Forcecage - balancing? + Checking some wiz questions (p2)

[Dwarfi]

Hi.

In one of my next games, my groups wizz will try to imprison an otherwise deadly opponent (Group Lv+3)+minions
in a force cage.

The creature is huge and fits into the barred version.

As the spell is already crazy powerful, I am looking for any way to get the boss out.
- The spell is on a scroll, so do they even have to pay the 1500 GP ? (Im not very used to scrolls)
- 2hours ... so as a Lv13 wiz ... 26 hours ? even longer if he can use metamagic on it ? Who made this thing up ? You could rest, memorize a new forcecage and keep imprisoning it, if by some chance, you didnt kill it on day1.

1) I once read that Paizo once made a reruling for that spell, allowing a ref save ?
2) They are in a very narrow area. Does the cage automatically fit into the surrounding or is it always 20x20x20ft big?
It doesnt say "up to this size" in the text. And if you want to be stingy you could say, that you cant create it unless there is enough space for it ? Because it cant cut through solid materials like walls. The text say, it produces a 20ft cube, no word about any smaller options.

By 3.5e rules the boss would at least get cover (+4AC)
+total def (+4)
+dodge vs the wiz (+1)

So he has a chance of actually resisting the wiz death spells. (usually range touch)
But there is a cleric with blade barrier, and other aoe spells
A Lv13 druid as well who can turn into dragons...

I can make it hard, but I dont really see a way for the boss to survive this.

The boss is a very powerful melee type and cant cast, nor teleport. If he gets a hold of you, you are pretty much dead.
So he can grapple one of the group in a surprise round, but the wiz can easily get him out of the forcecage. (Teleport switch +10ft teleport as imm. action)
He has stuff like spring attack, but that wont save him from beeing caught either.
A sonic burst and sunder is his only other option. The burst can destroy crytall stuff and glass easily, but thats it.
The group already planned a Res sonic spell for this.

He can only try to dodge as much of the spells and hope to survive the aoe stuff.
And wait for his minions to finnish them off (they arent weak either)

In all honesty, I think with this they will be able to beat a EC that is 5 Lvs above their own. Unless they get really unlucky at the start.

[ketaro]

Your beatstick needs a mage buddy.

As for Forcecage, I think it makes sense for the spell not to work if the version used can not fit within the space its being cast at. *shrugs*

[Kasz]

It's a 7th level spell that costs 1,500 gold per casting that can be overcome with an item that costs 1,400 gold, or a second level spell slot.

Anklet of Translocation, 10ft teleport. Voila, out. It's based on a 4th level spell, dimension door which one casting of would get you out. Or Teleport, Greater Teleport, Benign Transposition, Baleful Transposition (this one's great as you can put an enemy in his own cage), Abrupt Jaunt, The Teleport Reserve Feat, A Bolt Shirt, Boots of Big stepping, Dimension hop.

Also, disintegrate, which is a 6th level spell and doesn't cost anything.

So for balance sake - A 7th level spell that costs 1,500gold is not OP compared to the [minimum] 2nd level spell that costs nothing to get out of it, or one of the numerous items. Tactical Teleportation should be on everyone's list to get at least 1-3 of per day.

Also a scroll/wand of any of the above spells would also work.

You want something for your boss... anklet of translocation, add it to his loot, why would he have it? Well, for positioning into flanks, for skipping melee and getting to the squishy casters, for saving his life if he fell down a pit trap, for getting to places just slightly outside his jump check. For escaping entangles... grapples... force cages...

as for the other point:
If the spell is on a scroll then the crafter of the scroll has already paid the 1,500gp material cost and that should be evident in the scrolls price.

A scroll of Forcecage: 3,775 gold.
A scroll of a 7th level spell without components i.e. Greater Teleport: 2,275 gold.

A difference of 1,500 - the cost of the component.

Source: http://www.d20srd.org/srd/magicItems/scrolls.htm

[Dwarfi]

Unless somebody has a good reasoning why it should be otherwise, I will rule it as metioned:
You NEED the space to create the cage. You cant define the size of the cube without meta magic, it has to be 10ft or 20ft. It doesnt expand until it either reaches its 20ft or hits a wall, pillar or whatever obstacle (a big rock, that is at least 5ft high would work too)

Which basically means that my group cant fight this boss. He is just too strong.
Would be the 1st time in their game history. ^^

[Gazzien]

Expect the argument that it's made of /force/, which isn't solid, so it shouldn't matter if part of the cage is inside the walls.

That's the argument I would use as a Devil's Advocate, anyhow.

[betrayor]

Unless somebody has a good reasoning why it should be otherwise, I will rule it as metioned:
You NEED the space to create the cage. You cant define the size of the cube without meta magic, it has to be 10ft or 20ft. It doesnt expand until it either reaches its 20ft or hits a wall, pillar or whatever obstacle (a big rock, that is at least 5ft high would work too)

Which basically means that my group cant fight this boss. He is just too strong.
Would be the 1st time in their game history. ^^

No mate you can make the forcecage,it just extends into the wall or whatever obstacle is there,the creature will still be trapped,
really kazs's advice is best,your boss should have a way to get himself out of these sticky situations,like the anklet of translocation mentioned........

[Dwarfi]

If you say so...

So basically, if you used it inside a house you could accidenttially trap someone in a neighboring room ? Imagining a poor guy who sits on the potty caught in a 5ft edge of the cube because its streched through the building. ^^

[TuggyNE]

So basically, if you used it inside a house you could accidenttially trap someone in a neighboring room ? Imagining a poor guy who sits on the potty caught in a 5ft edge of the cube because its streched through the building. ^^

When he gets out he should thank the caster for not using delayed blast fireball and killing him deader than dead. 

[linklord231]

So basically, if you used it inside a house you could accidenttially trap someone in a neighboring room ? Imagining a poor guy who sits on the potty caught in a 5ft edge of the cube because its streched through the building. ^^

When he gets out he should thank the caster for not using delayed blast fireball and killing him deader than dead. 

Delayed Blast Fireball presumably wouldn't have Line of Effect to a guy accidentally caught between a Forcecage and a wall.  Forcecage is odd in that it doesn't have to follow the usual rules for line of effect because it isn't a burst, cone, cylinder, emanation, line, or spread, but still has an area.  But DBF is still a spread, so it follows the normal rules for spreads, meaning it will get blocked by walls. 

[Dwarfi]

They didnt even need it. (the forcecage)
They went with an anti life sphere and specialised spells to counter the attacks and deal specialised damage.

So my Lv13 group or to be more specific the mage, killed singlehandedly an EC18+ with only 1 dead PC.
Tha mage did ~750 dmg, on 2nd place our barbarian and cleric with both ~80.

I am astonnished, amazed and deeply shocked.

Maybe my other EC18 fight around 3 mature adult blue dragons has a better chance. ^^

[TuggyNE]

So basically, if you used it inside a house you could accidenttially trap someone in a neighboring room ? Imagining a poor guy who sits on the potty caught in a 5ft edge of the cube because its streched through the building. ^^

When he gets out he should thank the caster for not using delayed blast fireball and killing him deader than dead. 

Delayed Blast Fireball presumably wouldn't have Line of Effect to a guy accidentally caught between a Forcecage and a wall.  Forcecage is odd in that it doesn't have to follow the usual rules for line of effect because it isn't a burst, cone, cylinder, emanation, line, or spread, but still has an area.  But DBF is still a spread, so it follows the normal rules for spreads, meaning it will get blocked by walls.

Sure, but like fireball, it will burn through intervening barriers if it does enough damage. Which, considering it's a high-level spell, it will.

[Dwarfi]

Actually, I just checked one of the used damage spells and there seems to be a BIG dmg error.

Melfs acid arrow. LV13 Wiz.
Max.+Emp.

2d4/R for 5 rounds (1R for every 3 LV)

2d4 max =8
Empow. =12/R
For 5 Rounds = 60
Two arros hit the boss makes 120.

I didnt know the spell so I believed my wiz when he told me the dmg: which was around 360 for both arrows together.
And I just cant see a way how you could reach that dmg with a Lv2 spell.

So either I am badly mistaken on something here or the boss escaped and is hiding in his cave, waiting for our 2 blade barriers to run off.

[betrayor]

Actually, I just checked one of the used damage spells and there seems to be a BIG dmg error.

Melfs acid arrow. LV13 Wiz.
Max.+Emp.

2d4/R for 5 rounds (1R for every 3 LV)

2d4 max =8
Empow. =12/R
For 5 Rounds = 60
Two arros hit the boss makes 120.

I didnt know the spell so I believed my wiz when he told me the dmg: which was around 360 for both arrows together.
And I just cant see a way how you could reach that dmg with a Lv2 spell.

So either I am badly mistaken on something here or the boss escaped and is hiding in his cave, waiting for our 2 blade barriers to run off.

Yeah if he only used empower  and maximize there is no way he did 360 damage,even your 120 damage figure is too much.......
Your player cheated either by mistake or on purpsose......

[Dwarfi]

Then what is the correct number. ?
And where did I calculate wrong ? I dont find anything that this would be wrong.
By Raw you could rule it that it doesnt stack, but we played it legit since we started, so it would be strange to do it now.

The spell is Max and empowered.

[Captnq]

Actually, I just checked one of the used damage spells and there seems to be a BIG dmg error.
I didnt know the spell so I believed my wiz when he told me the dmg: which was around 360 for both arrows together.
And I just cant see a way how you could reach that dmg with a Lv2 spell.

So either I am badly mistaken on something here or the boss escaped and is hiding in his cave, waiting for our 2 blade barriers to run off.

HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!!! You got Snow Job!

Here...

(click to show/hide)

- PLAYER’S HANDBOOK (3.0)
- PLAYER’S HANDBOOK 1 (3.5)
Conjuration (Creation) [Acid]
Level: Duskblade 2, Slime Domain 2, Sorcerer/Wizard 2, Warmage 2
Components: V, S, M, F
Casting Time: 1 standard action
Range: Long (400 ft. + 40 ft./level)
Effect: One arrow of acid
Duration: 1 round + 1 round per three levels
Saving Throw: None
Spell Resistance: No
A magical arrow of acid springs from your hand and speeds to its target. You must succeed on a ranged touch attack to hit your target. The arrow deals 2d4 points of acid damage with no splash damage. For every three caster levels (to a maximum of 18th), the acid, unless somehow neutralized, lasts for another round, dealing another 2d4 points of damage in that round.
Material Component: Powdered rhubarb leaf and an adder’s stomach.
Focus: A dart.
Alternate Material Componate: Four masterwork darts [Empowered] (1,200 gp)
Editor (Blaster): DoT SUCKS. I do not like this spell, no it doesn’t give a save or SR, but it is a single threat blast that does unimpressive damage extended out over rounds. Even a 5 acid resistance makes this spell completely worthless.

Okay, so, your BBEG didn't have any energy resistance, eh? Poor planning on his part, I'll say. But lets do the math.

Melfs acid arrow. LV13 Wiz.
Max.+Emp.

Okay, so he's casting a 7th level spell. It does 12 a round acid damage for 5 rounds.

Acid is a form of energy damage, and most spells with this descriptor deal acid damage. As you'd expect, acid immunity makes the spell's recipient immune to acid damage from the spell. Acid resistance reduces acid damage from the spell. Hardness applies to acid attacks. Acid attacks deal normal damage both to creatures and to objects, and thus deal normal damage to an animated object (less the effect of the hardness).

See the bold part? It applies to damage reduction because it's normal damage. Acid and sonic damage are both nerfed. Cold, Fire, and Electrical aren't "normal" damage, thus they bypass damage reduction, but acid? Well, if your BBEG didn't have at least 5/good DR, then why is he so big and bad?

Combine that with a simple 5 energy resistance to acid which anyone can pick up for a pittance. Said 7th level spell should have fizzled. MAYBE 2 pts a round for 5 rounds. 12,500 gp gets you Energy resistance to everything at 5. I think 5/Good DR goes standard for the BBEG template. Poor planning on BBEG's plan indeed.

Now, let's look at the part where you say he did 360 points of damage. HOW? 60 points max a spell. that's 5 melfs acid arrows he has to be hit with. At one a round that's: 12, 24, 36, 48, 60, 48, 36, 24, 12. Should be more then enough time for him to heal himself or something. Side Note: You know each spell would be applied against his defenses seperately, Right?

But lets look at "unless somehow neutralized" part of the spell. Guess what neutralizes acid? A simple 0-level spell called create water. Sploosh. This BBEG doesn't have some low level cleric to his BBE God who can cast a cantrip? We're talking 4th level acolyte here. A nobody. How about he just bashes the roof of the cave and showers himself with dirt, taking a full round to rub it off? How about he strips naked, showing off his huge BBE Wang in the process. Huge BBE wangs worked in "This Is The End", it can work for you.

The trick to a good BBEG is to make the fight epic. You do this with a smattering of defenses to stop cheap shots, yet allow huge power wallops to get through. Nobody likes a climatic fight scene where the BBEG dies from what amounts to green, sizzling, paper cuts.

[Dwarfi]

Some details on the boss:

He has DR20/ adamant
And res 20 to everything but acid.
imune to elec and sonic.

Our group fought him once anc got smashed. They barely escaped. They returned around a day later.
Sadly this beast lives in a very desolate place, to there is absolutely no spellcaster at hand for him. But the dirt trick could work. And not really a way to call somebody to aid him.

So in 3.5e Acid and sonic are reduced by DR/Hardness ? Isnt that meant against objects and not creatures ?

If I got this right now, then from the 12 acid/normal dmg a round nothing remains ?
Is this written in the rulebook or is this an errata from wizz ? As we usually cant check on online stuff its hard to implement this rule now.

How about a sonic arrow ? Would that be dealt equally if the target creature has DR ?

[spacemonkey555]

Damage Reduction

A creature with this special quality ignores damage from most weapons and natural attacks. Wounds heal immediately, or the weapon bounces off harmlessly (in either case, the opponent knows the attack was ineffective). The creature takes normal damage from energy attacks (even nonmagical ones), spells, spell-like abilities, and supernatural abilities.

If your dr is ineffective (as it is with both spells and acid attacks) then you take "normal damage" meaning unmodified by dr. Normal means you take what the attack delivers without your reduction, it isn't a special attack classification that allows dr to be effective.

Max Emp Acid Arrow shoots 1 arrow that does 8+1d4 when it hits, and 8+1d4 for the next 4 rounds at level 13.
2 such spells would do 80+10d4 total. He probably thinks it did 120x3 because hes maximizing the empowered damage, which isn't how those metamagics work when used together, and mixing up 2 level 2 blasting spells.

Maximize Spell [Metamagic]
All variable, numeric effects of a spell modified by this feat are maximized. Saving throws and opposed rolls are not affected, nor are spells without random variables. A maximized spell uses up a spell slot three levels higher than the spell’s actual level.

An empowered, maximized spell gains the separate benefits of each feat: the maximum result plus one-half the normally rolled result.

Your player probably got scorching ray and acid arrow confused as well, scorching ray gives 3 shots per spell, acid arrow only gives 1. The 2 mistakes together would give 360 damage per spell, about 3.6x what he should have gotten. Only you can decide if it was an honest mistake.

[Dwarfi]

I think he confused the 2d4 dmg part somehow with the "per 3 CL".
And thought it would scale up like a fireball does, you know 1d6/CL.
Maybe Im naive but I always try to think the best of my pals.

About the scorching ray/acid arrow. Nope, he simply memorized it 2 times as max and emp. (both)
The 2nd only hit him one round later.

But considering that the boss can simply do a barrel role in the dirt and get rid of it... sure sucks.
I will discuss this with my group, as we have to either redo the battle or they simply loose a shit load of EXP.

[linklord231]

I don't know where Captnq learned chemistry, but neither water nor dirt neutralizes acid.  And that's even assuming that real-world physics applies in this case; which we really have no reason to believe.  It is quite likely that they gave us an option (neutralize the acid), but didn't give us any means to actually do that. 

Are there any rules anywhere for acid-base interaction in d&d?

[Raineh Daze]

I don't know where Captnq learned chemistry, but neither water nor dirt neutralizes acid.  And that's even assuming that real-world physics applies in this case; which we really have no reason to believe.  It is quite likely that they gave us an option (neutralize the acid), but didn't give us any means to actually do that. 

Are there any rules anywhere for acid-base interaction in d&d?

Dirt might help if you live where I do. Chalk everywhere.