Bone Knight

[Demelain]

Bone Knight requires BAB +4, which is Cleric 6 (0->1->2->3->3->4).
While Cloistered Cleric loses armor proficiencies, Bone Knight get prof. with all armor and shields (including tower shields). If you start at or near the point you'd enter BK, I wouldn't consider it a bad trade, honestly. It does delay entry until CL. Cleric 8, though, so that's all about starting character level - or if you can get into +1 BAB/+1 CL PrC before then.

[ShubNiggurath]

I am not sure how you enter with Cleric 5 (you can't) or cleric 6, due to the skill point requirements. I am not aware of any domain that gives you ride as a class skill. If you are buying ride cross-class you need 28 sp to enter. Over 6 levels that's 4 sp/level i.e. 12 INT and human.
Are you really going to buy a 12 INT on a melee cleric?

You need Cloistered Cleric to enter BK fast (and that's at ECL 7, not 6) without losing CL

[JaronK]

Generally, I think the Bone Knight's special pool would be used for utility undead (Slaymates, Ghostly Visages, and so on), not combat undead.  Animate Dead is fine for the latter purpose.

JaronK

[Demelain]

I am not sure how you enter with Cleric 5 (you can't) or cleric 6, due to the skill point requirements. I am not aware of any domain that gives you ride as a class skill. If you are buying ride cross-class you need 28 sp to enter. Over 6 levels that's 4 sp/level i.e. 12 INT and human.
Are you really going to buy a 12 INT on a melee cleric?

You need Cloistered Cleric to enter BK fast (and that's at ECL 7, not 6) without losing CL

Craft(Armorsmithing) 6
Knowledge(Religion) 4
Ride 6 (CC = 12)

Total = 22, not 28.

INT 10 + Human => 3*9 SP = 27, you've got five to spare.

More concerning would be that to get 6 ranks in Ride cross-class requires ECL 9 to begin with.



But you're still missing the point. A Bone Knight is better for the purpose of hitting with and being hit by sticks than straight cleric is.

[SorO_Lost]

Generally, I think the Bone Knight's special pool would be used for utility undead (Slaymates, Ghostly Visages, and so on), not combat undead.  Animate Dead is fine for the latter purpose.

Why not intermix?

All through you to bring up an excellent side point I haven't covered. Bone March is a separate pool. A 10th level Bone Knight with a Rod of Undead Mastery controls eighty more HD worth of Undead than someone else.

On Ride, someone else mentioned Domain and I added to my post thinking that was a Domain for it. But you're right I can't think of any Domains. Feat wise, Cosmopolitan has been printed for years and solves any Skill problems. And if you some reason you feel Feat tight, Ordained Champion or Anyspell(heroics, bite of the X) chips in with Fighter Feats & Power Attack.

[ShubNiggurath]

I am not sure how you enter with Cleric 5 (you can't) or cleric 6, due to the skill point requirements. I am not aware of any domain that gives you ride as a class skill. If you are buying ride cross-class you need 28 sp to enter. Over 6 levels that's 4 sp/level i.e. 12 INT and human.
Are you really going to buy a 12 INT on a melee cleric?

You need Cloistered Cleric to enter BK fast (and that's at ECL 7, not 6) without losing CL

Craft(Armorsmithing) 6
Knowledge(Religion) 4
Ride 6 (CC = 12)

Total = 22, not 28.

INT 10 + Human => 3*9 SP = 27, you've got five to spare.

More concerning would be that to get 6 ranks in Ride cross-class requires ECL 9 to begin with.

You are right since I included Craft weaponsmithing as well, that you need to pick up if you want the bonecraft weapon class feature (and SorO convinced me that I do). You can pick up those during BK levels but concentration is cross class for BK so you need all the sp you can get. I am not comfortable with a melee cleric with low concentration skill

About the ECL9 requirement... you are right. And that means that you need a Faerun feat (Cosmopolitan) to enter an Eberron class. Great. How often do you think that's allowed in games out there?

[Jackinthegreen]

http://www.minmaxboards.com/index.php?topic=9691.0 has some other ways of getting class skills.

[ShubNiggurath]

Thanks man! Useful reference.

Unfortunately none of this allow you to
1) Not lose a CL
2) Get ride as class skill

[Demelain]

Thanks man! Useful reference.

Unfortunately none of this allow you to
1) Not lose a CL
2) Get ride as class skill

Aerenai Focus lets you have Ride as a class skill, and is from Eberron. But it means being an Elf, although the fluff of an Aerenal Bone Knight is very, very solid.
Flexible Mind from DrMag 326 will also get it for you, with an alignment restriction instead of a racial one. Both are feats.

At the end of the day, however, if I'm going to be a melee Cleric I'm not going into BK from straight Cleric. I'm hitting up Ordained Champion (which you can enter from Cleric 4) for 3 levels. Those three levels have Ride as a class skill.

[SorO_Lost]

Ordained Champions is a very nice inclusion. Sure it means another CL loss but it vastly improves your combat abilities. Channel Spell lets you overcome the duality nature of melee/caster as well by allowing you to cast spells and attack as part of a same action. In fact, with Quick Draw you can prepare a dozen knives in the morning and make spell/melee based Full-Attacks.

You can even ironically Channel Persisted Personal Spells through it too if you really wanted some super-undead minion.

[Elric VIII]

I'm sure all high quality guides of each of those will explain how an army of Hydras murder-screw everything in D&D.

This is possibly the best thing I have read this week. Thank you. 


So, anyway, on to the discussion at hand:

I can say that I have had the fun of playing a Bone Knight character from level 1-20. We did not have the most optimized group (Summoner Sorcerer, Rogue SA Pouncer/Martial Adepts, and a Dervish/Warblade), but I was hands down the most powerful one even with 2 CL down. What you have to remember is that Cleric is one of the BIG 5 classes. The best of the best. So unless you find something that is just Cleric+, like Planar Shepherd is to the Druid, you will always be sacrificing something. As a random side note, I think that is supposed to be the point of a PrC, anyway, to move your focus into one area.

So, what I did was Human Paragon 3/Cleric 1/Church Inquisitor 6/Bone Knight 10. Not in that order, I took Bone Knight at ECL 7 with partial BAB. This lost me 2 CLs, but most of the Clerics best spells come at the 3-5 range anyway (ignoring Gate, Miracle, etc). I had a 32 point buy that gave me something like STR 14/DEX 8/CON 12/INT 12/WIS 16/CHA 15 using the middle age template. Human Paragon raised Wis.

I focused on buffing the party and using no-save debuffs on the enemy, along with some intimidation with Imperious Command/Never Outnumbered. I also used Divine Defiance and various CL boosters to counter/dispel enemy casters while DMM: Quickening buffs. I crafted armor and weapons, so my AC was in the mid-high 70s by level 20 and my mount was generously equipped, as well. My own equipment used the standard mounted charge items to get all the feats without spending feats.

In the mid levels, after I got my Fill the Ranks and Bone March I stated amassing utility undead (yeah, combat isn't everything). I used the Karnathi undead to pilot a ship (who has the resources for Profession: sailing, anyway?) and I had a group of Ankheg that I used to tunnel, excavate, and generally reshape the terrain to my whims. Eventually I acquired a Purple Worm zombie to act as a bit of siege equipment (although that was part of my normal turning pool). Undead armies are useful for more than just combat.

[SorO_Lost]

Don't forget your Incorporeal Undead either. While a Shadow may forget what position they are in, it's smart enough to report the general gist of what's going on next door.

Plus, while standing on your square they grant you Concealment and you grant them Cover. So you don't need to be in the closet to make Hide Checks

[Sevash]

I've always been a fan of Cloistered Cleric 3/Church Inquisitor 1 as an entry point into Ordained Champion.  That way you can trade off Inquisitor's gain of the Inquisition domain power for the Knowledge Devotion feat, allowing you to still retain the benefit of the extra knowledge skills for those opening three levels until you get into Champion--at which point you trade the extra Knowledge domain power away for an extra fighter feat, because you'll never take a level of Cleric again.  Or heck, if you don't like Knowledge Devotion just trade both of those off once you're a Champ.

And while we're throwing around the Ordained Champion and Bone Knight combo, might as well also mention Prestige Paladin if we're LG.  It has feat tax in the form of Mounted Combat, but you can grab that at level one at the cost of a couple cross-class skill points or wait until after your first level of Champion and trade off one of your domains.  You're taking ranks in Ride anyway and getting a steed that is at least sweet-looking, might as well make use of them.  In exchange, you get your weapon and armor proficiencies a bit earlier than you would otherwise, a handful of other abilities, and the ability to add the paladin spells to your spell list--the last of which is awesome.  And you don't lose a caster level for that dip, so there's no reason not to unless you can't spare the feat.

Honestly, the loss of a single caster level--or even three, if you decide to max out both Bone Knight AND Ordained Champion--isn't earth-shattering.  What you're trading off in spell capacity you're gaining in immunities, which are far more important to surviving high-level play than either hit points or armor class.  This means you're saving cash on the items you'd need to gain those immunities or saving spell slots on the spells you'd cast to have them temporarily.  Heck, it might even be worthwhile for an undead character to take this class, as it would provide redundant defenses against those abilities that allow their racial immunities to be bypassed (the DM could hand-wave that away as the classes' features being emulations of the undead racial immunities and similarly bypassed, but it would be both a houserule AND screw over non-undead Bone Knights).

[Demelain]

I've always been iffy about taking Prestige Paladin AND Ordained Champion AND Bone Knight. They're all good for melee (especially if you can swing Battle Blessing to work with Paladin-only spells you cast), but clustering three lost spell levels that early in the build irks me. I can deal with one, even two - but three within ~5 levels, and that early in your career? That's going to start hurting.

[Sevash]

If that's the case, you don't need to finish Ordained Champion right away.  Wait until after level 8 or so of Bone Knight, to prioritize getting those delicious immunities.  The third lost caster level only hits at 4th level of Ordained Champion, so you can pad it out a bit more--you'll qualify for Bone Knight well before then.

I also wouldn't really advise taking a second level of Prestige Paladin, unless you planned on going into epic levels.  Then shenanigans could happen, but that's not really the point here.  At any rate, that first level of Prestige Paladin doesn't lose you a caster level at all so I'm not seeing why it'd be a big deal to include that as well.

[Demelain]

If that's the case, you don't need to finish Ordained Champion right away.  Wait until after level 8 or so of Bone Knight, to prioritize getting those delicious immunities.  The third lost caster level only hits at 4th level of Ordained Champion, so you can pad it out a bit more--you'll qualify for Bone Knight well before then.

I also wouldn't really advise taking a second level of Prestige Paladin, unless you planned on going into epic levels.  Then shenanigans could happen, but that's not really the point here.  At any rate, that first level of Prestige Paladin doesn't lose you a caster level at all so I'm not seeing why it'd be a big deal to include that as well.

Oh. I thought Prestige Paladin lost its CL on level 1.
Never mind, then. I never finished Ordained Champion in the first place.

[Sevash]

What we have here is...a failure to communicate!  Or not quite, that's just what popped into my head.

What would you do in lieu of finishing up Ordained Champion?  Those last two levels aren't totally godawful, I suppose, but there have to be better options out there.

[Demelain]

I'd have to check around a bit to see what I would go instead - I haven't played one in a game that got to the point that I had finished Bone Knight and 3 levels of OC. But I don't consider level 4 and 5 to be worth the CL loss, so I'd break off after 3.

[Sevash]

I'm asking because I plan on playing a Bone Knight in the (distant?) future--we're finally taking a crack at the adventure paths from Dragon, and sailing a ship of the dead down the river Styx to challenge a demon prince at the end of Savage Tide is the heaviest of metals.  Since that will be going at least to 20th level, it's worth thinking on.

What about Divine Oracle?  Second level gets you evasion, which is nice.  Not sure that evasion's worth as much that late in the game, though.

[Jackinthegreen]

Evasion's worth is mostly in avoiding damage although some more annoying effects do target Ref saves.  It's far more likely that you'll want to get some kind of Mettle.

Here's a list of most (perhaps all) 3.5 ways to get it:

Base classes:
Goliath Rogue substitution level (RoS 152): 2nd, Mettle on Fort save only
Hexblade (CW 5) 3rd level
Crusader (ToB 8) 13th level


Prestige Classes:
Pious Templar (CD 50) 1st level
Witch Slayer (ToM 67) 2nd level
Hellreaver (FC2 93) 4th level
Vigilante (CAd 85) 9th level
Iron Mind (RoS 114) 5th level, Mettle on Will save only

Tabard of Valor (CCh 142) Item, 16,000 Grants Mettle when at or lower than half hit points, or Improved Mettle if the character already has mettle from a class or other effect.