Forcecage - balancing? + Checking some wiz questions (p2)

[Captnq]

1. So in 3.5e Acid and sonic are reduced by DR/Hardness ?
2. Isnt that meant against objects and not creatures ?
3. If I got this right now, then from the 12 acid/normal dmg a round nothing remains ?
4. Is this written in the rulebook or is this an errata from wizz ?
5. How about a sonic arrow?
6. Would that be dealt equally if the target creature has DR ?

Before I answer, I would direct you to my handbook The Spellbook Everyone looks at the spells, but the rules section is actually the most complete collection of printed rules availible using every rule about spells from every published book that WotC put out. In my opinion, the rules section is actually far more useful then the spell section.

1. Whoops! I stand corrected. I did a file search of every PDF I have for "Damage Reduction" and finally found where in the FAQ, it states specifically, “Any damage dealt by a spell or other magical effect is unaffected by damage reduction.” I will have to update my rules section.

2. As written in the PHB, it states "creatures" under acid and sonic, but not under the other three. The FAQ clarifies that this is a semantics error.

3. Incorrect, but that's my error.

4. The correction is in the FAQ.

5. Same as a normal version. Being a spell is what ignores DR, energy type is actually irrelevant.

6. Actually, the damage would ignore DR if it was from any spell. I have an issue with that, feeling that it contradicts the nature of instant conjurations, but that's for another discussion.

[Captnq]

Max Emp Acid Arrow shoots 1 arrow that does 8+1d4 when it hits, and 8+1d4 for the next 4 rounds at level 13.
2 such spells would do 80+10d4 total. He probably thinks it did 120x3 because hes maximizing the empowered damage, which isn't how those metamagics work when used together, and mixing up 2 level 2 blasting spells.

Er, no.

An empowered magic missile deals x1.5 times its normal damage (roll 1d4+1 and multiply the result by 1 1/2 for each missile).

You calculate the damage, THEN you multiply. As for how maximize and empower interact, that is a specific exception that was established in the PHB. You calculate max damage, then you multiply by 1.5. By the wording of the feats, that shouldn't happen. It's either empower OR maximize. They have specific rules that basically state, "In this situation, it works like this."

Your player probably got scorching ray and acid arrow confused as well, scorching ray gives 3 shots per spell, acid arrow only gives 1. The 2 mistakes together would give 360 damage per spell, about 3.6x what he should have gotten. Only you can decide if it was an honest mistake.

As good an explination as any.

I don't know where Captnq learned chemistry, but neither water nor dirt neutralizes acid.  And that's even assuming that real-world physics applies in this case; which we really have no reason to believe.  It is quite likely that they gave us an option (neutralize the acid), but didn't give us any means to actually do that. 

Are there any rules anywhere for acid-base interaction in d&d?

I learned it from having acid thrown on me. I ran to the eye wash station where the acid was washed away by water being jetted out. Ever inhale acid that's gone air born? Your lungs stop working. You reflexively force all the air out and your lungs REFUSE to take in any air. It's sort of weird, standing there, in control of the rest of your body, but unable to get your diaphragm to relax, trying desperately to get air to go back into your lungs.

So let me assure you, massive amounts of water diluted the acid. When you add water you make the over all acidity go down because acidity is a matter of concentration. If you are reducing acidity, that's called, neutralizing.

You can also add salt. Salt, which I might add, is a common factor in rock. By the way, I'm not talking about table salt, but Ionic Salts that form from an acid and a base. Ionic salts of any form introduced to Acid or Base materials in a solution tend to screw up the reaction and weaken the over all exchange of Hydrogen ions and Hydroxide ions. Most of your antacids that people take for heartburn are a variation on this. You don't swallow Base materials to neutralize the acid, that would cause damage to your throat as you swallow. You swallow instead Ionic Salts.

Most people don't know that the acid itself isn't dangerious. It's the interaction with water that allows the build up of excessive Hydrogen ions. Sodium is actually harmless, until it comes in contact with water... like water vapor. Then it bursts into flames as it causes the H2O to break down into NaOH and H+ that evaporates into the air. The resulting exothermic reaction produces enough heat to cause the hydrogen to burst into flames.

IMPORTANT SAFETY TIP: If you ever find yourself cleaning out Your highschool's old chemical locker and you are told to throw out everything and find a bottle of brownish fluid and a block of sodium that weighs 5 pounds. Do not go to your local open sewer, put it on a raft, push in into the open water, then throw rocks at it.

EXPLOSIONS ARE BAD!
MAKING WATER BURN IS BAD!
SETTING A SEWER ON FIRE IS BAD!


Although watching blue-white flames shooting everywhere is kinda cool.

IN SHORT:

1. Dilute the acid with water (Best Choice)
2. Mix ionic salts in with the acid.
3. Take fluid absorbing material (dust, dirt, and/or chalk) and rub it over the acid, thus giving the acid something else to interact with besides your skin, and hopefully making it easier to scrape the acidic substance off.

Of the above choices, 2 gallons of water going SPLOOSH from a create water cantrip cast by a 1st level cleric seems the most effective choice.

[Kasz]

I don't know where Captnq learned chemistry, but neither water nor dirt neutralizes acid.  And that's even assuming that real-world physics applies in this case; which we really have no reason to believe.  It is quite likely that they gave us an option (neutralize the acid), but didn't give us any means to actually do that. 

Are there any rules anywhere for acid-base interaction in d&d?

You're assuming real world physics in a world where "flesh to stone" followed by "stone to flesh" results in a healthy person, whereas in the real world I'd imagine you're more likely to end up with a corpse, as I doubt the electrical signals in the brain would persist whilst the brain was solid stone.

Assuming that water washes away, or at least waters down the acid is reasonable as other spells can be removed in this way, and it's a creative effort on the part of the PCs.

I mean if you really want to enforce real world physics you'll end up with high int characters stocking up on lye (ash, rocks and rainwater are hardly difficult to obtain) and then throwing it at Oozes and demanding you give them their insta-win. Either that or "inventing" gunpowder.

[linklord231]

Dilution does not equal neutralization.  It might produce the same effect, but the two are absolutely distinct. 

neutralize:
To cause an acidic solution to become neutral by adding a base to it or to cause a basic solution to become neutral by adding an acid to it. Salt and water are usually formed in the process.

I concede that dirt might work to neutralize it, but only in certain conditions.  Soil from regions with little rainfall or plant life tend towards high pH, but only mildly - it would take a lot of dirt to neutralize an Acid Arrow, especially since you only have 30 seconds to do it in.  And that really only has a chance in desert regions; in areas of high rainfall soil tends to be acidic and in normal areas the soil is neutral.  Point is, there's far from any guarantee that this trick works even assuming that acid-base neutralization works the way it does in the real world.

You're assuming real world physics in a world where "flesh to stone" followed by "stone to flesh" results in a healthy person, whereas in the real world I'd imagine you're more likely to end up with a corpse, as I doubt the electrical signals in the brain would persist whilst the brain was solid stone.

Assuming that water washes away, or at least waters down the acid is reasonable as other spells can be removed in this way, and it's a creative effort on the part of the PCs.

I mean if you really want to enforce real world physics you'll end up with high int characters stocking up on lye (ash, rocks and rainwater are hardly difficult to obtain) and then throwing it at Oozes and demanding you give them their insta-win. Either that or "inventing" gunpowder.

I'm doing literally the opposite.  I pointed out that we have no reason to expect it works the same way as in the real world, and then asked for any official text that would support the idea that acids even can be neutralized in d&d. 

[spacemonkey555]

Er, no.
You calculate the damage, THEN you multiply. As for how maximize and empower interact, that is a specific exception that was established in the PHB. You calculate max damage, then you multiply by 1.5. By the wording of the feats, that shouldn't happen. It's either empower OR maximize. They have specific rules that basically state, "In this situation, it works like this."

Ya, and I quoted the rule. I didn't calculate maximize then multiply by 1.5, that would be a flat 12. Not gonna argue with you on the merits of 1d4 vs 2d4/2 rounded down if that's what you're getting at, I know they're different but I don't care, I'm not ocd.

[Dwarfi]

So to sum it up:

The damage he did was totally wrong. Figured that out already ^^
But the boss couldnt get rid of the remaining damage unless he could jump into a river or something. (There is none)

+ Max and emp is a tricky ruling. By RAW you could say it doesnt work, as you dont role dice. On the other hand it wouldnt be much of a problem to simply calculate it like you just did.
We played it like this ever since, so I am not certain in changing it now. What do you think ?

My Wiz is an Incantatrix, so he can Meta a lot of shit anyway.
And he loves to 1 shot enemys with max/emp stuff or just disintegrates. He really is the powerhorse of the group. Our Barbarian can do a lot of damage too, but he is still melee and attackable.
---

I dont want my group to get stuck on this and want to push it to go on.
The Boss remais dead, but they loose at least half the EP and they still have to revive  the druid. In a friendly country they can maybe do it for 20k.

If they insist I would rewind the battle to the specific point. But then they would either have to escape without the loot and a dead druid. OR they stay, wait until the 2 blade barriers run off and the boss charges back with more then half his HP left and 2 minions with him.
In that case it is almost certain that at least 1 other player dies.

So my solution would feel bad, yes, but its still a good way out of otherwise worse endings.

[Raineh Daze]

Or have the boss be not quite dead and with a grudge?

[Kasz]

I'm doing literally the opposite.  I pointed out that we have no reason to expect it works the same way as in the real world, and then asked for any official text that would support the idea that acids even can be neutralized in d&d.

Well it definitely can be neutralized. Judging by Acid Arrow

A magical arrow of acid springs from your hand and speeds to its target. You must succeed on a ranged touch attack to hit your target. The arrow deals 2d4 points of acid damage with no splash damage. For every three caster levels (to a maximum of 18th), the acid, unless somehow neutralized, lasts for another round, dealing another 2d4 points of damage in that round.

It just doesn't say how, maybe it means energy resistance etc... but then why say neutralise when "resist" would suffice? Also, could a normal alkali neutralise a magic acid?

Assuming the water pushes all the acid off the victim to a puddle on the floor isn't a terrible way to rule it or maybe just lowering the ongoing damage to 1, as some acid remains in contact with the skin. I only say this because I see no RAW way to neutralise acid in D&D and Profession (Chemist)/Craft(Chemicals)/Knowledge(Chemistry) don't really have rules for D&D

[TuggyNE]

It just doesn't say how, maybe it means energy resistance etc... but then why say neutralise when "resist" would suffice? Also, could a normal alkali neutralise a magic acid?

The simplest answer to the RAW question is to assume that "somehow neutralized" chiefly refers to dispelling. Which would work quite handily.

I am still curious how the caster thought they got so much damage; I know it's possible, but not with the listed metamagic alone. Maybe there's a missing Twin Spell or something?

[Captnq]

Dungeonscape
Acid Neutralizer - 50 gp

Wear it around your neck, stops continuous damage from acid. Only the first round affects you.

[linklord231]

Nice find 
So yeah, if the bad guy happened to be wearing one of those, he'd only take the initial 12ish damage per casting, not the full ongoing damage.  It only works for one minute though, so he'd still take ongoing damage if it lasted more than 10 rounds. 

[Dwarfi]

While I am checking on some stuff I never really read, especially about my Wizz:

Incantatrix: Magic of Faerun p31

I dont know which level of Inc. he is right now, but he is Lv13 in total.

So he  gets:
Send away = A dispell bonus
Bonus Metamagic feat = no question
See/strike ethereal = no question
Hardy spirit = Imune to death and Ab. drain

Instant metamagic 1 or 2 times/day :
Now this is a little unclear to me.
Its a free Metamagic use without any penalty 1 or 2 times a day, corret ?
So he could choose his highest available spell and simply make it maximized by will ?

Impr. Metamagic = -1 on every metamagic penalty... neat !

Now our wiz is always extending his own spells at the beginning of the day and does the same on the clerics (or any other spell he desires by doing a spellcraft check.
Is this something related to metamagic in general ? Is this a legal thing to do ? I never read about this anywhere.
Or is this another thing our group made up between "I Know" and "I think".

Example: Our cleric uses some kind of buff on the group and askes my wiz to extend it for a longer duration or empower if its a heal.... Is that possible ?

What other limitations for metamagic are there that I should know ?

[linklord231]

There are 2 versions of Incantatrix - one in Magic of Faerun, and one in Player's Guide to Faerun.  It looks like your player is taking the benefits of both versions simultaneously.

Only the MoF version gets Send Away, See Ethereal, Strike Ethereal, and Hardy Spirit.  If he's 13th level, he could be Wiz 5/(MoF) Incantatrix 8, in which case he would also have Instant Metamagic 1/day and Improved Metamagic.

The abilities that you aren't sure are legal are from the other Incantatrix class, in Player's Guide to Faerun. 
Cooperative Metamagic lets you apply one of your metamagic feats to a spell that someone else is casting, with a successful spellcraft check.  It only works 3+Int mod times per day, and you have to be standing next to the person casting the spell, and you have to ready an action to do this.
Metamagic Effect lets you apply a metamagic feat you know to a spell that's already in effect with a successful spellcraft check.  It also only works 3+Int mod times per day.

Ask the player which version of Incantatrix he's using, and make sure he's not taking the abilities from both.  If he wants to use the PGtF version, he can't keep the abilities from the MoF version, but he would gain a few abilities that you haven't mentioned yet, such as being able to apply metamagic to spells cast from wands and take control of spells that other people cast. 

The PGtF version is technically the "correct" one, since it's the most recent printing, but the MoF one is significantly less powerful. 

[Dwarfi]

Ah that would explain the multi meta stuff.
SO I am pretty sure he is using that version. Gotta somehow check up on that too.
I dont wanna say he cheated, but he surely made a couple of big "mistakes" lately, so I gotta check on his PC.

Found it... man, now my wiz really has a problem.
Req. is SPellcraft 8 ranks. So he can reach 8 ranks by Lv5 and Lv6 as his first PrC level.
So with Lv13 now he is an Inc. of Lv8. But he already uses the -1 meta mode as if he was Lv10.

And even if he has +5 or +6 Int there is just no way for him to cast a max. emp. fireball (Lv8 spell slot)
...  Please tell me I am mistaken somewher !

Wiz Lv13 can cast 1Lv7 sepll
He would need an int score of +8 to cast Lv8 spells... (doesnt have that much)
Did I misscalculate the meta magic cost maybe ?

Fireball Lv3
+3 Lv (max)
+2 Lv emp
... Unless there are some non stacking rules for reduced cost it should be plain impossible to do what he does .

[Gazzien]

Ah that would explain the multi meta stuff.
SO I am pretty sure he is using that version. Gotta somehow check up on that too.
I dont wanna say he cheated, but he surely made a couple of big "mistakes" lately, so I gotta check on his PC.

Found it... man, now my wiz really has a problem.
Req. is SPellcraft 8 ranks. So he can reach 8 ranks by Lv5 and Lv6 as his first PrC level.
So with Lv13 now he is an Inc. of Lv8. But he already uses the -1 meta mode as if he was Lv10.

And even if he has +5 or +6 Int there is just no way for him to cast a max. emp. fireball (Lv8 spell slot)
...  Please tell me I am mistaken somewher !

Wiz Lv13 can cast 1Lv7 sepll
He would need an int score of +8 to cast Lv8 spells... (doesnt have that much)
Did I misscalculate the meta magic cost maybe ?

Fireball Lv3
+3 Lv (max)
+2 Lv emp
... Unless there are some non stacking rules for reduced cost it should be plain impossible to do what he does .

Not sure, but I'm fairly sure there are a couple other metamagic reducers out there, and there are some optional, expensive material components you can throw on to empower a [Fire] spell, IIRC...? But I don't know, and my memory's shoddy lately.

[Dwarfi]

I dont remember him buying an item for reduction, I am pretty sure on that part. At best he has a feat.
But I didnt find as many freats for reducing meta magic costs.

And those who do work only on specified spells or are otherwise limited.
Ther was one where you cast a spell with metamagic and then can reuse the same metamagic for free on a spell of the same base level without paying the price. But that wouldnt allow him to do what he does.

Pract. Metamagic ? No dragon subtype
psionic trick ? Nope
arcane thesis ? ... Only for 1 spell. I dont think he did that, but it WOULD be possible. I dont remember him picking that feat though.
Metamagic School Focus .... well... maybe. I dont remember it either though.

He must have one of those last 2 feats or its plain impossible.

[betrayor]

Dwarfi everything your wizard did can be possible with the right optimized build by that level(13th) but you have to find out if your wizard is really using the correct build and not just "handwaving" it,I would ask to take a look on his character sheet......

[Dwarfi]

Yes it CAN. Now it really depends of what feats he has.
I will definately check on it as soon as I can.

[Gazzien]

If dragon Mag is open, he might also have Easy Metamagic.

[Dwarfi]

I highly expect him to have prac. metamagic. (No Dragon Magazin though)
Though it would basically be legal, I strongly dislike this. Its a feat that allows you to get the bonus of a 10th LV Incant without taking the class...

Our Wiz is the only one in the group who min/max his champ. Resulting in a PC that is easily 2 LVs stronger then the rest of the group.
It doesnt end there. He can max, emp. for damage like an 8th LV spell, while only beeing LV13.
Plus he pickes that broken Acf, where you swap your pet for the ability to teleport 10ft at will. Which makes you basically imune to any melee attack, unless they have 15ft range.
+All the different spells, Orb of..., heart of....

He is crit imune, sneak att imune, cant drown....and basically wins every ini because if that Immediat spell where you boost your ini.

He is just so much more powerful then the rest of the group that I am concerned.
Our barbarian is more or less the 2nd strongest player, but he can easily be dealth with and is perfectly balanced. He told me too that he thinks that something isnt right and that I should check and talk on the WIz player.