[DM Advice] Shutting down a melee option

[Nicklance]

I would like to seek help from you fellow DMs.

I am currently running a game where there is this antagonist organization that sends agents after my players. This second encounter with such an agent led to a very boring and protracted fight. One of my players is a grapple specialist that managed to get her attacker in a grapple.

Now this is a good thing because it effectively shuts the attacker down (who was a caster-base), but it still ended up a battle of attrition where both parties deal very piecemeal damage to each other.

Now my problem is, the agent managed to escape with in-game knowledge that one of the protagonists is too damn good with grapples. I have in-game justification to have the organization prepared and ready against her grappling antics. But OOC-wise, should I deny my player this legitimate melee tactic to shut a caster down by making extra precautions in-game against such attacks?

[Raineh Daze]

I'd say yes, but only where this organisation is concerned. After all, if you don't kill an enemy, you can't expect the same tactic to work twice.

[phaedrusxy]

Definitely don't overdo it. As someone who's played grapple specialists, there are plenty of enemies that you either can't or don't want to grapple, especially as the level of the game gets higher. So while you might have some of the elite NPCs of the organization protect themselves with Freedom of Movement (or Heart of Water), leave some bodyguards/mooks/whatever for the grappler to maul, as well. Or just have more than one enemy, period. You can't grapple two at once, after all (barring very specific builds, etc).

[Roxoff]

I'd say yes too - there is nothing wrong with your NPC organisations learning from doing things wrong.  The PCs should really expect that kind of behaviour.  The question then is only the degree they go to for countering grapple specialists.  If they're run by smart people, or those with plenty of resources available, they may counter grapple better than if they don't.  And if they're not so smart, they may expose new weaknesses in other ways if they go all out to counter a grapple attack.

[Jackinthegreen]

Yes, you can definitely play out the organization knowing the character can shut casters down like that.  The trick to making that information meaningful is how you go about showing it.  Sure, you could just have the next caster have a Freedom of Movement spell for the next time, but that's a bit too easy and will likely make your player feel screwed over, unless the player has a good backup tactic that they're also comfortable using.  It's a hard counter, and hard counters are often what make players pissed off at the DM.

So try a soft counter.  Maybe the org is bringing in their own wrestler and fighting fire with fire.  Maybe the next caster will be a summoner and can give your player something to take care of while other party members take out the caster.  If you do go with a grapple creature to counter the player's grappling, don't make it too powerful.  You'll want the player to get some shots in, or at least feel like a good roll can turn the tide instead of thinking the endeavor is pointless.

[Nunkuruji]

Enemies come back with generous amounts of lube applied

[dna1]

Enemies come back with generous amounts of lube applied

lol...

From the player side, it really sucks when you make a Grappler and everything suddenly shuts you down.


But I also recognize the need for some Villains to escape. I would say do it, but do it in creative ways. Like maybe have obstacles, grease spells etc etc. There is plenty of ways to go about it without deliberately flipping the bird to your player.

You could use the Cape of Mounteback as a one time escape. Flight could work... A enemy using Spiderclimb and is up on the wall. Heck throw on a mirror image.. so then at least the Player feels like he has a chance.
Or as Phae suggested, throw in more enemys.

Hope this helps, good luck.

[Roxoff]

Enemies come back with generous amounts of lube applied

What a revolting picture you're painting here    For extra slip, you might want to shave the wizard before coating him in goose fat...

[Roxoff]

From the player side, it really sucks when you make a Grappler and everything suddenly shuts you down.

If the player really has created a one-trick-pony, then they're going to be frustrated on that occasion when they meet something that is good against their trick.  It's one of the reasons why PCs hang around in parties to pool their skills.  They need a plan B, even if it's a pretty rubbish plan B.

[veekie]

From the player side, it really sucks when you make a Grappler and everything suddenly shuts you down.

If the player really has created a one-trick-pony, then they're going to be frustrated on that occasion when they meet something that is good against their trick.  It's one of the reasons why PCs hang around in parties to pool their skills.  They need a plan B, even if it's a pretty rubbish plan B.

As the player in question, the grappling IS plan B(Plan A was contraindicated due to the enemy's durability and offense power coupled to an unlucky debuff). It's just a physically high strength character with natural reach and an Enlarge Person on top.

[kitep]

It sounds like the problem isn't the grappling itself, but that it led to a boring fight.  Instead of having to choose between shutting down his character and being bored, you should invoke the gentleman's agreement and talk to the player about different options.  Find a way where you can both have fun.

OTOH, if grappling really is plan B, then it shouldn't come up that often.  Have the organization prepare against it, let it work against others.

[veekie]

The margin wasn't that big, the +10 from lubing up with Grease would have defeated the grapple handily.

[Bozwevial]

Plus if a few dispels had gone better, grappling would likely never have entered into it. (Also if I hadn't had someone literally break his neck on my porch mid-fight, but that's neither here nor there.)

[NunoM]

An intelligent organization would definitely prepare for the party's tactics, even more so, if the organization is actively hunting the party...
No character alone is prepared for all the tactics and counter-tactics in every situation, that's precisely why they gather as a party.

You have made the "counter-grapples" enemy known to the party, now it's up to the party to come up with other tactics/combos that can drop him fast... Just don't render the tactics they've been using so far completely obsolete! Be sure to drop in some of the "old" enemies , so they can reuse known tactics from time to time.

[Nicklance]

Great arguments guys, thank you all.

Really the reason why I ask this, was because the fight got into a really boring sequence of attrition that kills the excitement.

Hugging someone to death isn't really very heroic or villainous however you look at it. 

[veekie]

Couldn't get enough of an edge to pin and tie up, too debuffed to go for a classic kill...

[phaedrusxy]

Great arguments guys, thank you all.

Really the reason why I ask this, was because the fight got into a really boring sequence of attrition that kills the excitement.

Hugging someone to death isn't really very heroic or villainous however you look at it. 

Not a WWF fan, I take it? 

[Nicklance]

Couldn't get enough of an edge to pin and tie up, too debuffed to go for a classic kill...

You're lucky you aren't considered to be wearing heavy armor or clothing.

[veekie]

Well, I guess in the future they'd come pre-lubricated.

For reference:
Plan A was to go straight in and full attack until it goes down. -6 to Str and Dex nixed that.
Plan B was to grab hold and somehow pound it until some solution can be obtained(swarm poisoning, dispelling the debuff, a high damaging attack going through).
Plan C was to drop her in a hole and then start stuffing monsters into the hole.
Plan D was to drop her into the metal plating pool. Only reason I didn't is a 50/50 chance of Stronger Than Ever.
Plan E was Haste and run away.

[Kasz]

Couldn't get enough of an Edge to pin and tie up, too debuffed to go for a classic kill...

I fixed your post.