking grasp through this weapon.

Now I want to make a Salamander Harpoon. Yes, it's range will be in the toilet, but I DON'T CARE!!! Increase the damage on the harpoon 3 size classes? 4d6 harpoon! Load it in an Ice Chucker for another 2 size classes. 8d8 damage!

Boom goes the dynamite