Forcecage - balancing? + Checking some wiz questions (p2)

[Kasz]

Sounds like he's an Incantrix with abrupt jaunt.

To Clarify, Abrupt Jaunt is INT mod times a day, so probably like 7 times a day in your wizard's case. It's an immediate action, so it can be out of turn HOWEVER it uses up your swift action for next turn, so he cannot dodge 2 attacks with it a round. It's also only 10ft, so reach can help, or AoE spells.

For example, a fireball centred on him will still hit him no matter where he teleports.
A Large Creature with a Spiked Chain will miss the first attack, but the secondary attack will still work, if this creature has mageslayer it will also prevent him casting.
An archer will miss the first arrow, but rapidshot and all that means the second, third and fourth will be on target. A splitting bow means that your wizard dodges 2/8 attacks, he still gets 6 arrows in him.

Abrupt Jaunt is AMAZING, but it's not exactly an I Win button.

8th level spells as a level 13? I mean yeah, a 7th level spell empowered would be 9th level, even if you reduce empower to a +1 so it occupies an 8th level slot, he cannot cast that... he doesn't have an 8th level slot to expend.

I suggest going through his character sheet with him, ask him what allows him to do what and where he is getting it from... if he's using out of date material and cherrypicking from 2 different classes then obviously he's going to seem too powerful.

[linklord231]

I highly expect him to have prac. metamagic. (No Dragon Magazin though)
Though it would basically be legal, I strongly dislike this. Its a feat that allows you to get the bonus of a 10th LV Incant without taking the class...

Our Wiz is the only one in the group who min/max his champ. Resulting in a PC that is easily 2 LVs stronger then the rest of the group.
It doesnt end there. He can max, emp. for damage like an 8th LV spell, while only beeing LV13.
Plus he pickes that broken Acf, where you swap your pet for the ability to teleport 10ft at will. Which makes you basically imune to any melee attack, unless they have 15ft range.
+All the different spells, Orb of..., heart of....

He is crit imune, sneak att imune, cant drown....and basically wins every ini because if that Immediat spell where you boost your ini.

He is just so much more powerful then the rest of the group that I am concerned.
Our barbarian is more or less the 2nd strongest player, but he can easily be dealth with and is perfectly balanced. He told me too that he thinks that something isnt right and that I should check and talk on the WIz player.

While powerful, all of these things are real game options and might be legal.  I say "might" because I don't know for certain what classes/feats he's taken or whether or not he expends a spell slot every time he casts one, but it's possible that everything is in order by the rules. 

Keep in mind that Practical Metamagic only works for spontaneous spellcasters, and Easy Metamagic only is applied to one type of metamagic.  The Incantatrix 10 ability applies to all of them, and stacks. 

Also remember that Cooperative Metamagic and Metamagic Effect both allow you to apply metamagic feats without increasing the spell slot.  He couldn't use these on a Fireball he cast himself, but he could use Cooperative Metamagic to Maximize the Cleric's Flame Strike or use Metamagic Effect to Extend a buff spell that he already cast.  They wouldn't work in the exact situation you described, but they would allow him to cast certain metamagic spells that he normally wouldn't be able to.

[Dwarfi]

Sorry, I didnt mean pract. meta. That would indeed be impossible.

I meant the Meta magic focus feat from PHB2/complete mage.
It works only for 1 school in which you have spell focus already. In his case it has to be evocation - He loves his fireballs and rays.
Otherwise he wouldnt be able to cast a max, emp fireball like he already did.

So there would still be a problem with the Max/emp. acid arrows.
Those would become a LV7 spell, of which he can only cast 1/day.
So where did the other one come from ?
Man, he really did a lot of strange stuff there and it really comes back too me now that I never really checked up on him. I m still a rather inexperienced DM.

Although basically legal I am concerned that it may be too strong compared to the rest of the group. Who are not min/maxing like him.
We only have a rather weak rogue/ranger build
A pure barbarian 13
A druid (who is really new to the game and doesnt know what he is doing) - has dragon shape shifting
A cleric - a little optimized with ord. champion, Inquisitor and a 3rd Prc for a lot of Save boosts.

[linklord231]

Let's assume, for the moment, that he has Metamagic School Focus (Evocation), and is using the MoF version of Incantatrix so he has Improved Metamagic at lvl 8.

In that case, he could use MMSF to bring the cost of Maximize down to +2, then Improved Metamagic to bring both Max and Empower down by 1 each for a total of +2.  He'd be firing off Maximized Empowered Acid Arrows out of 4th level slots instead of 7ths.

Alernatively, he could have bought a Lesser Metamagic Rod of either Maximize or Empower, which makes one of those metamagics cost nothing 3/day. 

He may not even need to do this - by my count, he ought to have at least 3 7th level spells per day, maybe 4.  1 base + 1 from high Int (only needs a 24) + 1 from specializing. 

Realistically, the barbarian should be doing waaay more damage than the wizard.  You might consider letting the barbarian's player swap feats around to get Power Attack, Leap Attack, and Shock Trooper (and it's prerequisites).  Then drop a Valorous (Unapproachable East) weapon in the next loot stash.  His damage will absolutely skyrocket, and he won't be limited by spells/day like the wizard.  The cleric and druid (especially the druid, if he has Draconic Wild Shape) should have no problem keeping up.  If they still feel out-performed, point them towards the handbooks.

[OutlawPhilosopher]

Nota Bene: Acid Arrow is not an Evocation.

[Dwarfi]

Sadly our wiz wasnt there yesterday. So I am still waiting to check on him.

So many things that come together:
The jaunt Acf: you have to be a conjurer specialist !

Forbidden schools: I am rather sure it was necromancy and Transmutation.

Another thing somebody reminded me of:
He has at least 3 Levels or Guard of silverymoon (he used the 3rd level ability already so that he doesnt hit his allys with a fireball)
For that PRC you need again 8 ranks in a skill (conc) and 4th level spells. With an int of +5 at start  he should be able to get his 1st level of that class on Lv6... correct ?
Not sure on the 4th Level spell, by base a Wiz learns a 4th level spell on Lv7... can you get one earlier with enough int ?

So this is getting more and more confusing.

1- conjurer for the jaunt ACF
3 Levels of Guard of silverymoon
So he cant be more then a Lv5 Incantatrix by now... no inst. metamagic

Spellguard of silverymoon Lv 3 has:
Obligation, token, ward attunement
 Metamagic feat
3rd Selective spell

Lv5 Inc has:
Bonus metamagic feat, focused study, Cooperative metamagic
 Metamagic effect
 Bonus metamagic feat
5thLv  Metamagic spell trigger

how in the world does this fit together ?
On Lv 13 he would have 6 feats. +1bonus feat from 5th Lv wizard. And the other meta feats from the classes.

Lets say he has Iron will (Incantatrix) Spell focus Evoc and meta focus evocation.
He would be able to reduce the cost for a max/emp fireball by 1.
So it would be possible by now to cast them as Lv7 spells.

Meta feats: I know that he can Quicken, empower, maximize, extend and he can make spells permanent on himself...
If he used a regular feat for a metamagic then he could have that.
And he can create magical items too...

[Kasz]

I found his character sheet.

[Dwarfi]

Alright. I finally got some infos on his sheet.

Lv13
5 Wizard/ 3 Spellguard of Silverymoon/ 5 Incantatrix
INT 27 (+8) - so which Level of spells can he cast exactly ? Can he cast LV8 with this on Lv13 ?

Feats:
Mind over body (regional)
Iron Will
Comb. casting
Skill focus spellcraft
Meta magic focus

Bonus feats:
Extend
Empower
maximize
Craft scrolls
focus evocation

So its possible to cast the max emp stuff. I am just not sure what Lv of spells he could actually cast on Lv13 with +8 Int.

[Raineh Daze]

INT 27 (+8) - so which Level of spells can he cast exactly ? Can he cast LV8 with this on Lv13 ?

Okay, assuming I've not forgotten: you only get bonus spells when you would be able to cast the spells normally. I think.

[Nanshork]

INT 27 (+8) - so which Level of spells can he cast exactly ? Can he cast LV8 with this on Lv13 ?

Okay, assuming I've not forgotten: you only get bonus spells when you would be able to cast the spells normally. I think.

This is correct.

[Kasz]

I assume he leveled like... Wiz 5, Incantrix 5, Spellguard 3, due to the requirements. Taking Spellguard first doesn't work due to requirements but w/e

His spells per day will look like this, unless he's one of those focused specialists that gets bonus conjuration slots.... which is badass, but you've not mentioned it.

Spell level : Base + Bonus (from int) = total

0th level: 4 + 0 = 4
1st level: 4 + 2 = 6
2nd level: 4 + 2 = 6
3rd level: 4 + 2 = 6
4th level: 4 + 2 = 6
5th level: 3 + 1 = 4
6th level: 2 + 1 = 3
7th level: 1 + 1 = 2

That's his allotment every day. Assuming he's not using the specialist spell slots and he hasn't got any spell storing items or pearls of power or similar.

[linklord231]

We know that he's a Conjuration specialist because he has Abrupt Jaunt, so that means he probably has at least one more slot at each level. 

[Dwarfi]

Its ok.
I am fine with his damage as long as its all to the rules. We never expected our game to run for so long (almost 2 years now) so we never made any restrictions.
This now comes back and bites me a little, as it gets harder and harder to make fair encounters.

Is our group together then the Barb and the wiz usually kill the stuff, but if one of them is missing... oh man do they break a sweat. ^^°

There are basically only 2 changes left I will still imply:
1) The max+ emp calculation (roling for empower)
2) Orb of XY: I see them as a bit too powerful. Just a ranged touch, no SR, no SV...except against the minor side effect.
I think it should half the damage on a save.

[Lo77o]

Its ok.
I am fine with his damage as long as its all to the rules. We never expected our game to run for so long (almost 2 years now) so we never made any restrictions.
This now comes back and bites me a little, as it gets harder and harder to make fair encounters.

Is our group together then the Barb and the wiz usually kill the stuff, but if one of them is missing... oh man do they break a sweat. ^^°

There are basically only 2 changes left I will still imply:
1) The max+ emp calculation (roling for empower)
2) Orb of XY: I see them as a bit too powerful. Just a ranged touch, no SR, no SV...except against the minor side effect.
I think it should half the damage on a save.

Remember most spells you either have to make the attack roll, so you can miss, or its AoE and there is a save for half. If you change the spell so it includes both, he might just as well use something else. And in that case just tell him you dont want him to use the spell or ban it.

[linklord231]

The most common "fixes" I've seen for the Orb line (though I think most people around here don't consider them broken) were to move them to Evocation instead of Conjuration or make them SR: Yes.

[Dwarfi]

Under normal situations, yes. Then I basically accept most spells. (Except for ray of dizz, that thing ruins fights)
But the combination with his empower and max stuff makes it really powerful.

he always has the room to memorize a hand full of aoe spells like fireballs. But in most cases we fight 1 - 3 targets. Usually big monsters.
And for that a max/emp whatever orb just beats everything. The touch is stupidly easy to land unless the target has special defenses against touch..

I talked to my group and it seems a save FORT sv at least reduces the damage by 1/4 or something like that.  Not as much as on an aoe spell, but still.

Or I tell them: You want to use this ? Fine, but then expect the next casters you meet to have some of this stuff too.

[Gazzien]

Under normal situations, yes. Then I basically accept most spells. (Except for ray of dizz, that thing ruins fights)
But the combination with his empower and max stuff makes it really powerful.

he always has the room to memorize a hand full of aoe spells like fireballs. But in most cases we fight 1 - 3 targets. Usually big monsters.
And for that a max/emp whatever orb just beats everything. The touch is stupidly easy to land unless the target has special defenses against touch..

I talked to my group and it seems a save FORT sv at least reduces the damage by 1/4 or something like that.  Not as much as on an aoe spell, but still.

Or I tell them: You want to use this ? Fine, but then expect the next casters you meet to have some of this stuff too.

That right there is the easiest (in my opinion) way to curb a caster's power.

[veekie]

Under normal situations, yes. Then I basically accept most spells. (Except for ray of dizz, that thing ruins fights)
But the combination with his empower and max stuff makes it really powerful.

he always has the room to memorize a hand full of aoe spells like fireballs. But in most cases we fight 1 - 3 targets. Usually big monsters.
And for that a max/emp whatever orb just beats everything. The touch is stupidly easy to land unless the target has special defenses against touch..

I talked to my group and it seems a save FORT sv at least reduces the damage by 1/4 or something like that.  Not as much as on an aoe spell, but still.

Or I tell them: You want to use this ? Fine, but then expect the next casters you meet to have some of this stuff too.

That right there is the easiest (in my opinion) way to curb a caster's power.

Not so much, it just turns things into an arms race if they do take it up, leaving the poor spell-less guys to suffer in the crossfire.

[Gazzien]

That right there is the easiest (in my opinion) way to curb a caster's power.

Not so much, it just turns things into an arms race if they do take it up, leaving the poor spell-less guys to suffer in the crossfire.

It works well for my group... -shrug-

[Demelain]

Or I tell them: You want to use this ? Fine, but then expect the next casters you meet to have some of this stuff too.

That right there is the easiest (in my opinion) way to curb a caster's power.

Not so much, it just turns things into an arms race if they do take it up, leaving the poor spell-less guys to suffer in the crossfire.

I'm mostly going to agree with this, with the following addendum: if the DM isn't as good at optimizing as the caster he attempts to curb, it will never work. If all you do is use the caster's tricks, you're reacting and not solving anything. And the moment he understands that you're just going to mimic what he does, you cannot hope to win. If he so chooses, he can escalate it and remain one or two or ten steps ahead, ready to blow away the next challenge because he knows what's coming.

Here's an idea. It's a little unorthodox, maybe even crazy. You could talk to him and tell him that you're uncomfortable with his power, that you can't keep up (with regards to balancing an encounter for both him AND the other characters), and you'd like him to tone it down. Inter-party power disparities can be really tough on the DM.