Author Topic: Is print dead?  (Read 13358 times)

Offline dman11235

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Re: Is print dead?
« Reply #20 on: June 28, 2013, 05:40:25 PM »
My response to the argument that emoticons/internet/technology/whatever scapegoat it is you're complaining about is killing print/thought/whatever (I didn't pay too much attention, because it doesn't really matter what specifically you're complaining about, the rebuttal is the same):

This entire thread.  No, this entire forum.  Go read something on the internet.  Hey look, it's writing and thinking and stuff.  The very same writing and thinking and stuff you seemingly cannot see existing in the world anymore.  Emoticons?  They convey emotion.  We've been using them since the 1800s.  Language is changing like it always has been, especially English (good luck communicating 150 years ago without issues).  If you're only seeing the idiots, you're only LOOKING at the idiots.

I mean come on.  Information/education/human interaction/whatever has been "dying" since print was invented.  People who are behind the times look at the bad aspects of new technologies and just ignore the good aspects.  And sometimes, they have to manufacture bad aspects just to be mad at something.  But you know what?  We're still social, we still talk, we still invent new ideas and stuff, all while utilizing new technologies.  Heck, the fact that there ARE new technologies should be proof enough.
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Offline kitep

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Re: Is print dead?
« Reply #21 on: July 01, 2013, 08:25:22 AM »

Offline Roxoff

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Re: Is print dead?
« Reply #22 on: July 01, 2013, 08:36:04 AM »
XKCD has a strip about howThe Art Of Letter Writing Is Fast Dying Out

Aye.  See reply #16.  Mind you - this article is so good, it deserves being linked to twice in the same thread.
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Offline Quillwraith

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Re: Is print dead?
« Reply #23 on: July 01, 2013, 11:41:45 AM »
I sure don't read ebooks, though I sometimes feel like the only one.

Offline veekie

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Re: Is print dead?
« Reply #24 on: July 01, 2013, 01:35:45 PM »
Well I converted to ebooks recently for lack of space to put paperbacks, I go through books at such a pace(reading while doing misc mindless activities) that ebooks make things significantly more portable. Pity the reading conditions reversed though. Can't read much in sunlight, but the dark became a lot more convenient.
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Offline awaken_D_M_golem

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Re: Is print dead?
« Reply #25 on: July 01, 2013, 06:59:55 PM »
One of the things soaps + primetime TV does
is they say a line of near mindless dialogue and
then they pause and show someone making a face.

There's gotta be a reason that's the order of it.
Maybe speaking and hearing language takes
more processing brain power, than reading
the emotion of a face at a quick glance.
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Offline 123456789blaaa

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Re: Is print dead?
« Reply #26 on: July 01, 2013, 07:10:36 PM »
I sure don't read ebooks, though I sometimes feel like the only one.

I don't read ebooks either (though that'll probably change in a few years). I look at screens too much as is, if I start reading ebooks I think my eyes may start to bleed. Plus I hate needing to have access to electricity.

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Offline trappedslider

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Re: Is print dead?
« Reply #27 on: July 02, 2013, 12:33:56 AM »
I have a few books on a kindle, but other wise I prefer a hard copy of the book. However if I start a series on the kindle and then all of the books for that series are gonna be on the kindle as is the case with the Divergent triology

Offline Captnq

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Re: Is print dead?
« Reply #28 on: July 02, 2013, 04:17:33 AM »
I tried very hard not to read this thread again because I knew I'd be compelled to comment.

Popular Outcry: I read books, therefore, books aren't dead!

Well, I found a four leaf clover, therefore all clovers have four leaves.

Indignant Response: Pish posh, culture has been "going downhill" and it's still here, so clearly you are wrong.

Ah, because things haven't hit rock bottom, we're all good.


Look, it's not just print, but language in general that's on the skids. Thanks for all the personal anecdotes, but I have yet to see any stated facts to disprove my observations.

Let's have some fun, shall we?

Turn on the TV. Turn to any TV program made in the last 10 years. Any TV series that doesn't involve monologs (And even then, some of those are bad). Start watching. Count out loud to yourself. One Mississippi, Two Mississippi, etc etc etc. Now then, every time the camera angle changes, start over at One Mississippi. Post how many times you make it to four in a half hour show. Panning camera shots don't count. It has to "jump" to a different angle.

Now pick a show from 1970's or even the 80's. See the difference? Back then, the story had to carry the show. These days, they rely on psychological tricks to target your lizard hind brain. You literally can't look away. That part of your DNA that is trained to watch sudden movement compels you to keep watching, regardless of how boring the show is.

Shakey cam. It's everywhere. Why? Because it fools the audience. It's easier to fool the audience then it is to tell a good story. Some people, like me, get motion sick. Most people become fixated. The quality of writing has gone down for most movies and TV shows because it's about the money. And yet over all ticket sales are down. I wonder why?

If print isn't dying, why are there less reporters now then ever? Why are newspapers closing down, going to four day a week schedules? Why are TV stations no longer maintaining news teams and only having anchors? They are sub-contracting out their news sources. Multiple stations share the same reporting team in many areas. Why?

Are they opening up new bookstores in your area? Is it a book store, or a free internet location/coffee bar/place to buy intellectual furniture? When was the last time you even HEARD about a library opening?

Yet the number of books published goes up! How many of those are high quality? How many are ebooks?

The porn industry used to be fairly upscale. making a porn movie wasn't cheap. Then you get the internet. Suddenly anyone with a bottle of viagara and someone willing to flash their tits is making porn. The market is saturated, the industry is strangling itself.

Pick any form of mass communication and the following is happening:

1. There are more and more "independents".
2. The producers are using more psychological "cheap shots" in order to gain market share as the competition grows more fierce.
3. There is less money to be made, so everyone is making cutbacks and it shows in the quality.
4. Eventually you have Consolidation which leads to a very select number of people who actually control any given sector of media. Those people want control.

Can You Say WotC? Do I even need to point to 4th edition and how they practically mandated that you sign up for the on-line service?

And so we now have "the cloud".

Do you know why they want everything in "the Cloud"? So you can't hold it. So you can't give the book to someone else. So you can't share the newspaper. You pay for it and you use it, but anything else is Piracy!

You know, like how Blackbeard the pirate would capture an English vessel and board the ship, killing every last man, woman and child so he could... make a copy of the cargo. You know... piracy.

And every day they chip away at stuff you can hold, telling you how much better it is this way. And it is better, in many ways. And I hope in the end it turns out for the best. However, I'm not optimistic. Past performance does predict future performance, and the past sucks.

But it doesn't change the fact that Paperbacks will someday be like the Ham radios of today. A hobby.


PS. When was the last time you typed anything without a spellchecker?
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Offline Roxoff

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Re: Is print dead?
« Reply #29 on: July 02, 2013, 04:54:46 AM »
Is this really about the death of 'print'?  There is a big move from paper to other mediums, but the traditional 'book' exists, and will continue while there is demand.  I have an e-ink reader (cost me 30 quid, about $45 US) and its brilliant.  I don't keep my books in 'the cloud' (I have _one_ that I bought of Amazon).  They look like the real thing, and are lighter and easier to read.  But I have the files.  And I have paper books too.  I actually read both - but the e-reader is more convenient and easier to carry around.  I can even read the same books from the same place on my Android tablet too (so I can read in the dark with no extra lights - I don't do this much but it's an extra convenience).

The product with ebooks is the same as the paper books - they're still full blown books, just because they're available in a different format, doesn't make them any less of a 'print'.  The arrival of e-readers and ebooks has made books more available, not less.  There are more books than ever now.  More stories.  More to read.  And that means that we get more crap and more good.  And it's harder for one big distributor to control the market, people can publish and sell their own books if they want.  It actually gets the writers closer to the readers.
« Last Edit: July 02, 2013, 04:56:26 AM by Roxoff »
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Offline Nanshork

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Re: Is print dead?
« Reply #30 on: July 02, 2013, 12:54:40 PM »
It amuses me that your anecdotes are somehow more important than those of anyone else.

Offline dman11235

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Re: Is print dead?
« Reply #31 on: July 02, 2013, 03:56:48 PM »
Quote
Popular Outcry: I read books, therefore, books aren't dead!

Well, I found a four leaf clover, therefore all clovers have four leaves.

"I found a four leaf clover!  Therefore they aren't extinct."  How about that comparison instead?

You keep talking as if poor quality media didn't exist before the internet.  Are you kidding me?  Ever hear of Ed Wood?  He's certainly not a modern creator.  Most music from before the advent of the internet was absolutely atrocious.  We just don't hear it because no one kept any.  Why?  Because it was horrible.  I'm talking all the way back, back to the 1000's.  Even further.  Since the beginning of music as a medium.  In the 50s it's easier to show, because that's when the music industry was controlled by execs, so literally everyone was playing the same stuff, save a few minor changes.  Nowadays, you have anyone uploading their music, but only exec funded stuff and good stuff get out there.  And some stuff that's so bad it's good...or so bad you want to torture people with it (I don't get this one...at all...).  Some examples of less well known bands that are great: Handsome Boy Modeling School (and anything with Dan the Automator), Cold War Kids, Blackalicious.  I can't think of any more right now because the rest I'm thinking of are pretty well known, like Black Keys, White Stripes, Ranconteurs, Gorillaz (like i said, Dan the Automator), etc. etc.  Books are just the same.  Is there terrible stuff today?  Yeah, totally.  Is there good stuff?  Absolutely.  Things weren't better before today, it's just that only the good stuff survived.  I mean, the Romans made fart jokes.  How about the dreaded video game?  Comparing a video game to a book would be stupid.  They are two very different mediums.  For one, a video game is sooo much more immersive.  The story though, let's look at the quality of storytelling and story, shall we?  Well, you've got your CoDs and your Halos and your Mass Effects.  Bad, mediocre, and good.  So that range exists, even in the dreaded video game.

Spell check: seriously?  You're ranting about freaking spell check?  Not sure if you realize this, but people use "spell check" all the time when writing things on paper too.  It's called an editor.  People make mistakes.  Why not use a tool to help catch things like typos?  I haven't been keeping track, but I've accidentally hit keys at least 10 times wrong, and not noticed until spell check noticed I spelled it "havne't" at the beginning of this sentence.  Wait, why am I defending this?  I mean really, it doesn't need defending.

Okay, now your tests.  Turn on the TV and count to jump cuts.  I'm....not sure what this is supposed to prove, but okay.  I choose Firefly.  Hmm, I'm going over a minute between cuts at some points.....is that good or bad?  I mean seriously, sicne when is a cut a bad thing?  Okay, how about an old movie?  Citizen Kane.  Opening scene....guy's alone on his deathbed....says "Rosebud".....after he's dead, nurse walks in.....jump to newspaper headlines "final word was Rosebud".....wait, how did they know that?  No one was with him!  That's some shoddy storytelling if you ask me.  Or The Cosby Show, they cut as much as Firefly or any number of shows today.  Anyways, you won't get me defending shaky cam.  It's horrible.  There are very few instances where it is useful.  I can think of one: District 9 was a movie shot like a documentary.  There was supposed to be a guy holding the camera.  And when they had him doing interviews, it was stable, like it was an actual interview.  Imagine that?  Actually paying attention to detail?  I thought that didn't happen anymore?  I also won't be defending all works of today.  Because I recognize that some are terrible.  Given 50-100 years, only the mediocre or better ones will remain.  1000?  Only the good ones.

Quote
If print isn't dying, why are there less reporters now then ever? Why are newspapers closing down, going to four day a week schedules? Why are TV stations no longer maintaining news teams and only having anchors? They are sub-contracting out their news sources. Multiple stations share the same reporting team in many areas. Why?

Because paper news is outdated.  They are adapting.  Well, some are.  24-hour news channels are going away, and that's a GOOD THING.  Those things killed news.  And now that they're going away, we can get the periodic news back, where we only get news that's actually happening, rather than talking about the same thing over and over again.  The internet is making that happen.  Go back to the 50s, 60s, and 70s.  How many news agencies were there on a national level?  There were three broadcasters.  Three.  Now there are countless, and they have too many reporters.  Too many, they aren't doing it because they hate news and language and intelligence, but because they got too big.  Yes I'm ignoring newspapers, but I think this illustrates the point better since I'm not looking at multiple variables.  Because seriously, there are a ton of variables at play, and where you see an end to intellectualism, I see a blooming intellectual movement.  You just need to get away from outdated thinking in order to see it.  You know, outdated thinking like "only printed books are viable information".  And thinking like only one variable at a time can operate on a system.

Quote
*rants on pirates and stuff*

I'm....not even going to touch this.  Wow.

And Nan?  Thanks for the ninja ;)

Oh, and one last thing.  Every time someone says "language is getting worse/dying/not intelligent/etc.", a kitten is punched.  Especially when they are talking about English.
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Offline awaken_D_M_golem

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Re: Is print dead?
« Reply #32 on: July 02, 2013, 03:59:55 PM »
My kitty avatar is easily amused.


Print is certainly on a long tail decline. 
And a faster drop in some places/themes than others.

GM is not a car company anymore, it's a
Very Big Bank with a legacy attached to cars.

Same idea, Newspapers are variant advertising techniques
with a legacy of slightly above average non-ad writing.
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Offline awaken_D_M_golem

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Re: Is print dead?
« Reply #33 on: July 02, 2013, 04:05:54 PM »
As an aside about Spelling ... I've a background of
family teachers with English+fundy! Spelling tendencies.
It's more important that it's spelled correctly than what it said.
Yeah that kind.
I was dyslexic, and they couldn't hack that; either that it
existed or that they couldn't fix it.  But only ouch on me.

Here's a well thought out example of how bad English Spelling is:
http://www.spellingsociety.org/index.php/home/history-of-spelling/why-is-english-spelling-exceptionally-irregular
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Offline dither

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Re: Is print dead?
« Reply #34 on: July 03, 2013, 10:56:44 AM »
I work at a company that is in the publishing industry and ... print is not dying. Duh?

Anyone? Anyone? Anyone else in the publishing industry?


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Offline zugschef

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Re: Is print dead?
« Reply #35 on: July 03, 2013, 01:07:28 PM »
Analog material outlasts several centuries, if not thousands of years.
Digital copies and media go in the trash after maybe 20-30 years.
« Last Edit: July 03, 2013, 01:08:59 PM by zugschef »

Offline awaken_D_M_golem

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Re: Is print dead?
« Reply #36 on: July 03, 2013, 03:43:45 PM »
nymag article on State of the News Media 2012
http://nymag.com/daily/intelligencer/2012/03/print-still-slowly-dying-pew-reports.html

Pew Research Center's massive State of the News Media 2013 study,
http://stateofthemedia.org/


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Offline kitep

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Re: Is print dead?
« Reply #37 on: July 04, 2013, 10:59:06 AM »
I work at a company that is in the publishing industry and ... print is not dying. Duh?

Anyone? Anyone? Anyone else in the publishing industry?

I work at the post office.  There's a lot less mail than there used to be.


Offline veekie

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Re: Is print dead?
« Reply #38 on: July 05, 2013, 12:07:01 AM »
So books are still being published and bought, but people are mainly sending instantaneous emails and SMS rather than the time delayed post, except where official documents are concerned(because bureaucracy hadn't caught up to tech yet). Expected.
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Offline dither

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Re: Is print dead?
« Reply #39 on: July 05, 2013, 02:16:47 PM »
I work at a company that is in the publishing industry and ... print is not dying. Duh?

Anyone? Anyone? Anyone else in the publishing industry?

I work at the post office.  There's a lot less mail than there used to be.
My wife worked in a routing center for a couple years, she said the same thing.

...

You know what I was just thinking? You can't beat someone to death with an ebook. As ebooks become more prominent, I think "novelty" doorstopper books will probably soar in value -- particularly among the poorly educated. They will then take their rightful place beside the baseball bat as the most common murder weapon.


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