Author Topic: Monk Damage?  (Read 5191 times)

Offline Gazzien

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Monk Damage?
« on: June 26, 2013, 02:54:39 AM »
So... we can hit 20th-level monk damage at level 7, I think?
Level 7 Monk
Gauntlet of the Talon (Complete Divine, p97) relic, with True Believer Feat (+5 levels, B or S damage, ghost touch, explicitly stacks with...)
Monk's Belt (+5 levels)
Superior Unarmed Strike (+4 Levels)

so... Level 21 Monk damage at level 7, for the cost of two magic items and two feats (SUS + True Believer (Bahamut))... too bad the progression doesn't go epic. I suppose you could grab Beast Strike for +1d8 (as Gauntlet of the Talon gives you 1d8 claws), or Improved Natural Attack for a few extra d8's...

Am I missing something? Or did they just put in items to make monks... almost keep up, maybe, to a vanilla fighter, for a level or two?

Offline SorO_Lost

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Re: Monk Damage?
« Reply #1 on: June 26, 2013, 07:22:23 AM »
Monks outpace Fighters by the 7th level.

But yes, Unarmed Strike with little effort rolls more dice than a Wizard's Fireball. It's one of the reasons their mid-game is significantly higher than the real mundanes.

Offline Demelain

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Re: Monk Damage?
« Reply #2 on: June 26, 2013, 09:27:52 AM »
It's also a pretty good reason to not take more than a few Monk levels (if any). Their best class features are replaced and advanced by items/feats.

Offline Sjappo

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Re: Monk Damage?
« Reply #3 on: June 26, 2013, 10:20:50 AM »
Monks outpace Fighters by the 7th level.

But yes, Unarmed Strike with little effort rolls more dice than a Wizard's Fireball. It's one of the reasons their mid-game is significantly higher than the real mundanes.
I'm so used to monk bashing that I'm a bit surprised to see veteran members endorse the monk. I've seen Soro speak up twice now. What changed this? Why is 2d10 base damage enough to overcome medium bab, MAD, medium HP and non synergizing class features?
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Offline Demelain

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Re: Monk Damage?
« Reply #4 on: June 26, 2013, 10:32:44 AM »
I don't think I'd call it endorsement of actually taking monk. When the topic is "melee damage," the monk is relevant and not bad at all. It's easy to max out the unarmed progression early using items, then using size-increases it can be bumped up further to, for example, 12d8 (colossal). I'm told there are progressions for "colossal+" but do not know where to go for them.
It doesn't change that the class is poor overall, or that past 6 it becomes particularly bad. But it (unarmed strike) IS an easily optimized weapon.

Offline Sinfire Titan

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Re: Monk Damage?
« Reply #5 on: June 26, 2013, 11:18:29 AM »
Monks outpace Fighters by the 7th level.

But yes, Unarmed Strike with little effort rolls more dice than a Wizard's Fireball. It's one of the reasons their mid-game is significantly higher than the real mundanes.
I'm so used to monk bashing that I'm a bit surprised to see veteran members endorse the monk. I've seen Soro speak up twice now. What changed this? Why is 2d10 base damage enough to overcome medium bab, MAD, medium HP and non synergizing class features?

2d10 isn't the Monk's base damage. 28d6 is, and that's actually useful. Most people who optimize the Monk's damage still multiclass out around 4th or 6th level (depending on the build and how much BAB they need), and in the case of Tashalatora Monks they only have 1 or 2 levels at most. The latter makes optimizing unarmed damage trivial with Expansion (and UMDing a wand of Greater Mighty Wallop).

And that's the secret to making the Monk's unarmed damage progression good: Viagra.
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Offline SorO_Lost

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Re: Monk Damage?
« Reply #6 on: June 26, 2013, 12:34:48 PM »
I'm so used to monk bashing that I'm a bit surprised to see veteran members endorse the monk. I've seen Soro speak up twice now. What changed this? Why is 2d10 base damage enough to overcome medium bab, MAD, medium HP and non synergizing class features?
Actually I've spoke up on it a number of times. Mostly in Monk vs threads.

Monk 2 mechanically advertises it's self as a really useful Class dip so I've always sided with that, plus I've cited for years Unarmed is the best weapon in D&D, part of which is owed to how the Monk handles it. If there was a turning point, it'd be Shadow Blend which got my attention that Monk doesn't end at the 2nd level.

When you get into generic vague numbers Monk holds up ok at low levels. Like at level 2 the Monk is behind a point in BAB and is using a 1d6 Quarterstaff rather than the 2d6 Greatsword. It's a -1/-3.5 loss, but Invisible Fist awards +2 to Attack and it's vs Flat-Footed, plus FoB's 2nd attack. During the Monk's peak he surpasses the other mundanes by as early as the 2nd level. By 6th level the Monk generally out damages the Barbarian, this is due to the fact without Flaws Classes like the Monk and Fighter augment their Shock Trooper numbers with multipliers like Battle Jump and Leap Attack that unlike Frenzy are sustained throughout the day. Later on? Unarmed does a wtflolzpwnt to the game creating a zero comparison with offense.

Defense favors the Monk later on. For two and a half reasons actually. The first is that while early on equipment provides a huge boost in AC, later on your AC is primarily composed of magical effects. Magical effects the Monk can obtain. Secondly, armor is static, a +8 bonus from Full Plate is +8 at level 1 and level 20 (recall the +5 enhance can be applied to anything). Monk on the other hand has his uncapped Dexterity Modifier, plus his Wisdom Modifier, plus an additional +5. The second reasons is AC is worthless against Spells and SLAs that higher Cr monsters almost always have so the effectiveness of AC detracts as the game goes on. Enter Shadow Blend. Unless bypassed with an effect like Blindsight Total-Concealment negates AoOs being taken against you and no Spellcaster can target you with a Spell. And without effects like Mindsight, Blindsense, or Scent a 5ft Step after attacking creates more possible points to attack than Mirror Image does. And technically, the 7th level isn't the last improvement the Monk obtains. Blink at the 9th level is. A 9th level Monk has a chance, no matter how small it's a chance, to ignore game ending spells like Blasphemy. The Monk is playing in a caster's realm of defense.

The 3rd part is utility. None of the "mundanes" stand out here honestly. But you'd be surprised at how useful Invisibility/Total-Concealment can turn anyone into a scout/thief.

Offline nijineko

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Re: Monk Damage?
« Reply #7 on: June 26, 2013, 02:42:43 PM »
depending on the options, and if one allows the weapon size damage chart to either extend or to uses epic progression, a monk's unarmed damage will easily hit 80d8 - 100+d8 before 20th level.

Offline Gazzien

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Re: Monk Damage?
« Reply #8 on: June 26, 2013, 02:53:51 PM »
There isn't an epic progression for damage, though.... Unless it's not on the SRD? SRD epic monk says damage doesn't increase after 20...

Offline linklord231

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Re: Monk Damage?
« Reply #9 on: June 26, 2013, 04:16:37 PM »
There isn't an epic progression for damage, though.... Unless it's not on the SRD? SRD epic monk says damage doesn't increase after 20...

You're not progressing the Monk UAS damage values past 20, you're getting them to 20 and then using size increases to hit as if you're a Colossal (or bigger) 20th level monk.  The table for that is on DMG pg 28.
I'm not arguing, I'm explaining why I'm right.

Offline Sjappo

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Re: Monk Damage?
« Reply #10 on: June 26, 2013, 04:26:55 PM »
depending on the options, and if one allows the weapon size damage chart to either extend or to uses epic progression, a monk's unarmed damage will easily hit 80d8 - 100+d8 before 20th level.
The damage progression tables are a bit speculative as far as I know. And others can play the colossal++ game as well. They lag behind due to the lower starting damage. BTW how do you get from 2d10 base damage to 12d8 colossol damage to 26d6 as base damage. Not seeing it.

So monk should be tier 4 then? If it can outdamage a Barbarian an is more versatile than other mundanes it should be at least T4, right?

Now I go and Google all those feats and whatnot I'm not familiar with.

Edit: started out as a reply to nijineko and ended up as a general reply to thing read in the tread. Nijineko, my comments are not directed at you per se.
« Last Edit: June 26, 2013, 04:28:37 PM by Sjappo »
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Offline Sinfire Titan

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Re: Monk Damage?
« Reply #11 on: June 26, 2013, 04:45:19 PM »
depending on the options, and if one allows the weapon size damage chart to either extend or to uses epic progression, a monk's unarmed damage will easily hit 80d8 - 100+d8 before 20th level.
The damage progression tables are a bit speculative as far as I know. And others can play the colossal++ game as well. They lag behind due to the lower starting damage. BTW how do you get from 2d10 base damage to 12d8 colossol damage to 26d6 as base damage. Not seeing it.

So monk should be tier 4 then? If it can outdamage a Barbarian an is more versatile than other mundanes it should be at least T4, right?

Now I go and Google all those feats and whatnot I'm not familiar with.

Edit: started out as a reply to nijineko and ended up as a general reply to thing read in the tread. Nijineko, my comments are not directed at you per se.

Tier-wise, no. It takes quite a bit of optimization to get to the higher damage values, and these things are not something a beginner would pick up on until it gets pointed out. Typically. Assuming all optimization is equal (be it high or low), the Barbarian is going to beat the Monk at most things combat-related.
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Offline SorO_Lost

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Re: Monk Damage?
« Reply #12 on: June 26, 2013, 09:13:49 PM »
Tier wise is a whole other discussion. I believe it's understood I think little of JaronK and find his list insulting.

To ramble a few example oddities, Monk doesn't appear on it, the Barbarian who struggles to keep up with other mundanes damage wise and doesn't have any other f*cking trick is listed as being as versatile as a Rogue. Dungeoncrasher Fighter at some point was listed higher than a Shock Trooper Fighter despite dealing less. Why does the CW Samurai with Impervious Command deserve special notation as being comparable to any, that means including Sword of the Arcane Order, Paladin? Why is the motherfracking Expert even sharing the same space as a 9th level spellcasting Class? And so on. Why is there even a separate listing for ACFs or "with this Feat it can do X!"?

I mean let's *really* get into this for a split second. Tiers is primarily defined as versatile, higher you are more options you have. Except, when you as JK his thoughts on Barbarian his reply is the Barbarian is good at his job. He has one role and he does it well. What kind of f*cking excuse is that? The Healer has one job, heal people, and it f*cking does that in spades. Not to mention the Healer has social capabilities and can solo Traps all day long, did you know when one Feat it obtains the ability to Cast Shapechange? How versatile is that? Answer? Less than a Samurai.

You need to understand this. JK did not write Tiers as a guide. He isn't trying to enlighten you. He isn't trying to improve D&D. He wrote Tiers as a rebuttal. Rogue is Tier 3 because as *I* defined Tiers it is Tier 3. Not enough for you? That's fine, 339, GitP, ENWorld and BG didn't like that answer either. Hence six months later and JK posts rebuttal #2, when he did Tiers he set up four Encounter styles and ran each Class through it (despite not knowing half the classes in D&D). Recent GitP thread in the spring or so has JK admitting he doesn't even know what the encounters are. Funny, I still got notes from a game ten years ago, you'd think something I spent so much effort weighing and evaluating crunched numbers in would be laying around. Anyway, this second rebuttal was a shitty as the first. One example does stand out. How does your Class help a town defend against an Orc horde? If your JK, your Rogue assassinates their king. This A) Does nothing to help the town prepare for the Orcs. B) Does nothing to the infrastructure if your read Orc lore. C) It is fundamentally the Rogue attempting to solo the entire Encounter. Which is exactly how 90% of the other Classes would do it. This measurement test fundamentally keys off who has Craft & Diplomacy as Class Skills and whom can cheat things by summoning a new stone wall around the place that smashes people. The Barbarian doesn't rack up extra points because it has the lowest kill count among mundanes, unless you're J/K.

And this isn't the first time stuff like this as flown around. BG has threads on this, I've already pointed out and had people agree with me on the Barbarian before. I've seen others agree on Fighter, Healer, etc. Over on BG Plz even created an updated tier listing that while massively flawed, does list several left out Classes and hold on to your seat here: Plz took opinions on the forum into consideration when building his list. amazing huh? Anyway. We've had partial updates, we have had alternatives. We have had better versions of Tier listings that isn't done by a guy sucking his own cock. Hell, I even made my own list, guess what's it's based off of. Spellcasting. Love to see you argue how that isn't relevant or accurate.

So why don't they persist? Well, MMX has a whole has no need for them. No one cared to move them over, because no one at MMX uses them. It's a crash course introduction for people at GitP. The only Tier thread to get moved here was JK's thread. By JK him self. And that was renamed from "Tiers for D&D" to "JaronK's Tier list". And it's the original post that refuses to acknowledge updates, corrections, additional insight, or any community based contribution. Because it's not a guide, it's a rebuttal. JK is arguing X is Y, because he defined Z.

And you people fucking stickied him trolling you.
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Offline Sjappo

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Re: Monk Damage?
« Reply #13 on: June 27, 2013, 04:05:33 AM »
@Soro. WOW. Didn't meen to send you off man. As flawed as these comparissons invariably are they give people like me a baseline to work from. Let me explain. Caveat. English is a second langauge for me. I'm struggling to find the right words. So please bear with me.

I've been away from the hobby since the advent of 3.0. I started up a few years ago. In that time I've build 2 PC's I've played and a few handful of NPC's and monsters with classlevels for an one-shot I DMed. I am in no way an expert on optimization. But lists like the tier system give me a baseline. It helps me to take the first step in understanding why the weapon finess DEX based monk in our group was struggling to do damage. And why his STR based unarmed swordsage is doing so much better. And why basically just fucking around with a Cloistered Cleric dabbling in Crusader is not a problem. My PC is still viable.

I can see the list is not for you. Or other experienced players. You've got your own insight and your own list. Fair enough. Maybe your list is better. But this list is good enough for me. As soon as I can intelligently discuss with you the merits of a STP erudite vs. an artificer I will have my own list as well.
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Offline FlaminCows

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Re: Monk Damage?
« Reply #14 on: June 27, 2013, 04:40:57 AM »
Interesting. SorO, could you link to these other tier lists? It would be interesting to see the differences, and perhaps use as a reference later.

Offline SorO_Lost

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Re: Monk Damage?
« Reply #15 on: June 27, 2013, 02:01:48 PM »
Interesting. SorO, could you link to these other tier lists? It would be interesting to see the differences, and perhaps use as a reference later.
#1: Plz's list: brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php?topic=11714
(click to show/hide)
#2 Ubernoob & Tshern's work: http://brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php?topic=2252.0
(click to show/hide)
#3, I can list my self too: Page 1 of the Tier thread here.
(click to show/hide)
#4 Prime32's Sig: http://brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php?topic=12678.msg428894#msg428894
(click to show/hide)


And I randomly clicked around on a pages in BG's Tier thread and I want to share these two finds.
Page 48 has a nice comment: http://brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php?topic=5293.msg440883#msg440883
(click to show/hide)
Page 36, a second opinion: http://brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php?topic=5293.msg390963#msg390963
(click to show/hide)

And also Grilled's post gets a mention: http://brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php?topic=5070.0
(click to show/hide)

And there is nothing stopping you from making a new thread. As noted, progression in this area was set back.

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Found everything using google and tried limiting my self to 30mins of poking around (including post formatting). Kind of went back and looked for Prime's Sig which ate more time through. Then reformatted the post. Oh were did the time go. Anyway, point being I spent less than an hour to present that list. Imagine what you could find if you actually researched the topic.
« Last Edit: June 27, 2013, 02:11:28 PM by SorO_Lost »