ECL 8 Gestalt Whisper Gnome were-owl

[ShubNiggurath]

I am trying to build a skillmonkey/sneaky/melee rogue ECL 8 gestalt character and I was thinking about a whisper gnome were-owl for crazy hide/move silently boni

Currently I am at:

Rogue 1/scout 5/ Ranger 1/Shadowdancer 1//Barbarian 1/LA+3/ Animal HD 1/Monk 2/Cl Cleric 1
I still need to figure out the optimal order

- I am planning to Use both the Swift Hunter and Swift Ambusher feats so that advancing scout on one side advances also SA and Favored enemy. But that means that I need a rogue level and a ranger level in there
- Monk 2 is there to use unarmed strike AND the claw/claw/bite routine of the animal hybrid form (+ flurry and TWF if needed) to increase the number of attacks. Also needed to meet the Shadowdancer requirements
- I am taking natural lycanthrope because I can't figure out a way to make a DC 25 Change shape check in combat (you have to pass a check every time you lose 1/4 of your hp... and that WILL happen)
- Shadowdancer is necessary for HIPS. ToM is not allowed in this game so no Dark template to save the day. LoM not allowed either
- Cl cleric is there for travel devotion too activate skirmish
- Barbarian is there for pounce

Overall I feel that I am stretched too thin and I have a BAB too low to take advantage of all my attacks. So the questions are:

1) How to optimize my build to increase BAB and SA while keeping the thematic melee rogue with huge hide/Move silently check?
2) How to reliably make a DC25 Change shape check in combat (meaning that I need a +24 to the check) so that I can have one more level to play with? Assume +2 WIS and 11 ranks
3) I am planning to continue scout on one side (since it improves also SA AND Favored enemy and it allows me to be a skillmonkey) but what to do for the other side? The only thing I know is that I wnat to take a level of exemplar at ECL 10. Can you guys help me find a class or PrC that has:
- Good BAB
- Good FOR/WILL (ideally)
- Nifty abilities that ideally fit a melee rogue (SA, hide, mobility)


Allowed sources are: All core, All completes, MiC, SpC, PHBII, MMII, Dungeonscape, Tome of Battle, Expanded Psioncs Handbook, Races of Stone, Cityscape, and Unearthed Arcana

DISCLAIMER: I knoww that melee rogues suck. I never played one though, and I wanted to try it for once

[Jackinthegreen]

If you're going to be unarmed, you might want to think twice about going TWF and using flurry since the rules have been contradictory.  I'll refer you to http://www.enworld.org/forum/showthread.php?88125-WotC-ruling-on-TWF-Flurry-of-Blows to see most of the wonky stuff with that.  Ask your DM about how it all works, given that the rules haven't properly cleared things up by most accounts.

Have you considered swordsage or warblade in your build?  Sudden Leap might work nicely for you, plus various Shadow Hand maneuvers will be nice for being stealthy and opportunistic. 

Strictly-speaking, you won't be able to do barb 1/ LA+3/whatever else on that one side since natural lycanthrope is an inherited template, meaning you'd have the LA first before adding class levels on that side just like the LA from being any race pretty much.  Well, unless your DM says otherwise.

Keep in mind Swift Ambusher only progresses Skirmish, not SA.

[zook1shoe]

Hoot-hoot-hooooooo!!

feral works for pounce

also you need more animal HD

1 gnome + 1/2 base owl = 1-1/2 which means you can't drop it with class levels. Also, you can't advance as an animal class, you need to choose 'advanced-owl'

[Maat Mons]

By a quirk of the rules, even natural lycanthropes get a class level before their animal hit dice.  That tidbit is tucked away in the skills section.  So, he takes his level in rogue//barbarian, which replaces his humanoid hit die, then he gets his animal hit die from owl. 

It's a shame Savage Species isn't allowed, or you could get the +14 to move silently more cheaply from anthropomorphic owl. 

[ShubNiggurath]

If you're going to be unarmed, you might want to think twice about going TWF and using flurry since the rules have been contradictory.  I'll refer you to http://www.enworld.org/forum/showthread.php?88125-WotC-ruling-on-TWF-Flurry-of-Blows to see most of the wonky stuff with that.  Ask your DM about how it all works, given that the rules haven't properly cleared things up by most accounts.

Thanks man, I will check. Unfortunately my BAB is too low to really use both effectively

Have you considered swordsage or warblade in your build?  Sudden Leap might work nicely for you, plus various Shadow Hand maneuvers will be nice for being stealthy and opportunistic. 

Good point. I dislike ToB but I might need to leverage it for this build. Should I go for Warblade? It seems it gestalts better with a rogue-ish PrC (high HP, FOR save, BAB)

Keep in mind Swift Ambusher only progresses Skirmish, not SA.

OMG you are right! I guess that I need to review my entire build. Scout might be not worth it at all after all. The Cloistered cleric level made it too much work anyway.
I still need to figure out a cheap way to sneak attack monsters that are immune to crits, then

[Jackinthegreen]

What kind of cheap are you thinking about?  See if Dungeonscape can be allowed, the Penetrating Strike ACF lets you deal half your SA damage against stuff immune to crits.  It replaces the Trap Sense feature, which isn't all that useful anyway.  It only works when you flank the enemy though, and it doesn't work against things that can't be flanked (Darkstalker would help in that area, but LoM isn't allowed.)

You may want to look at the ACF list to find something useful.

Warblade would help keep you alive, but it won't really help with your stealth otherwise.  However, it would definitely give you options for damage other than SA.  Swordsage is the better stealth class, and it has some of the damage options Warblade does.  Things like Assassin's Stance also showcase why swordsage is the better sneaky option.

The Demolition and Truedeath weapon crystals would work for constructs and plants, but if you're going TWF they'll be expensive.  You might not have to worry much about plants, but there is the Vine Strike spell which you might be able to get a wand of and UMD.

[ShubNiggurath]

I got Penetrating Strike of course. Is there any feat that helps flanking?

I read about the swordsage dip and it is suggested to take it at L9 so next level. For now I have to work without it, I guess

Weapon crystals are a problem since I am using unarmed strikes. Still, since US count also as manufactured weapons, maybe the weapon crystal would work?
The two biggest monster groups that you can't SA are undead and constructs. If I cover those two I should be fine. A cloistered CLeric dip would give me gravestrike, so I guess that I need to find a way to hit constructs. Maybe elementals and incorporeals as well

[Jackinthegreen]

Since you have to rework your build anyway if you want to get SA damage to decent levels, you might want to think about adding SS in there.

Vexing Flanker is one of the notable flanking feats.  Adaptable Flanker can technically let you flank with yourself.

If you go swordsage there's the Island of Blades stance which helps with flanking.

If LoM was allowed then Darkstalker would definitely help with flanking and stealth in general.

[ShubNiggurath]

I assume that SS is swordsage. In that case am I not better off adding it at ECL9? I am really a noob with ToB, please be patient

Great tip about the flanker feats! EDIT: unfortunately they don't work for SA. Adaptable flanker allows you to pick another square you threaten to determine flanking even with yourself. That means that a small/medium character can only use it to SA against a medium or smaller opponent and even then only with a reach weapon.

And a pity about darkstalker... (and craven as well, I love both feats and neither is allowed)


The new build I am trying to craft is:
Whisper gnome were-owl
Rogue [Penetrating Strike] 4/Swashbuckler 3/Shadowdancer 1//Barbarian [Lion Totem; Whirling Frenzy] 1/LA 3/Animal HD 1/Monk [Cobra Strike] 2/ Cloistered Cleric 1

Comments:
- Swashbuckler is kinda lame but I have 16 INT so it might be worth it. I already get weapon finesse from were-owl unfortunately. At least it has full BAB
- Cloistered Cleric is ok but not necessary. I am mainly using it to get travel devotion and improved initiative (for Nightsong Enforcer entry). It also gives me gravestrike... but that's only for one round anyway
- I can move the shadowdancer level to either side but it has to be at ECL 8
- Monk is necessary to get the feats to enter Shadowdancer. I am also planning to go unarmed

Key Feats: Daring Outlaw

Continuation: Rogue on one side (to continue being a skillmonkey), some mix of Nightsong Enforcer, Thug variant fighter and maybe Blade Bravo to maximize BAB and SA. Also an exemplar dip and a SS dip

I need help on:
- How to reliably make the Control Shape skill check DC25 to avoid becoming an animal every time I get hit (I am at 11 ranks + 3 WIS +5 DM approved item = 19 now. I would need 22 and possibly 24 to feel comfortable)
- Optimizing continuation (and current levels) to maximize SA and BAB + skillmonkey-ness and stealth

[Jackinthegreen]

Yes, SS is swordsage.

You'll be able to get some better maneuvers at ECL 9 than doing it earlier since you'd be at Initiator Level 5 I think, but the trick is you're not playing ECL9 right now, and you might want some maneuvers (or at least a stance) to start off with.

Swashbuckler up until 3 or 4 (for the dead level ability if it's a social game) is fairly decent.  After that it's a POS.  Which reminds me, I need to finish my handbook for them...  Ask if you can get Insightful Strike to work on crit-immune stuff because of Penetrating Strike.  While you're at it, ask if you can swap Grace for Arcane Stunt (Complete Mage, page 32) and let it work in place of Grace for Daring Outlaw.  Mostly since Grace is a crappy class feature.

You might want to get a hold of a scorpion kama from the MiC page 201.

I know of no ways to really buff the Control Shape skill or to Take 10 on it barring the Exemplar and such.  Hopefully someone else can chime in.

I assume Unearthed Arcana's LA buyoff isn't available?

[ShubNiggurath]

No buyoff unfortunately

I am thinking about dropping swashbuckler actually. It takes over my L6 feat and it only gives me back some REF save, a handful of hp and +3 to damage (INT=16) when I can already crit. But I lose a feat and 12 skill points for it. The BAB increase is not huge given that you can stagger classes on the other side to max BAB

Should I go rogue 8 instead?

[Rebel7284]

I would like to say that this is a concept I really enjoy and have thought about in the past since rolling a lot of dice is fun!

Haven't had a chance to focus on this yet, will give more ideas later today.

[Ithamar]

I find the complete lack of Warshaper to be off-putting.   

Oh, and LA buy-off is allowed.

[Jackinthegreen]

No buyoff unfortunately

I am thinking about dropping swashbuckler actually. It takes over my L6 feat and it only gives me back some REF save, a handful of hp and +3 to damage (INT=16) when I can already crit. But I lose a feat and 12 skill points for it. The BAB increase is not huge given that you can stagger classes on the other side to max BAB

Should I go rogue 8 instead?

I hope you mean staggering in terms of pairing a full BAB class with one that isn't, instead of the fighter 1/wizard19//sorc20 trick to get 20 BAB.  If the latter is an option due to not using fractionals then be leery of it.

And yeah, swashbuckler won't get you anything worthwhile except better BAB, HP, and saves if you've already got Weapon Finesse.  Rogue 8 will work fine if you're not keen on doing anything with swordsage or warblade.

Are class alignments going to be enforced?  You do have barbarian and monk on the same build after all, so you might run into that problem.

[ShubNiggurath]

@ Jack

Yeah, the cheesy staggering is explicitly allowed and encouraged, so...

I still can't figure out anything better than swashbuckler. All in all, I feel that rogue 5/swashbuckler 3 + daring outlaw is better than rogue 8. Any suggestions? ToB classes on the rogue side would make me lose too much SA, unless you mean just a 1 level dip. If so what would I get in exchange for the lost SA?

Class alignments are not a problem. Lycan slowly turns you into the animal's alignment (owl = N), so he started LN (monk levels) and became N (barbarian). I might have to pick the barbarian level later than monk though


@Ithamar

True but buyoff doesn't help a LA+3 character at ECL 8. Warshaper uh? I didn't think about it, good call

[Jackinthegreen]

Choosing a ToB class for just one level will get you multiple maneuvers and a stance.  For instance, there's the Shadow Hand maneuver Cloak of Deception which grants you the benefits of Greater Invisibility for a round as a swift action.  Or perhaps you'd like Shadow Jaunt to teleport up to 50 feet as a standard, extraordinary ability.  You can freely say "screw you" to anti-magic zones with it.  Both of those are 2nd level maneuvers by the way.

Seriously, look through the maneuvers like you would spells.  They're what make all the ToB classes outclass "normal" mundane classes, and several of the gimped casters.

A 1st level swordsage gets 6 known maneuvers and 4 maneuvers readied, plus a stance, though the recovery mechanic sucks.  Warblades might seem to get the shaft with only 3 maneuvers known and 3 readied at first, but they have excellent maneuver choices and the best recovery mechanic of all the classes since it's a swift action followed by either a standard weapon attack or a full attack.

Don't get too attached to Sneak Attack by the way.  The ToB classes will tend to outdo full attacks with SA just by using their maneuvers.  It takes some definite optimization to get SA to a decent place damage-wise.

[Rebel7284]

How much money do you have? The Codex Anathema allows you to enter Exemplar at level 6.  The problem is that it costs 37500.

[ShubNiggurath]

@Rebel

Not enough. Also I suspect that what you suggest does not belong to the allowed sources in the OP

@Jack

I will take a look, thanks! Still, I really would like to make a SA build. My character has STR 5, so I am not sure that ToB classes can push my standard damage that high. My only option is extra damage (favored enemy, sudden strike, SA...) I think. Right now the build is

Whisper Gnome were-owl
Rogue 7/ Shadowdancer 1//Barbarian 1/LA 3/ HD 1/Warshaper 1/Monk 2

Bonus feats: Weapon Finesse [were-owl], Alertness [were-owl], Iron Will [were-owl], Skill focus (Intimidate) [Otyugh hole]
From monk: Dodge, Mobility (for Shadowdancer)
Flaw: Combat Reflexes (for Shadowdancer)
1) Improved Initiative (for Nightsong Enforcer)
3) Titan Fighting (RoS)
6) Multiattack (since I have 3 natural attacks + a 4th coming from warshaper)

Continuing as Rogue on one side and Warshaper, Nightsong Enforcer, Fighter (Thug variant) and 1-level dip in Exemplar on the other. ToB dip under consideration

[Jackinthegreen]

Maneuvers mostly care about you hitting, not so much about how much damage your normal attack will do since plenty of them add their own damage independent of the weapon.  Just look at the maneuvers and you'll see many do work with a dex-based character.

[Ithamar]

Yeah, combining something simply like Wolf Fang Strike (a level 1 manuever) lets you attack twice as a standard action.  Combines well with FlyBy attack.  Use your Unarmed Strike to TWF and of course you have Shadowblade.  So you swoop in, punch twice, with each hit getting DEX to damage.  Then you just keepy flying out of harm's way.

By the way, it seems you dumped the Cloistered Cleric idea, but I wanted to remind you that a hybrid or animal form lycan can't cast spells with verbal components.  So Grave Strike wouldn't have been all that helpful.