24 HD True Dragon with additional Sorcerer class levels - Epic BAB progression?

[ksbsnowowl]

I've stolen the quotes from a good post I found at enWorld via google.

Here are what the primary sources say:

After 20th level, your base attack bonus never improves. You gain epic bonuses and other bonuses on your attack roll, but these don't ever increase your base attack bonus and thus never grant you additional attacks.

This limit doesn't apply to the base attack bonus derived strictly from a monster's Hit Dice. For instance, a titan with 21 HD using the advancement rules in the Monster Manual has a base attack bonus of +21. Thus, another cap exists: A high base attack bonus never grants a creature more than four attacks with any given weapon using the full attack option.

(Emphasis added.)

The epic rules in this section also work for monsters with character levels, using the creature's effective character level (ECL) instead of just its class leves. For example, a bugbear (3 Hit Dice and +2 level adjustment) that is also a 14th-level fighter/3rd level blackguard is ECL 22 and thus gains an epic attack and save bonus.

Regardless of its ECL, a monster with class levels uses the base attack bonus and base save bonus progressions of its class (rather than the [epic] progression shown on table 1-1) until it has 20 character levels. Beginning with its 21st character level, it uses the progressions shown on table 1-1.

In any other place where "character level" is indicated, you can use effective character level instead. For example, a creature with a level adjustment of +5 who is also a 13th-level fighter/3rd-level blackguard is ECL 21 and eligible to select an epic feat provided he meets the prerequisites.

(Emphasis added.)

Epic Save Bonus: A character’s base save bonus does not increase after character level reaches 20th. However, the character does receive a cumulative +1 epic bonus on all saving throws at every even-numbered level beyond 20th, as shown on Table: Epic Save and Epic Attack Bonuses. Any time a feat, prestige class, or other rule refers to your base save bonus, use the sum of your base save bonus and epic save bonus.

Epic Attack Bonus: Similarly, the character’s base attack bonus does not increase after character level reaches 20th. However, the character does receive a cumulative +1 epic bonus on all attacks at every odd-numbered level beyond 20th, as shown on Table: Epic Save and Epic Attack Bonuses. Any time a feat, prestige class, or other rule refers to your base attack bonus, use the sum of your base attack bonus and epic attack bonus.

(Emphasis added.)

When a creature's description refers to character level, add any class levels it has to the base creature's Hit Dice to determine the character level. This is not the same as effective character level (see below),, [sic] which also includes a level adjustment. The creature's base save and base attack bonuses are based on its character level.

(Emphasis added.)

Most deities are 20 HD outsiders with 30 to 50 character levels as well. These additional character levels beyond an effective character level of 20th follow the rules for epic levels.

Character levels above 20th confer some, but not all, of the benefits of normal levels. Deities gain all the class features for all their levels. The deity also gains the normal Hit Die for that class, plus additional skill points as if the deity had a level in that class normally. The deity gains an ability bonus every four levels, and a feat every three levels.

Beyond character level 20th, deities’ attack and saving throw bonuses increase at new rates. Deities gain a +1 epic attack bonus at 21st level and every other level thereafter. No deity can have more than four attacks derived strictly from its base attack bonus. Deities also gain a +1 bonus on saving throws at 22nd level and every other level thereafter.

(Emphasis added.)

Already, you can see that the references contradict each other, and in some cases, themselves.

In the ELH itself, NPCs began using the epic charts when their character levels hit 21, so in this instance it correctly followed its own rules. For example, Gerti Orelsdottr (ELH 294) has a base Will save bonus of +11 (giant 14/clr 5/runecaster 1 + 1 epic) rather than the +12 she would have if her runecaster BSB had added normally. The many examples in Deities and Demigods and Faiths and Pantheons all follow these rules. (The corresponding SRD says in one place that ECL determines which progression to use, and in another that character level does, but the ECL ruling cannot be correct because deities have no official ECL.)

The Monster Manual doesn't use the epic rules at all; every monster in that book uses nonepic advancement. Examples include the frost giant jarl on page 122, which is exactly the same type of creature as Gerti Orelsdottr from the ELH. The monsters I've seen from other 3.5 supplements seem to follow the MM's example. The eldritch giant confessor (MM 57), a 25 HD giant, adds the cleric's normal BAB progression instead of the epic progression. There is no rule anywhere that I know of to justify this practice, but it's what the designers and developers consistently do.

Now, we get to the FAQ, which as always has the final and indisputable explanation. 

Use the character's ECL to determine starting equipment and how the character earns and benefits from experience (including when he gains an epic attack and save bonus; DMG p. 209), as noted on page 5 of Savage Species.

Page 5 of SS actually says the direct opposite, as shown above. The DMG reference contradicts both the book itself and every other source. And, on the very next page:

A monster becomes an epic-level character when its character level hits 21, just like any other character. A monster's character level equals its racial Hit Dice + class levels. (See the second sidebar on page 25 of the Epic Level Handbook.)

A creature's ECL has no effect on when it becomes an epic character....

Sooooooo.... If I take a 24 HD dragon, say a Mature Adult Blue Dragon, and add two levels of a Sorcerer prestige class, what BAB and saves should be added?  Just read them off the PrC chart and add them on?  Or would the dragon just get +1 Epic Attack Bonus and +1 Epic Save Bonus to each save?

I'll probably opt for just adding the bonuses from the class chart, and ignore the Epic stuff, as that's what a lot of the MM1 monsters do.  But I curious if there was any other official pronouncement on the matter...

[PlzBreakMyCampaign]

None.

[ksbsnowowl]

None.

Unhelpful much? 

He would have to get some form of BAB/Saves progression, be it Epic or otherwise. I'm just trying to determine what way is "right."

[Inuyasha]

I think that means just use regular bab n such, not epic, if im stupiding, forgive me its 12:22 AM

[whitetyger009]

here you go I will be a dick for you.  when did the dragon take the PrC?  if we say the dragon takes it as soon as it qualifies for it then read it right off the chart and add it on.  he then adds the rest of his HD in and that isn't subject to the epic limits. 

or he takes them after he is maxed out and then takes them as epic and adds it that way.

[ksbsnowowl]

here you go I will be a dick for you.  when did the dragon take the PrC?  if we say the dragon takes it as soon as it qualifies for it then read it right off the chart and add it on.  he then adds the rest of his HD in and that isn't subject to the epic limits. 

or he takes them after he is maxed out and then takes them as epic and adds it that way.

interesting approach. Don't know if it's "right," but it makes about as much sense as one can make out of the cluster f*ck of contradicting rules quoted above.

[betrayor]

I would play it if the dragon takes the class  levels before he hits 20 hit dice then add them normally,if he gains them after add the as epic BAB and epic Save bonuses,
if the dragon is taking one of the dragon prestige classes(draconomicon) then add them normally regardless of when it takes them....

[SorO_Lost]

Just pointing out the FAQ and SS agree.

Now, we get to the FAQ, which as always has the final and indisputable explanation. 

Use the character's ECL to determine starting equipment and how the character earns and benefits from experience (including when he gains an epic attack and save bonus; DMG p. 209), as noted on page 5 of Savage Species.

Page 5 of SS actually says the direct opposite, as shown above.

Lore quoted "Character Level", but the FAQ entry is talking about WBL and XP which would be:

Effective Character Level_(ECL): A creature’s effective character level is the sum of its level adjustment, Hit Dice, and class levels. Use character level for all game functions except awarding experience, determining starting equipment, and determining how much experience the character needs to gain a new level. All three of those functions use effective character level instead.

So Lore didn't enough research.

The second remark from the FAQ is sort of correct. It cites ELH pg25 which says ECL is not a factor in determining Epic progression.

But wait, DMG 209 says ELC matters!
Which is really the thing going on here. Two tail end 3.0 books, SS & ELH, the latter Primary Source, disagree with an offhand 3.5 update. Do you stick to the Errata's Primary Source rule reasoning that ELH cites SS which was supposed to be 3.5 compatible and the 3.5 SRD version of the ELH content never makes a reference to "Effective Character Level"? Or do you stick to the DMG is the 3.5 method of handling things?

Personally, I use the ELH. Apparently, the FAQ does to. And the Errata would back that decision up is it's 3.0/3.5 ambiguous, only caring what is Primary Source or not so it'd side with the ELH too.

[ksbsnowowl]

Good analysis, SorO.

    Regardless of its ECL, a monster with class levels uses the base attack bonus and base save bonus progressions of its class (rather than the [epic] progression shown on table 1-1) until it has 20 character levels. Beginning with its 21st character level, it uses the progressions shown on table 1-1.

    In any other place where "character level" is indicated, you can use effective character level instead. For example, a creature with a level adjustment of +5 who is also a 13th-level fighter/3rd-level blackguard is ECL 21 and eligible to select an epic feat provided he meets the prerequisites.

So this is what should be happening.  The only other direct (well pretty damn direct) contradiction to this seems to be the Dragon prestige classes in Draconomicon.  Most all of them can't be taken until after 20 HD, and they all, IIRC, grant full BAB.  The Bloodscaled Fury requires BAB of +22, and grants full BAB for all its 12 levels.

That gives some precedence for dragons to just flat out ignore the epic progression rules on BAB and saves, but maybe that should only apply to the PrC's in Draconomicon...

Maybe I should just fudge the rules in a way to try and make sense of things like the Frost Giant Jarl and the advanced Eldritch Giant... maybe it takes 20 class levels before Epic BAB/saves go into effect.  I know this directly contradicts what the ELH says, but it seems to be the best middle ground between "racial HD don't follow epic rules," "human classed characters follow epic rules," and what is presented by things like the Frost Giant Jarl and the Dragon PrC's in Draconomicon.

[whitetyger009]

ksbsnowowl my take on it?  very simple.  monsters are not characters.  they do not adhere to the same rules in the same way that characters do.  I say that monster HD do not stack with character classes to determine epic status.  think of it as an insight bonus stacking with an enhancement bonus.  as long as they come from two different typed bonus they stack.  in this case character levels and monster HD. 

[SorO_Lost]

Well Draco's Classes are not really a direct opposition. While Draco attempts to acknowledge Epic rules, it only goes so far as reprinting and using Epic Feats. But it neither discusses nor ever brings up Epic Progression. Even the Advancing Dragon section is BAB/Save free because apparently the authors didn't want to touch the ELH-vs-DMG contradiction with an eleven foot pole. So you can make a very direct case of splat not referencing other splat. It happens a lot and technically it's a good thing (no built in requirement to own multiple books).

And of the PrCs you are talking about it's not that "most" are Epic only, but "half" are epic only. Four of them can be taken before the Dragon's HD would be pushed above 20. The Editors would have had to make a choice, separate the PrCs and place a header for the Epic-Onlys and provide clarification on almost a core dynamic should operate. Or keep the same familiar Class layout, not wade in sticky waters, and save a few bucks by not having to include the extra pages to adjust layouts and add more rules.

[ksbsnowowl]

ksbsnowowl my take on it?  very simple.  monsters are not characters.  they do not adhere to the same rules in the same way that characters do.  ... 

Not a bad approach, and really, this would merely result in the same disproportionate dichotomy that would exist with epic monsters that are based solely on HD anyway... with their BAB and saves outstripping the party at twice the rate.

And of the PrCs you are talking about it's not that "most" are Epic only, but "half" are epic only. (Sorry, was typing from memory.) Four of them can be taken before the Dragon's HD would be pushed above 20. The Editors would have had to make a choice, separate the PrCs and place a header for the Epic-Onlys and provide clarification on almost a core dynamic should operate. Or keep the same familiar Class layout, not wade in sticky waters, and save a few bucks by not having to include the extra pages to adjust layouts and add more rules.

I'll probably just go with Whitetygre's approach.  My PC's are gestalt anyway; they should be able to handle it.

[Nanshork]

ksbsnowowl my take on it?  very simple.  monsters are not characters.  they do not adhere to the same rules in the same way that characters do.  I say that monster HD do not stack with character classes to determine epic status.  think of it as an insight bonus stacking with an enhancement bonus.  as long as they come from two different typed bonus they stack.  in this case character levels and monster HD.

I don't like this as it penalizes characters with monster HD.

[ksbsnowowl]

ksbsnowowl my take on it?  very simple.  monsters are not characters.  they do not adhere to the same rules in the same way that characters do.  I say that monster HD do not stack with character classes to determine epic status.  think of it as an insight bonus stacking with an enhancement bonus.  as long as they come from two different typed bonus they stack.  in this case character levels and monster HD.

I don't like this as it penalizes characters with monster HD.

Which is true, and has been in the back of my mind.  It's also why the official rule from ELH p. 25 is what it is.  But the game designers didn't seem to follow it one bit, except in the ELH.

On the one hand, it is a detriment if it is used to bar a monstrous race from getting epic feats at HD 21+, but on the other hand, it is a boon in allowing such characters to get more BAB faster.

What a giant cluster...

[betrayor]

There are examples of dragons published by wotc like tyrass from explorer's handbook that show that the dragon adds the normal  class attack and save bonus,
now I know that stat blocks by wotc are sometimes wrong but I thought I should mention this in anycase.....

[whitetyger009]

Nanshork well I don't normally allow PCs to take monsters with HD as a playable character.  when I do I usually use the class advancement for race.  so the racial HD and bonuses become a character class.

very rarely have I allowed the characters to play a monster with a HD, when I do I make all PC have the same starting HD so they are all equal (use the advancement for the base monster) and then start them at first level in their classes.  have never had a problem and never had a complaint.  which is funny cause players will find all kinds of things to complain about.

[awaken_D_M_golem]

(huh) ... interesting aside, an easy mini game in
selecting classes instead of racial hd to jack up
the saves on epic, instead of low base saves.

Commoner 1 > some epic racial hd.
That doesn't happen often. 
Go Team Commoner 1 !!