Author Topic: It Came From Drive-Thru RPG: Stats for Jesus  (Read 12943 times)

Offline Libertad

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It Came From Drive-Thru RPG: Stats for Jesus
« on: June 28, 2013, 07:21:07 PM »
Stats for Jesus

Who's your buddy?

The portrayal of real-world religious figures has always been a thorny issue in games, but it has happened.  Long-dead pantheons run into no trouble, while surviving religious orders naturally require more care.  The original Deities & Demigods ran into some controversy with stat blocks for Hindu deities, while the Greyhawk campaign setting had Al'Akbar, a Lawful Good deity explicitly based off of Islam (which you don't really hear about much anymore).

The author of Game Stats for Jesus asserts that a society of Western and Judeo-Christian values led to a sort of 'untouchable' status for God and Jesus, that they're beyond game stats due to omnipotence and omniscience.  Other divine figures such as Brahma, who are technically equally omnipotent, do not get this treatment.

The author uses the writings of both the Bible and early Christian scholars, asserting that the earliest practitioners were not monotheist (our God's the only God), but monolatrist (God exists, but other deities are either lesser beings or demons in disguise).  Additionally, Biblical passages pointed to various depictions of Jesus' abilities, and that Christian denominations have centuries worth of debate as to His nature.

Due to this, the author created several stat blocks to represent various popular interpretations of the Messiah.

Unitarian/Jefferson Bible Jesus


Thomas Jefferson believed that Jesus existed and that there might have been a creator for the universe, but he was a Deist.  Basically, deism is the belief that reason and science are sufficient to determine the existence of God, and that certain Biblical values such as miracles and scriptural inerrancy were false.  Basically, God is a non-interventionist Creator who set into motion the workings of the universe and sat back to watch.

Thomas Jefferson owned a Bible, but he cut out all the parts he didn't agree with, notably the blatantly supernatural passages.

Unitarian Universalism is a Christian denomination believes that God is one person, opposed to the traditional Holy Trinity.  In regards to Jesus, they believe that he was a prophet and in a sense the "son" of God, but not God himself.

The section opens up with a passage from Excerpts from the Correspondence of Thomas Jefferson, where he talks about how many religious institutions have added superstitious baggage to Jesus' teachings, and that it would be good to strip off all this and focus only on the words of Jesus himself.

(click to show/hide)

Jesus, sans supernatural powers and miracles.  He's incredibly skilled, knowledgeable, and physically and mentally fit, but that's the extent of his abilities.


Jesus, Mortal Ministry Version

This section opens up with Luke 5:17-23, where Jesus heals a blind man, and the Pharisees witness his preaching and take him to be a blasphemer.

(click to show/hide)


I take this stat block to be Jesus in his "mortal" life, before he was crucified and resurrected.

I like the touch of unique special abilities, and his violent hatred for money changers.  I notice that this Jesus isn't very smart in either raw Intelligence or Knowledge, and his skill set isn't very good.

By looking up "Mortal Ministry" on Google, the first results I get are all links to Latter-Day Saints websites.  Perhaps Nijineko can fill me in on this?  The product otherwise doesn't make any mention of Mormonism.
« Last Edit: June 28, 2013, 07:52:47 PM by Libertad »

Offline Amechra

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Re: It Came From Drive-Thru RPG: Stats for Jesus
« Reply #1 on: June 28, 2013, 10:15:44 PM »
I kinda disagree with the Mortal Ministry one:

Jesus was, at least in my copy of the Bible, rather skilled. He definitely had higher than a +4 for his Craft (Carpentry) checks (he was raised a carpenter, and did that until he was in his late 20s, at least. You don't work for that long without being a bit more skilled than a +4.)

EDIT: Heh, I actually think that Jesus could do with Vow of Poverty (the 3.5 version).
"There is happiness for those who accept their fate, there is glory for those that defy it."

"Now that everyone's so happy, this is probably a good time to tell you I ate your parents."

Offline linklord231

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Re: It Came From Drive-Thru RPG: Stats for Jesus
« Reply #2 on: June 28, 2013, 10:22:38 PM »
I kinda disagree with the Mortal Ministry one:

Jesus was, at least in my copy of the Bible, rather skilled. He definitely had higher than a +4 for his Craft (Carpentry) checks (he was raised a carpenter, and did that until he was in his late 20s, at least. You don't work for that long without being a bit more skilled than a +4.)

That was my first thought too, but you don't get very many skill points as a Cleric with a negative Int mod. 
I don't understand why they gave Him Heavy Armor Proficiency and Improved Unarmed Strike as feats though.  Or why he has an 18 Str but only an 8 Int.  I would have gone 10 Str, 16 Int.  After all, he was supposed to be able to outwit the Sanhedrin at their own games, but needed help carrying the cross up the hill (understandably so, but that still doesn't strike me as Str 18 material). 
I'm not arguing, I'm explaining why I'm right.

Offline Libertad

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Re: It Came From Drive-Thru RPG: Stats for Jesus
« Reply #3 on: June 28, 2013, 10:37:28 PM »
Noticed that Mortal Ministry Jesus casts Remove Curse/Blindness-Deafness/Disease as 1st level spells.

I assume that this is an error missed in editing.  Or it could be meant to represent Jesus' super-healing powers (if so, it would've made mention of this).

Offline Libertad

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Re: It Came From Drive-Thru RPG: Stats for Jesus
« Reply #4 on: June 29, 2013, 01:00:09 AM »
Jesus on the Day of Judgment

The Day of Judgment, more commonly known as the Last Judgment, is the final and eternal judgment of all living humans in every nation by God.  It draws inspiration from the Bible itself, which describes Jesus as separating all the people by his right and left hands.  Those on his right are worthy of entering the Kingdom of Heaven, those on his left are cast into fire.

(click to show/hide)

I can tell that they're going for the holy warrior angle here.  I don't think that this really fits.  Based upon the Biblical sources linked, it did not make mention of Jesus preparing for battle or using violence as part of his Judgment.   Some of the offensive spells make sense for the wrath of God (Storm of Vengeance, Earthquake, etc.) but stuff like Blade Barrier, Power Word Kill, Prismatic Spray, and Full Plate Armor and a Flaming Greatsword on top of that clearly portray him as a holy death machine!

Oh well, at least this Jesus is smart and can fly worth a damn (yes, Fly is a skill in Pathfinder).  He's also got a kick-ass Stealth modifier; don't know how that fits with his character, but this stat block doesn't come off as the most authentic one we've seen.


Post-Tribulation Prince of Peace Jesus

Basically, there is a belief of Christian eschatology which posits that Jesus will return to Earth a second time during the End Time, or Great Tribulation.  This draws heavily upon the Book of Revelations, where God comes to Earth to live among the people.

(click to show/hide)

Check out that Charisma score.

Now this stat block makes a lot more sense.  It's built around a concrete theme: complete and utter pacifism.  In God's New Kingdom, there is no more violence, pain, and suffering, and Prince of Peace Jesus has abilities specifically tailored to eliminate these sources of harm.

His feat selection feels uninspired and limited, like the authors just said "let's just load him up with defensive stuff."  I'd have gone for Leadership, Skill Focus (Diplomacy, Heal), and various healing and social stuff.

His Diplomacy modifier is wrong (+40), at odds with his Total Charisma (which has +100 if it has game stats at all).

And that's it.  That's all the Jesuses.

Final Thoughts

Like the GOP Bestiary, I felt that they should have included more examples.  Some of the design decisions for the stat blocks felt off, and I was sort of hoping that they'd go more for "alternate" Jesus interpretations in the sense of the Jefferson Bible (by far the most unique and interesting take in this product), but I figure one can only go so far.

I can't really see this being used in most games; it's really just a novelty purchase, but it's honest about what it's selling.

Would I recommend it?  Well, aside from the stat blocks it has a foreward for the design decision and some Biblical and Jefferson quotes for each Jesus.  3 bucks is chump change either way, so if you like the idea and can spare the cash, support the creator if you're that kind of guy/girl.

Next time, The Book of Harlots!
« Last Edit: June 29, 2013, 01:27:03 AM by Libertad »

Offline PsyBomb

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Re: It Came From Drive-Thru RPG: Stats for Jesus
« Reply #5 on: June 29, 2013, 01:46:10 AM »
It's nitpicky, but Jesus was known to have spoken at least four languages (Aramaic, Hebrew, Latin, and Greek). Of the three depictions so far, I think I like the Jeffersonian one best for his living stat block (though why his Appraise and Dungeoneering got boosted so high I will never know, he should have had Oratory in there as well).

Personally, I could picture him statted as an Aasimar Expert 3/Cloistered Cleric 7+ with well-rolled stats and still be able to adhere to Biblical depictions as told in the four Gospels (personal preference for Matthew and Mark), assuming an act of direct divine intervention for the Resurrection or the Shroud of Turin as a one-time-use magic item.

Starting Stat Block (35-Point Buy):
STR 12
DEX 10 (dump stat for this build)
CON 12
INT 16
WIS 18 (16+racial bonus)
CHA 18 (16+racial bonus)

Assuming Celestial can be taken to mean Hebrew and the Common language at the time Aramaic in his region, he only requires 14 Int (which can be EASILY assumed) to have Latin and Greek picked up as well. As an Expert, his class skills would have included Craft (Carpentry), Knowledge (Religion, Engineering), Diplomacy, Profession (shopkeeper) and Perception. He could have picked 3 more, likely Intimidate, Appraise, and Know (Geography). All young Jewish boys studied the Torah extensively, and of the listed skills he had the points to keep them all maxed except for the last 3, which he would have dropped just a couple of points into each. Probably have the rest of his points scattered a bit; he was noted to be precocious and loved learning, so would likely have taken several odd knowledges.

Upon the revelation of his birth, the records go vague for nearly two decades. Simple enough to assume that direct divine tutelage could have gotten him the Cleric levels. He needs 7 as a minimum assuming the miracles are true, as at least one is represented by a 4th level spell (his healing of the blind and sick later seems to be in line with a Restoration). I call it the Cloistered variant just because of what we had seen him do (spellcasting was not very frequent, and he is seen as more skillful and knowledgeable... and never wears armor). At level 7 he would have gotten Leadership, first stat rise goes to Wisdom and the rest to Charisma.

Not going to go into more detail here just yet, since it's nearly midnight and I'm sleepy enough to make major mistakes in the interpretation. This delivers the gist of it, though
« Last Edit: June 29, 2013, 01:49:22 AM by PsyBomb »

Offline brujon

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Re: It Came From Drive-Thru RPG: Stats for Jesus
« Reply #6 on: June 29, 2013, 02:00:37 AM »
To be even more Nitpicky, Clerics are scholars of Religion, and they actually study really hard in order to get their favors. Jesus, on the other hand, is a chosen. IMO, this screams Favored Soul instead of Cleric. Though i can see why Cleric, because mechanically it's a better choice.
"All the pride and pleasure of the world, mirrored in the dull consciousness of a fool, are poor indeed compared with the imagination of Cervantes writing his Don Quixote in a miserable prison" - Schopenhauer, Aphorisms: The Wisdom of Life

Offline FlaminCows

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Re: It Came From Drive-Thru RPG: Stats for Jesus
« Reply #7 on: June 29, 2013, 07:19:31 AM »
To nitpick your nitpick a bit, it is possible to be a Cleric with zero ranks in Knowledge (Religion) and an Intelligence score of 3, so I'm not sure if they really have to study hard or they just have a tendency to do so. Jesus, on the other hand, did display knowledge that impressed the priests, even at a young age (see Luke 2:46, 47). Favoured Souls can do that too, though, so it can go either way.

Offline Libertad

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Re: It Came From Drive-Thru RPG: Stats for Jesus
« Reply #8 on: June 29, 2013, 03:10:36 PM »
And just for fun, I made stats for Supply Side Jesus.

CR 11
XP 12,800
Human Bard 11
NE Medium Humanoid

Init +4; Senses Perception +14
AC 19 (+3 armor, +3 natural, +3 deflection), touch 13, flat-footed 16
hp 79
Fort +6 Ref +10 Will +12
Speed 30 feet
Space 5 feet Reach 5 feet
Melee Unarmed Strike +8 (1d3 non-lethal); Supply Side Jesus avoids combat, preferring to let hired minions do the dirty work

Class Features

Bardic Knowledge (+5)

Bardic Performance (21 rounds per day), can start as a move action; countersong, distraction, fascinate, inspire competence, inspire courage, suggestion, dirge of doom, inspire greatness

Versatile Performance (Act, Dance, and Oratory)

Lore Master (2/day)

Jack of all Trades

Spells Per Day: 1st: 7; 2nd: 6; 3rd: 6; 4th: 3
Spells Known: 0: Dancing Lights, Daze, Detect Magic, Ghost Sound, Mage Hand, Prestidigitation; 1st: Charm Person, Confusion (Lesser), Cure Light Wounds, Expeditious Retreat, Hypnotism, Silent Image; 2nd: Calm Emotions, Cure Moderate Wounds, Delay Poison, Enthrall, Suggestion; 3rd: Cure Serious Wounds, Glibness, Good Hope, Remove Curse; 4th: Modify Memory, Neutralize Person, Secure Shelter

Str 10 Dex 10 Con 12 Int 14 Wis 10 Cha 20
Base Atk +8 CMB +8 CMD 18

Feats

Extra Performance (x2), Improved Initiative, Iron Will, Lingering Performance, Skill Focus (Perform-Act, Perform-Oratory),

Skills

Appraise +8, Escape Artist +14, Knowledge (History, Nobility, Religion) +19, Linguistics +7, Perception +12, Perform (Act, Oratory) +25, Profession (Huckster) +12, Sleight of Hand +14, Spellcraft +14, Use Magic Device +15; substitutes Bluff and Disguise with Perform (Act), and Diplomacy and Sense Motive with Perform (Oratory)

Languages

Aramaic, Greek, Hebrew, Latin, one other

Gear

Amulet of Natural Armor +3, Bracers of Armor +3, Ring of Protection +3, Robe of Resistance +3, Rod of Splendor,  lavish estate, thousands of gold pieces worth of luxury goods
« Last Edit: June 29, 2013, 03:12:56 PM by Libertad »

Offline awaken_D_M_golem

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Re: It Came From Drive-Thru RPG: Stats for Jesus
« Reply #9 on: July 02, 2013, 05:17:36 PM »
DvR of 1, is a minimum.  That's assuming the various Divine part / Man part
arguments from the Ecumenical Councils matter.  And then a throw a dart
at a heresy dart board, as to the "exact" non-standard definition of Divine/Man.

Lawful Neutral is a normal alignment for someone following boatloads of laws.
The Jews were not necessarily accepted as "good" people by the societies
around them ... which would also allow Lawful Evil to be a perceived alignment.
I'm not suggesting it's true, I'm saying that's how the D&D universe takes it.

No Divinations.  No Sorcery.  No Necro (excepting end times stuff).
Vow Of Poverty/Peace is obvious, that eliminates lots of other things.
Your codpiece is a mimic.

Offline linklord231

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Re: It Came From Drive-Thru RPG: Stats for Jesus
« Reply #10 on: July 02, 2013, 07:12:32 PM »
DvR of 1, is a minimum.  That's assuming the various Divine part / Man part
arguments from the Ecumenical Councils matter.  And then a throw a dart
at a heresy dart board, as to the "exact" non-standard definition of Divine/Man.

Lawful Neutral is a normal alignment for someone following boatloads of laws.
The Jews were not necessarily accepted as "good" people by the societies
around them ... which would also allow Lawful Evil to be a perceived alignment.
I'm not suggesting it's true, I'm saying that's how the D&D universe takes it.

No Divinations.  No Sorcery.  No Necro (excepting end times stuff).
Vow Of Poverty/Peace is obvious, that eliminates lots of other things


In 3.5, i would agree with most of that. But I don't think PF uses DvR, and VoP(eace) is significantly different. I don't think Peace and Nonviolence exist at all.
« Last Edit: July 03, 2013, 06:54:00 PM by linklord231 »
I'm not arguing, I'm explaining why I'm right.

Offline veekie

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Re: It Came From Drive-Thru RPG: Stats for Jesus
« Reply #11 on: July 03, 2013, 04:22:51 AM »
PF doesn't have Divine Ranks yeah, unless it's in some third party stuff.
Everything is edible. Just that there are things only edible once per lifetime.
It's a god-eat-god world.

Procrastination is the thief of time; Year after year it steals, till all are fled,
And to the mercies of a moment leaves; The vast concerns of an eternal scene.

Offline awaken_D_M_golem

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Re: It Came From Drive-Thru RPG: Stats for Jesus
« Reply #12 on: July 03, 2013, 03:27:31 PM »
So ... umm ...  :??? ... 3.5e wotc Core, is 3rd party to PF ?


 :)
Your codpiece is a mimic.

Offline Gazzien

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Re: It Came From Drive-Thru RPG: Stats for Jesus
« Reply #13 on: July 03, 2013, 03:45:11 PM »
So ... umm ...  :??? ... 3.5e wotc Core, is 3rd party to PF ?


 :)
I believe so, yes.

Although, in reference to Epic, it does just say...
... Rules for epic-level play like this exist in numerous products that are compatible with the Pathfinder Roleplaying Game, ...
... seeming to imply they commend using 3.5 things? But that's just how I read it.

Offline veekie

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Re: It Came From Drive-Thru RPG: Stats for Jesus
« Reply #14 on: July 03, 2013, 04:11:07 PM »
Basically it means if you're doing epic play you COULD just loot the old stuff because god knows they aren't making new.
Everything is edible. Just that there are things only edible once per lifetime.
It's a god-eat-god world.

Procrastination is the thief of time; Year after year it steals, till all are fled,
And to the mercies of a moment leaves; The vast concerns of an eternal scene.

Offline TravelLog

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Re: It Came From Drive-Thru RPG: Stats for Jesus
« Reply #15 on: July 04, 2013, 05:28:13 PM »
GOP bestiary? Please tell me it has stats for Newt Gingrich...
Too much sanity may be madness and the maddest of all, to see life as it is and not as it should be.
--Miguel de Cervantes

Offline Libertad

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Re: It Came From Drive-Thru RPG: Stats for Jesus
« Reply #16 on: July 04, 2013, 06:06:06 PM »
GOP bestiary? Please tell me it has stats for Newt Gingrich...

Yes.
« Last Edit: July 04, 2013, 08:57:40 PM by Libertad »

Offline TravelLog

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Re: It Came From Drive-Thru RPG: Stats for Jesus
« Reply #17 on: July 05, 2013, 02:34:49 AM »
Libertad...I think I love you.   :love
Too much sanity may be madness and the maddest of all, to see life as it is and not as it should be.
--Miguel de Cervantes

Offline Libertad

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Re: It Came From Drive-Thru RPG: Stats for Jesus
« Reply #18 on: July 05, 2013, 10:52:53 PM »
Libertad...I think I love you.   :love

That's good to hear, especially considering that I felt that the review was rather lackluster.  But I did the best that I could in terms of informative content.

Offline bhu

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Re: It Came From Drive-Thru RPG: Stats for Jesus
« Reply #19 on: July 06, 2013, 12:59:06 AM »
Was nice review.  You're kinder and less blunt than I am as a reviewer.  I once reviewed an Andy Dick film as being an enjoyable experience assuming your other option was being locked in a turkish prison and forced to eat chocolate frosted rat poop.

My boss loved that one.

Still edited it for publishment tho....  :eh
« Last Edit: July 06, 2013, 01:00:51 AM by bhu »