Is this too hard?

[ksbsnowowl]

So the last challenge I placed my PC's up against wasn't a straight-out battle, but rather a high-stakes situational puzzle that they had to solve.  The first step in solving said puzzle was to realize they needed more information than they had.  Things did not end well.

Things are looking like they will be True Resurrected, but they will have lost ALL their equipment.  They will be provided with some mundane items (MW weapons and armor, a wand of cure moderate; the Wiz will be assisted in rebuilding much of his spellbook), but will otherwise be without equipment until they earn some back.  The next plot arch I have in mind will have them up against some 12th and 13th level gestalt NPC's.  NPC's have higher treasure per foe than most monsters; so after about a level of adventuring against human NPC's, they'll be almost back to the appropriate wealth by level.

However, in the commission of their spectacular failure (which was admittedly at least partly my fault), they lost the MacGuffin that they were blackmailed into retrieving in order to save a kidnapped former party member-turned-NPC.  So, they might decide to try and save their friend from the Unseelie Court via a rescue mission.  Or they might leave him to his fate.

Three of the gestalt PC's just reached 15th level, and the fourth one will reach 15th next session.  They are:

Barbarian 12/Duskblade 3//Beguiler 14/Mindbender 1
Druid 15//Sorcerer 12/Stormcaster 3 (I altered the class so it did not lose a caster level)
Rogue 14/Fighter 1//Wizard 6/(3.0) Incantatrix 3?/Iot7FV 6? (Not sure on the exact level spits)
Rogue 14//Swashbuckler/Fighter with Robilar's Gambit who TWF sneak attacks with a Keen Rapier (Imp Crit allowed to stack) and short sword.

The Unseelie Court is composed of Eladrin outsiders with the Shadow Creature template (the Seelie Court is Eladrin with the Saint template).  Certain "high royalty" of either side can imbue the Shadow Creature or Saint template upon their courtiers, and so each side has other fey with the appropriate template for their allegiance.

If they decide to try and save their friend, I will likely have them face off against some Shadow Creature fey.  The climax will be to face off against the Master of the Hunt from the MM5 (with the Shadow Creature template), perhaps with one remaining Shadow Creature Hound of the Hunt (they will face some of those prior to facing the Master of the Hunt himself).  The Master of the Hunt has a listed CR of 22, and Shadow Creature adds +1 to that, but my PC's are Gestalt, so it's still effectively CR 22.  They have fought a Shadow Creature before, but might not realize these will have such abilities.

Hounds of the Hunt are CR 18, making them Shadow Creatures effectively keeps their gestalt CR at 18.

If I send them up against such a series of foes, I would give them an ally from the Seelie Court.  Right now I'm thinking of it being a Saint Master of the Hunt with two Saint Hounds of the Hunt.  But maybe that's too much.

I could also have them go up against several lower-CR Shadow Creature fey before meeting the BBEG Master of the Hunt, and thus allow them to pick up some nice magical loot along the way.  Sadly, they lost the Artificer's Monocle they had, so identifying them won't be quick and easy as it was before.

Thoughts, suggestions, or critiques?

[bhu]

Puzzles are a bitch.  DM's always think they're easier than they are by virtue of their knowing all the info, and PC's just want to get to the fun parts, which makes them less likely to do the research they need to do to solve said puzzle.  Every time I introduced one in my rl group games stalled for weeks as they just waited and waited for me to get impatient and hand them the answer.

[Kasz]

They failed to do the legwork to solve a puzzle, they've lost all their equipment due to that. It seems fitting, it stresses the risk/reward.... they'll start to feel like the underdogs and victories they manage now will feel hard earned. Which is good.

As for the difficulty... well How much did they rely on their equipment before? There is a lot of spellcasting ability in the party... it's like having to fight in an antimagic zone as far as not having magic items is concerned...but they've still got all their spells. I mean, with solid applications of beguiler illusions, and druid/sorc spells... I think they could control and debuff the combats enough to pull through.

[ksbsnowowl]

They've always been very good at infiltrating a BBEG location and taking him out.  While on their failed MacGuffin quest, they actually did a very good job of attaining the MacGuffin from the CR 18 (so gestalt CR 17) advanced Death Slaad and his two CR 11 minion flunkies.  The Death Slaad got to act... once... before he died?  So, the rescue mission will play to their strong suits.

With the exception of the Rogue//Swashbuckler/Fighter, who is understandably somewhat reliant on his gear, the only other "needed" gear was the Druid's Wilding Clasps, so he could keep his Wisdom- and Charism-boosting items (plus other things) up and running while wildshaped.  The Barb//Beguiler also had the Daylight property on some Destana, which would be quite useful going up against Shadow Creatures.  Aside from that, they were usually quite good at making use of their spells.

I can almost guarantee you that they will waltz into the the location under the effects of Veil, unless there is a way to give some of the fey sentries True Seeing.  That's what they did when they "defeated" the slaadi dungeon on the failed MacGuffin quest, and there was no reason for it not to work.  Here the group they would be infiltrating will be smaller, so they will likely challenge anyone they don't recognize, but my players are savvy in this type of encounter, and might well find a way to counter it (like the fact that with Glibness the Beguiler has a +47 Bluff check...)

By the time they get to the CR 22 BBEG Master of the Hunt, if they have fought their way to him, they will have gained some wealth along the way.  I'll probably throw in an Artificer's Monocle (they've had one before), so they can identify their new stuff quickly.  If they just sneak all the way to the BBEG, they will miss out on the treasure, and the BBEG fight will be tougher.  It's sort of mean in that it tips their typical approach to these things on its head, but it also makes sense.  If you sneak past all the bad guys, you don't kill them and take their stuff.  Then you are higher level with no more gear.

One other thing on the spellcasting... The Rogue//Wizard will be at a severe disadvantage.  In all likelihood, he will only have had a chance to copy ~4 spells from his mind into a new spellbook.  The Hathran who resurrect them will assist him in rebuilding his spellbook as time permits, but for this mission most of his spells will have been prepared from borrowed spellbooks, and he won't have them along to change spells mid-adventure.  But he has the Acidic Splatter reserve feat, and he's quite good at going greater invisible and just sneak attacking for loads of acid damage.

[PlzBreakMyCampaign]

So the last challenge I placed my PC's up against wasn't a straight-out battle, but rather a high-stakes situational puzzle that they had to solve.

Did you explain this to your players as a possibility in the metagame?

Many players don't like DMs who force fights they can't win because "you can always run away." Same thing.

[ksbsnowowl]

So the last challenge I placed my PC's up against wasn't a straight-out battle, but rather a high-stakes situational puzzle that they had to solve.

Did you explain this to your players as a possibility in the metagame?

Many players don't like DMs who force fights they can't win because "you can always run away." Same thing.

This has been rehashed a lot here.  I've learned a lot as a DM from the experience.

[Nunkuruji]

Here's my assessment, fwiw

Detection: A base +46 hide (+range), +50 move silent then paired with Shadow, basically means they better bring (widened?) Daylight, Luminous Armor, Blindsight 90+, or similar, or they're probably screwed at detection to even land a successful listen check to glitterdust. Presumably Mindsight isn't going to cut it due to mind-affecting immunity. If they don't get past this, it's probably a lose/draw.

That's where the Hound comes in. If they then get hit by its Dimensional Anchor bite, they're probably no longer getting away (draw) to re-prepare.

Barb/Dusk: Should be able to at the very least True Strike Power Attack for damage. No problem.
Druid/Sorc: Better have True Casting and Force/Sonic or no save/sr autosuck, or enough buffed damage in Poly/WS. My own PCs sorcerer would do Fusion: TC + Wings, and then soak with Wings of Cover, though if they remain flat footed against the attack...
Rogue/Wiz: MoTH has enough Spot to probably foil Invis/Hide as a means to SA. Same casting challenge.
Rogue/Fighter: Probably going to have to rely on flanking to do any damage? Won't be able to PA/damage reliably against that AC/DR? Can he even keep up with the movement?

Fly 60 perfect or 240 phantom steed riding kiting, hard to detect with Total Freedom. The steed can give away the MotHs location, but it could also be used as a decoy to lure out the PCs.

Offensively the MoTH is going to ignore the spellcasters concealment buffs, but mirror image remains decent. So that may be rude surprise. It'll be a close check whether or not the MoTH can see through the PCs invisibility with its +45 spot check and at range.

Once revealed, the MoTH could use it's Phantom Steed Ride/Cover to block attacks, if it continues at ranged, with quite a range advantage.

However, it's just as easy to drop a Forcecage on the guy (once detected). Don't know if you're giving him a get out of jail item or such to deal with this sort caster iwin situation.

Now, if they've had a few rounds of fighting Shadow creatures previous, and KNOW they should be prepared for these types, it is their own failure to not be prepared for this situation. My PCs have had to learn the hard way about Protection from Evil diligence when they know they're fighting Vampires, etc. So, if they're vets at this point, I think its fair to put it on them.

[ksbsnowowl]

Lots of good insight, thank you.  I'm typing on a tablet, so I'll keep the responses brief.

Here's my assessment, fwiw

Detection: A base +46 hide (+range), +50 move silent then paired with Shadow, basically means they better bring (widened?) Daylight, Luminous Armor, Blindsight 90+, or similar, or they're probably screwed at detection to even land a successful listen check to glitterdust. Presumably Mindsight isn't going to cut it due to mind-affecting immunity. If they don't get past this, it's probably a lose/draw.

The spotting through the invisibility is a great point. I'd not even thought of it.  They will be bringing Daylight, and they have fought Shadow Creatures before, to great frustration.

Interesting point about the mind-affecting immunity possibly making him immune to mindsight.  I'll have to look into it more, though I don't think it works like that, as I'm pretty sure you can detect undead with it.  I'll look it up before the game tomorrow.

That's where the Hound comes in. If they then get hit by its Dimensional Anchor bite, they're probably no longer getting away (draw) to re-prepare.

The bite's effect is only for one round, and they are having an opportunity to break and prep at the start of the next session.  A good point, but I think they will be alright.  I'm mostly planning for them to face the one hound alone.  Then the Hunter alone.  A pack along with him would be too difficult.

Barb/Dusk: Should be able to at the very least True Strike Power Attack for damage. No problem.

Believe it or not, he doesn't have power attack.  He does have Arcane Strike, however, and there was a lot of hinting from their Ghaele ally that the Druid NEEDS to prepare Brilliant Aura, to give them all brilliant energy weapons.

Druid/Sorc: Better have True Casting and Force/Sonic or no save/sr autosuck, or enough buffed damage in Poly/WS. My own PCs sorcerer would do Fusion: TC + Wings, and then soak with Wings of Cover, though if they remain flat footed against the attack...

The Druid is my hardest hitting striker, when he decides to get business done.  He wildshapes into a tiger, casts Girallon's Blessing, dumps a spell into Arcane Strike, and charges for seven attacks, with each one getting +X to hit and +Xd4 to damage.  He may or may not think to prepare Assay SR, but the Ghaele has said he is, so he hopefully got the hint.

Rogue/Wiz: MoTH has enough Spot to probably foil Invis/Hide as a means to SA. Same casting challenge.

Very good point, but I'm pretty sure he has been keeping his stealth skills up, so he might be alright.  Also, due to circumstances, he doesn't have his full spell book, but has lots of things in his mind, uncast.  He will probably be making a lot of use of his Acidic Splatter reserve feat, which doesn't allow SR, and the Hunter is not resistant to acid.

Actually, his invisibility would still be effective as far as denying the Hunter's Dex to AC.  From the DMG section on invisibility:

"A creature can generally notice the presence of an active invisible creature within 30 feet with a DC 20 Spot check. The observer gains a hunch that “something’s there” but can’t see it or target it accurately with an attack. A creature who is holding still is very hard to notice (DC 30). An inanimate object, an unliving creature holding still, or a completely immobile creature is even harder to spot (DC 40). It’s practically impossible (+20 DC) to pinpoint an invisible creature’s location with a Spot check, and even if a character succeeds on such a check, the invisible creature still benefits from total concealment (50% miss chance)."

So, he's still invisible, the Hunter would just know what square he is in.  The DC for this while the Wizard is active & attacking would be 40 (pinpointing an active invisible creature's square).  That's just the base DC. The Rule's Compendium clarifies that the invisible creature's Hide check adds on top of that.  And the way the Hide skill works, invisibility gives you a +20 bonus when moving around (it's fairly obvious this is supposed to be the source of the base DC of 20, but that isn't actually stated anywhere, so RAW it should add in too. Actually, maybe they are different things; the base DC for holding still is only 30, but the Hide skill says invisibility gives you +40 if you are immobile).

So an invisible, hiding rogue is at 1d20 + ~20 modifier + 40 = 61 - 80 as the DC to locate his square, and this is the hide check with the -20 sniping/attacking penalty that basically counteracts the +20 bonus from invisibility.  So long as the rogue is trying to hide, on average he'll still beat the Hunter's average check result of 55.

Nothing seems to indicate the invisibility can just be ignored.

Rogue/Fighter: Probably going to have to rely on flanking to do any damage? Won't be able to PA/damage reliably against that AC/DR? Can he even keep up with the movement?

If Brilliant Aura or Brilliant Blade are in play, that will help a lot.  His to-hit numbers are in the realm of +24, but higher if he's AoO'ing.  Keeping up with the Hunter could be the big problem, though. You are right there.

Actually, he might be alright, if I steer the druid's spell choices a bit.  The Rogue//Fighter will be Polymorph Other'd into a gloura, so that with a Cloud Wings spell would give him a fly speed of 90 feet, which matches the speed of the hunter (90 ft due to shadow creature).

Fly 60 perfect or 240 phantom steed riding kiting, hard to detect with Total Freedom. The steed can give away the MotHs location, but it could also be used as a decoy to lure out the PCs.

Offensively the MoTH is going to ignore the spellcasters concealment buffs, but mirror image remains decent. So that may be rude surprise. It'll be a close check whether or not the MoTH can see through the PCs invisibility with its +45 spot check and at range.

Why would the Master of the Hunt be able to see through their concealment buffs?  I may not have mentioned it here, but this is happening on the plane of shadow, so there is no moon, so many of his abilities do not function.

I'm drawing a blank as to what you are referring.

Once revealed, the MoTH could use it's Phantom Steed Ride/Cover to block attacks, if it continues at ranged, with quite a range advantage.

I hadn't even thought of mounted combat. That is so true.  Granted, in most such instances it will "kill" the phantom steed, but he can just make a new one as a swift action, and he can fly on his own, so he won't fall out of the sky.

However, it's just as easy to drop a Forcecage on the guy (once detected). Don't know if you're giving him a get out of jail item or such to deal with this sort caster i win situation.

I am not giving him such an out.  As a Shadow Creature he can Plane Shift 1/day, but he has already used it to come to the plane of shadow.  The PC's have also asked the Ghaele to prep a few Dimensional Anchors. That along with Assay SR should help.

Now, if they've had a few rounds of fighting Shadow creatures previous, and KNOW they should be prepared for these types, it is their own failure to not be prepared for this situation. My PCs have had to learn the hard way about Protection from Evil diligence when they know they're fighting Vampires, etc. So, if they're vets at this point, I think its fair to put it on them.

They have fought Shadow Creatures before, though the fact they are currently on the plane of shadow has presented some additional problems (halved light radii, Spellcraft check required to even cast [fire] or [light] spells.)  They are keying into some other tactics that will help, though.  Getting Darkvision on everyone will be a big help in allowing them to sneak up to the location, for one.

[Nunkuruji]

The Mindsight vs. Undead/Mind-Affecting-Immune is ambiguous but the fluff has Illithids being paranoid vs Undead presumably due to no Mindsight. Personally at my table it doesn't work. Just be consistent with your PCs. There are threads, I'm not going to convince or argue.

Barb/Dusk: No PA is fine, Wraithstrike? Point being big accurate hits to do effective damage vs DR. Arcane Strike is just enough to get past DR on average.

Druid/Sorc: Yeah, one of my PCs was an Arcane Heirophant and similarly buffed his Tiger companion-familiar for the same routine. Assuming 6th level spell for Arcane Strike, that average 15 damage clears the DR, leaving the rest up to his base damage. Has to keep that rolling through 500 hps.

Rogue/Wiz: At best he has 35ft with Acidic Splatter. Tactically, a massive disadvantage, given the MotHs ability to function well at extreme or close range. It's conceivable that the Daylight getting thrown around may take a toll on the Rogue's hide check. Again, keep in mind if the MotH does succeed on seeing through the invisibility, the concealment %chance is going to get negated by Seeking.

Ok, Plane of Shadow. It's not any of his personal buffs that are ignoring concealment. It is the Seeking enchantment on the bow that I meant will negate the miss chance for that weapon. Damage threat goes way down without Moonhunter, so, much more survivable. Additionally, will the Plane of Shadow nerf his Flaming Burst weapon enchantment? I don't recall the exacts, it's been a while since I've run planar encounters. Only 60ft DV and LLV, so perhaps the longer range is out unless he's pinpointing with Listen?


Actually now that I think about Plane of Shadow for a second more. Given the senses limitations, you could consider a semi back to back encounter with the MotH sending in the Hound while he only fires from the Darkness using the Hound as a guide. After the Hound falls, he fights closer and more aggressively.

[ksbsnowowl]

Ah, Seeking!  That's what I was completely blanking on.  Maybe I'll just make this guy's bow not be Seeking.  It will help their chances somewhat.  But then again, as I demonstrated above, he doesn't actually have that good of a chance of actually noting which square the Rog//Wiz is in.

Yeah, the sight ranges, especially now that my PC's are dumping the idea of tromping through the forest with Daylight running all the time (opting for Darkvision), will be lessened.  The one issue will be that they will need the Daylight once they are facing off against the shadow creatures (there are a total of three of them: the Master of the Hunt and his Hound, as well as a gestalt Verdant Prince//Telflammar Shadowlord), so they might be visible from much farther away.  Perhaps if they are smart enough to use Daylight's touch range and touch one of the objects that the Master of the Hunt is holding, that will make their lives easier.

I've mentioned this in other threads since I first posted this one, but the kidnap victim, in the faerie spirit of trickery, has had some effects placed upon him that will make him much harder to rescue.  Some of the evil Tulani of the Unseelie Court used their at will Polymorph Any Object SLA to first Flesh to Stone him into a statue (FtS is instantaneous).  They then turned him into a brass ring.  This application of PAO should last one week (same kingdom, same intelligence) and has the added benefit of not allowing the Mindsight Beguiler to be able to detect him easily, because as per Flesh to Stone, he is "mindless, inert."

The ring is worn by the Master of the Hunt.  Oh, and for added deception, the ring was made invisible, and permanency was placed upon the invisibility.  If the PC's are smart enough to try and place the Daylight on something he is carrying, when they try to touch him, I'll give a small percent chance (say 10%) that what they touch is actually the invisible ring.

I will also allow (unbeknownst to my players), that if anyone gets a natural 20, and then confirms the critical, it will cut off the Hunter's hand, which won't seem that important at the time, but once they start detecting some magic on everything after the fight (and when they are fretting that they can't find the kidnap victim), will display the invisible ring.