Orb of Fire and Undead

[linklord231]

Orb of Fire :

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ORB OF FIRE
Conjuration (Creation) [Fire]
Level: Sorcerer/wizard 4
Effect: One orb of fire
This spell functions like orb of acid,
except that it deals fire damage. In
addition, a creature struck by an orb
of fire must make a Fortitude save or
be dazed for 1 round instead of being
sickened.

ORB OF ACID
Conjuration (Creation) [Acid]
Level: Sorcerer/wizard 4
Components: V, S
Casting Time: 1 standard action
Range: Close (25 ft. + 5 ft./2 levels)
Effect: One orb of acid
Duration: Instantaneous
Saving Throw: Fortitude partial;
see text
Spell Resistance: No
An orb of acid about 3 inches across
shoots from your palm at its target,
dealing 1d6 points of acid damage
per caster level (maximum 15d6). You
must succeed on a ranged touch attack
to hit your target.
A creature struck by the orb takes
damage and becomes sickened by the
acid’s noxious fumes for 1 round. A
successful Fortitude save negates the
sickened effect but does not reduce the
damage.

As we know, Undead are immune to "any effect that requires a Fortitude save (unless the effect also works on objects or is harmless)."  Since Orb of Fire doesn't specify that it effects objects, does that mean Undead are immune to it (including the damage)?  To put it in perspective, Fireball doesn't say that it effects objects in the Save line, but does in the spell text. 

[SorO_Lost]

If you chuck an Orb of Fire at a wall to burn through it.
Does it count as affecting the object or is the rapid oxygenation of the wall causing it to degrade?

Dun-dun-dun!

[Jackinthegreen]

The description clearly says that only the dazed portion is negated.  It does not say that the damage is also negated by a Fort save.  It's done intentionally like that.

[NunoM]

I agree.

The "Saving Throw" entry (inherited from "Orb of Acid") clearly specifies the Fortitude check partially negates the effects of the spell. In the case of both orbs, only the secondary effect is negated by the save. not the damage.

[linklord231]

But the fact remains that the spell requires a Fortitude save and may or may not effect objects - it's difficult to tell because of the nature of the spell, in that it creates an orb which is then hurled at something else.  Can you blast through a wall with an Orb?  That seems to be the crux of the issue.

If we, for the moment, assume that you can shoot Orbs at walls, would a Zombie be required to save vs the dazing effect of an Orb of Fire?  Undead are not immune to Daze, and we just decided that Orbs effect objects.  On the other hand, the spell doesn't have "Fortitude (Partial) (object)" in it's saving throw line.

What about Avasculate from the Spell Compendium?  "You must succeed on a ranged touch attack with the ray to strike a target. If the attack succeeds, the subject is reduced to half of its current hit points (rounded down) and stunned for 1 round. On a successful Fortitude saving throw, the subject is not stunned."  Again, Fortitude Partial, with no mention of its effects on objects, but the Fort save only applies vs the Stun and not the damage.  Do undead still have their hitpoints reduced?

[NunoM]

According to this and the description of the "Orb of Fire" spell in "Complete Arcane" p.116, this spell does have "Saving Throw: Fortitude (partial)" entry.

[linklord231]

According to this and the description of the "Orb of Fire" spell in "Complete Arcane" p.116, this spell does have "Saving Throw: Fortitude (partial)" entry.

I know, I quoted the spell at the beginning.  It doesn't have Fortitude (partial) (object), which it should if it effects objects. 

[NunoM]

Ok, sorry, i misread the point...

I'd say "Orb of Fire" will affect the undead to it's full extent, including the secondary effect if it fails the Fort ST. I didn't have time to check, but i think undead are affected normally by the "Dazed" condition.

That being said, i don't know which book is more recent, but the "Libris Mortis: ..." version of the spell specifies it only afects living creatures (in the description). The "Spell Compendium" version, mentions, in the fluff, that vital fluids escape through the skin, and an undead probably lacks that. Also, the secondary effect of this spell is "Stun", a condition which i know undead are immune to.

[Jackinthegreen]

The undead are immune to the secondary effect, since that's what the save is about and why it's labeled "partial."  They are not, however, immune to the damage.

By the way, Libris Mortis was first printed October 2004.  Spell Compendium was first printed December 2005.

[linklord231]

The undead are immune to the secondary effect, since that's what the save is about and why it's labeled "partial."  They are not, however, immune to the damage.

By the way, Libris Mortis was first printed October 2004.  Spell Compendium was first printed December 2005.

So then, what you're saying is that the "effect" that requires a Fort save is only the part of the spell that would be negated if they succeeded the save, and not the whole spell, correct?

[Raineh Daze]

Looking at this thread name, I thought it would be about an Orb of Undead and Fire spell, not interactions between Orb of Fire and undead.

[NunoM]

The undead are immune to the secondary effect, since that's what the save is about and why it's labeled "partial."  They are not, however, immune to the damage.

By the way, Libris Mortis was first printed October 2004.  Spell Compendium was first printed December 2005.

So then, what you're saying is that the "effect" that requires a Fort save is only the part of the spell that would be negated if they succeeded the save, and not the whole spell, correct?

The damage will always apply. Only the secondary effects allows for a save. If the save succeeds, the secondary effect is negated. The only thing that could probably avoid the Fortitude save altogether, is if the spell wasn't applicable to objects - which i thought was your point.

[linklord231]

Looking at this thread name, I thought it would be about an Orb of Undead and Fire spell, not interactions between Orb of Fire and undead.

Lol.  I had to say the title out loud a few times before I realized what you were talking about, but that's pretty funny. 

The undead are immune to the secondary effect, since that's what the save is about and why it's labeled "partial."  They are not, however, immune to the damage.

By the way, Libris Mortis was first printed October 2004.  Spell Compendium was first printed December 2005.

So then, what you're saying is that the "effect" that requires a Fort save is only the part of the spell that would be negated if they succeeded the save, and not the whole spell, correct?

The damage will always apply. Only the secondary effects allows for a save. If the save succeeds, the secondary effect is negated. The only thing that could probably avoid the Fortitude save altogether, is if the spell wasn't applicable to objects - which i thought was your point.

Well when I started the thread, that was my point.  I wasn't sure if Orb of Fire effects objects or not, and I'm still not sure if it does.  I can see arguments for both sides, but I decided to continue under the premise that you can, in fact, blast objects with Orbs.

Now the question is, why would an undead be immune to the dazing?  They aren't inherently immune to daze, and we just determined that Orb of Fire effects objects. 

[Jackinthegreen]

I'd probably rule that nonliving stuff could take the damage on it, but would be immune to the secondary effect because that part isn't meant to work on objects and such.  The reason I can tell the secondary part isn't meant to work on objects is because Orb of Acid causes nausea, which I'm quite sure objects are immune to.  It'd be nonsensical if the spell were to say "works on objects, causes nausea" due to that rule.  Likewise, since all the Orb of spells are based on Acid, it'd be reasonable to say all of them can deal damage to objects, but none can have their secondary effect apply to them.

If you want to take each one on an individual basis though, I can see a case for doing that.  The acid one wouldn't work, but the fire one might.

Now, I'm going by what's reasonable here with a bit of looking at the likely intent of the spell.  I'm not dealing with a RAW interpretation.

[nijineko]

Looking at this thread name, I thought it would be about an Orb of Undead and Fire spell, not interactions between Orb of Fire and undead.

ghostrider.

[Kethrian]

The Orbs deal damage to any target they hit.  The target is not limited to creatures.  However, the secondary effect affects only creatures, so constructs and undead are indeed immune to that portion.  Note that it is a separate paragraph from the damage portion of the spell.

[linklord231]

The Orbs deal damage to any target they hit.  The target is not limited to creatures.  However, the secondary effect affects only creatures, so constructs and undead are indeed immune to that portion.  Note that it is a separate paragraph from the damage portion of the spell.

This makes sense.