Author Topic: Factotum/Chameleon questions: What makes it so good?  (Read 66631 times)

Offline Skevvix

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Re: Factotum/Chameleon questions: What makes it so good?
« Reply #20 on: August 14, 2013, 03:03:46 AM »
When I hear factotum/chameleon, I don't think character optimization, I think perfect storm of poorly-written rules. Factotum and chameleon together are enough to make me break out in hives.  Anyway, assuming someone rewrites the classes so they work, there's not really any synergy between them, they mostly do the same things, chameleon better than factotum.

No synergy?  When I hear Factotum, my first thought is Chameleon (then Swashbuckler  =] )  The best feature of Factotem is that they can do whatever the situation calls for.  And the best of Chameleon?  Yup, do whatever the situation calls for.   
Batman isn't a wizard, he's a factotum/chameleon.

Offline zugschef

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Re: Factotum/Chameleon questions: What makes it so good?
« Reply #21 on: August 14, 2013, 02:55:23 PM »
Could Font of Inspiration only provide that 1 inspiration point to be used, and then it's gone?  Perhaps, but that would be a nearly worthless feat, and one would hope feats are actually meant to be meaningful.  It's okay to not go by RAW, because as players we have the ability, and even obligation, to fill in the blanks where the designers didn't quite get things right.
Yes, it would be a worthless feat if interpreted RAW, but that's not the point, because nobody who wants to use this feat does that. The point is that you then go by RAI and it's totally obvious that exponential/quadratic/triangluar growth is not an intended mechanic in DnD. See the stacking rules and the math on crits.

And I apologize for my peronal attacks. I'm sorry.

Offline Bard

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Re: Factotum/Chameleon questions: What makes it so good?
« Reply #22 on: August 14, 2013, 06:39:43 PM »
Yes, it would be a worthless feat if interpreted RAW, but that's not the point, because nobody who wants to use this feat does that. The point is that you then go by RAI and it's totally obvious that exponential/quadratic/triangluar growth is not an intended mechanic in DnD. See the stacking rules and the math on crits.
You have to admit tho, that most of the feat that add "uses" of a particular class feature do fully stack, wherever they explicitly say it (Extra Turning, Extra Rage, etc for example... most of the well written ones) or they implicitly do (like Eberron's Extra music, that says you can take it multiple times and gives the same bonus), so there's an argument to be made that it MAY fully stack.
There's also to consider the fact that if it stacks as you say, the way they wrote it it's uselessly convoluted, it could have been "You gain an inspiration point. You can take this feat multiple times. Its effect stack." that is the standard wording for most of the other similar feats, so, if RAI is to do that effect, have they wrote that wall of text to explain it?

I'm more inclined to think that the intention behind the feat is for it to fully stack, but it could have written in a better way.
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Offline Jackinthegreen

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Re: Factotum/Chameleon questions: What makes it so good?
« Reply #23 on: August 15, 2013, 01:48:06 AM »
Could Font of Inspiration only provide that 1 inspiration point to be used, and then it's gone?  Perhaps, but that would be a nearly worthless feat, and one would hope feats are actually meant to be meaningful.  It's okay to not go by RAW, because as players we have the ability, and even obligation, to fill in the blanks where the designers didn't quite get things right.
Yes, it would be a worthless feat if interpreted RAW, but that's not the point, because nobody who wants to use this feat does that. The point is that you then go by RAI and it's totally obvious that exponential/quadratic/triangluar growth is not an intended mechanic in DnD. See the stacking rules and the math on crits.

And I apologize for my peronal attacks. I'm sorry.

It is entirely possible that the feat was never meant to interact with the stacking rules to begin with because the feat itself says it stacks in a specific way, which trumps the general stacking rules.

Offline zugschef

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Re: Factotum/Chameleon questions: What makes it so good?
« Reply #24 on: August 15, 2013, 07:50:18 AM »
You have to admit tho, that most of the feat that add "uses" of a particular class feature do fully stack, wherever they explicitly say it (Extra Turning, Extra Rage, etc for example... most of the well written ones) or they implicitly do (like Eberron's Extra music, that says you can take it multiple times and gives the same bonus), so there's an argument to be made that it MAY fully stack.
I'm sorry, but at least to me, that doesn't make any sense whatsoever. The feat doesn't say it stacks which is why DnD math (1x+2x+3x=3x, if x comes from the same source) is to be used.

It is entirely possible that the feat was never meant to interact with the stacking rules to begin with because the feat itself says it stacks in a specific way, which trumps the general stacking rules.
If you read it again, you will notice that the feat is so poorly worded, that you can't tell either way by its wording. What you can tell is that it doesn't add to your point total and the points are wasted once used. Thus, you can either go by RAW and burn your feat or use the obvious solution which is adding the points gained to you total and using DnD math, because exponential growth just doesn't happen in DnD.

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Offline Demelain

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Re: Factotum/Chameleon questions: What makes it so good?
« Reply #26 on: August 15, 2013, 09:39:25 AM »
Quote from: Inspiration
Inspiration:The
(Fluff)
To represent this seemingly random body of knowledge, a factotum gains inspiration points that he can spend to activate his abilities. At the beginning of each encounter, he gains a number of inspiration points determined by his level (see Table 1–1).

My reading of this would have it that a Factotum has X Inspiration points, which refresh at the beginning of an encounter.

Quote from: Font of Inspiration
( Dungeonscape)
[General]
Prerequisite
INT 15, Must have Inspiration as a class feature.,

Benefits: When you take this feat for the first time, you gain 1 inspiration point.

Special
You can take this multiple times. Each time you take this feat after the first time, the number of inspiration points you gain increases by 1 (for example, you gain 2 inspiration points if you take the feat a second time). The maximum number of times you can take this feat is equal to your Intelligence modifier.

My reading of this would have it that the feat adds 1 to X, and that sum is refreshed at the beginning of an encounter.

The special text only changes the number of IP gained.
When you take this feat for the first time, you gain 1 inspiration point => You gain 2 inspiration points => You gain 3 inspiration points => etc.

I think this is a legitimate reading, and looks like RAW to me. I don't think stacking rules come into play at all here.

I think the way the feat is intended - and the way I use it in my games - is that it adds N inspiration points, where N is the number of times you have taken the feat. If you take the feat 3 times, you gain 3 IP. However, there are certainly better ways they could have stated this (Special: "You can take this feat multiple times. Its effects stack.")

Offline Jackinthegreen

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Re: Factotum/Chameleon questions: What makes it so good?
« Reply #27 on: August 15, 2013, 01:10:29 PM »
If you read it again, you will notice that the feat is so poorly worded, that you can't tell either way by its wording.

Are you capable of looking beyond the words themselves and instead see the heart, soul, intent, and context of them?  It does not seem like you are.  My analysis of it below does go beyond just "its wording."

And so what if it's poorly worded anyway?  We are not obligated to take everything published as literal, especially when it's quite clear they didn't word things well enough to tide some people over.

What we are obligated to do is look beyond the words and come to some reasonable conclusions about what would work within the context of the whole game.  And sometimes that does mean ignoring certain rules.  Interpreting that feat to mean they only ever get 1 inspiration point from it, and when it's expended it's forever gone, is not reasonable.  A feat only ever giving a 1-shot ability simply doesn't work within the game.  A 1-shot ability powerful enough to be worth taking a feat slot for tends to be too powerful for the game.

Interpreting the feat to mean that the Factotum gains a permanent boost to his Inspiration Pool of the amount specified is reasonable.  It lets the Factotum be a bit more versatile, but it's at the expense of another feat that could let him specialize in a certain area, or even be more versatile in a different way.  There are enough feat options that the choice is meaningful, and that's a good thing.

Similarly, the way there are some worthwhile feat chains means that the interpretation of exponential growth for taking FoI is also reasonable.  Taking FoI 3 times for 6 bonus points means the Factotum isn't taking 3 feats to do other things such as go into Shock Trooper or take a few martial adept maneuvers.  In fact, feat chains can be on a whole new level than simply boosting numbers because they can allow the character to do entirely new things.  Going from 0 to 1 can be an infinitely stronger ability than the exponential curve of FoI.  It won't always be, but it can be depending on the circumstances.

The fact that other feats and feat chains can be stronger than multiple FoI (assuming either Demelain's method of "if you take this X number of times, you gain X inspiration points added to your inspiration pool" or the exponential interpretation), depending on the circumstances, means that they've at least got the core of the mechanic right.  Feats are supposed to be meaningful choices, and the choice of taking FoI a few times versus taking some other feats is indeed meaningful and likely difficult if the player doesn't know exactly what they want and how to get there.

There are two kinds of people in this world:  Those who can extrapolate from incomplete data,
« Last Edit: August 15, 2013, 03:06:50 PM by Jackinthegreen »

Offline Captnq

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Re: Factotum/Chameleon questions: What makes it so good?
« Reply #28 on: August 16, 2013, 12:14:19 AM »
Ummm...

What page is this Feat (Font of Inspiration) on? I cannot find it in dungeonscape. I cannot find it in any book, actually.
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Offline linklord231

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Re: Factotum/Chameleon questions: What makes it so good?
« Reply #29 on: August 16, 2013, 12:47:44 AM »
What page is this Feat (Font of Inspiration) on? I cannot find it in dungeonscape. I cannot find it in any book, actually.

It's from this Class Chronicles article on the WotC website.  Here's the full text of the feat:

Font of Inspiration

You have unearthed of well of inspiration from within your soul.

Prerequisite: Int 15, Must have Inspiration as a class feature.

Benefits: When you take this feat for the first time, you gain 1 inspiration point.

Special: You can take this multiple times. Each time you take this feat after the first time, the number of inspiration points you gain increases by 1 (for example, you gain 2 inspiration points if you take the feat a second time). The maximum number of times you can take this feat is equal to your Intelligence modifier.
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Offline zugschef

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Re: Factotum/Chameleon questions: What makes it so good?
« Reply #30 on: August 16, 2013, 03:01:44 AM »
Ruling that taking FoI four times (doable as a human with six levels) gives you as many bonus inspiration points as a 20th level Factotum has in total, makes it meaningful? You might as well add the class feature "FoI: A factotum can't select feats other than FoI" to the class's rules.

Thinking of the "wizards can add any spell to their spellbook"-thread, my only thought left is: Double fuckin' standards.

Offline X-Codes

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Re: Factotum/Chameleon questions: What makes it so good?
« Reply #31 on: August 16, 2013, 03:55:25 AM »
I hope you guys have all realized that you aren't arguing RAW, anymore, since both interpretations are grammatically workable.

Offline zugschef

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Re: Factotum/Chameleon questions: What makes it so good?
« Reply #32 on: August 16, 2013, 04:51:54 AM »
I hope you guys have all realized that you aren't arguing RAW, anymore, since both interpretations are grammatically workable.
Captain Obvious strikes again.

Offline Demelain

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Re: Factotum/Chameleon questions: What makes it so good?
« Reply #33 on: August 16, 2013, 09:57:20 AM »
Ruling that taking FoI four times (doable as a human with six levels) gives you as many bonus inspiration points as a 20th level Factotum has in total, makes it meaningful? You might as well add the class feature "FoI: A factotum can't select feats other than FoI" to the class's rules.

Thinking of the "wizards can add any spell to their spellbook"-thread, my only thought left is: Double fuckin' standards.

Not particularly. In both threads we've been arguing a combination of RAW+Sense - you're reading of the RAW just happens to be radically different than anyone else.

Also, while I understand you must be frustrated with the general failure to communicate your point, being rude isn't really necessary.
« Last Edit: August 16, 2013, 09:59:07 AM by Demelain »

Offline Bard

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Re: Factotum/Chameleon questions: What makes it so good?
« Reply #34 on: August 16, 2013, 10:13:51 AM »
Now... not to distract everyone from the Great Rule War of August, but all this talking of Factotums made me curious and I was wondering about combat with a Factotum. While it's quite obvious the utility of one out of combat, I was thinking how it gets usually used in combat to make it relevant in a party with mostly optimized characters.
Are there any other ways except some Iaijutsu abuse?
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Offline Gazzien

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Re: Factotum/Chameleon questions: What makes it so good?
« Reply #35 on: August 16, 2013, 11:15:36 AM »
Now... not to distract everyone from the Great Rule War of August, but all this talking of Factotums made me curious and I was wondering about combat with a Factotum. While it's quite obvious the utility of one out of combat, I was thinking how it gets usually used in combat to make it relevant in a party with mostly optimized characters.
Are there any other ways except some Iaijutsu abuse?
Super Sneak Attack by burning tons of inspiration points is the other thing I can think of.

Offline Rebel7284

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Re: Factotum/Chameleon questions: What makes it so good?
« Reply #36 on: August 16, 2013, 11:19:04 AM »
Now... not to distract everyone from the Great Rule War of August, but all this talking of Factotums made me curious and I was wondering about combat with a Factotum. While it's quite obvious the utility of one out of combat, I was thinking how it gets usually used in combat to make it relevant in a party with mostly optimized characters.
Are there any other ways except some Iaijutsu abuse?

Double standard actions make manyshot pretty nice. You also have some nice spells and can go sneak attack nova. As long as they aren't trying to be the primary tank, they are pretty good in combat.

Offline Captnq

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Re: Factotum/Chameleon questions: What makes it so good?
« Reply #37 on: August 16, 2013, 11:30:34 AM »
I saw someone try to play one of these once. His character sucked. After witnessing that crash and burn, I have go with theoretically impressive, but in actual game play, less then desired.

It's sort of like playing a bard, looks nice, might be fun to role-play, but never quite delivers.
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Offline Bard

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Re: Factotum/Chameleon questions: What makes it so good?
« Reply #38 on: August 16, 2013, 12:13:59 PM »
I saw someone try to play one of these once. His character sucked. After witnessing that crash and burn, I have go with theoretically impressive, but in actual game play, less then desired.

It's sort of like playing a bard, looks nice, might be fun to role-play, but never quite delivers.

Bards can deliver LOTS, but I don't see how a factotum can.. it seems.. weaker.
A bard with bardic knack/jack of all trades, some music optimization... Dragonfire Inspiration is insane (especially with some less common damage type dragon bloodlines) , then there's the song that adds lots of points to even the smallest heals, even the basic buffing one is great. And with his range of spells including good healing ones... it seems way stronger than a factotum.
But somehow factotums gets a lot of love, while noone seems to care about Bards
« Last Edit: August 16, 2013, 12:16:05 PM by Bard »
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Offline Demelain

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Re: Factotum/Chameleon questions: What makes it so good?
« Reply #39 on: August 16, 2013, 12:26:24 PM »
But somehow factotums gets a lot of love, while noone seems to care about Bards
I feel your pain. The current Bard handbooks are nice and all, but there's more to a Bard than Inspire Courage, ya know?