Factotum/Chameleon questions: What makes it so good?

[Bard]

But somehow factotums gets a lot of love, while noone seems to care about Bards

I feel your pain. The current Bard handbooks are nice and all, but there's more to a Bard than Inspire Courage, ya know?

I think it was the last campaign we played... made an optimized bard as our main healer-buffer-skillmonkey for a friend of mine. He died of DM hate around level 10-11 or so because he was too strong for the party.
The party had in it stuff like a whisper gnome shadowcrafter but the poor bard was just too much (the hail of arrow build and the twf rogue/swordsage with 6d6 more damage on each attack might have worsened the issue)

[X-Codes]

I saw someone try to play one of these once. His character sucked. After witnessing that crash and burn, I have go with theoretically impressive, but in actual game play, less then desired.

It's sort of like playing a bard, looks nice, might be fun to role-play, but never quite delivers.

It's not something just anyone can do.  It takes a certain kind of optimizer to take the Chameleon PrC and do something genuinely good with it, Factotum lead-in or otherwise.

I hope you guys have all realized that you aren't arguing RAW, anymore, since both interpretations are grammatically workable.

Captain Obvious strikes again.

Considering you are the one who originally came into this thread saying that everyone else was absolutely wrong, I would think that finally admitting that an alternative idea to your own is not wrong would be made with a bit more humility.

[linklord231]

Wait, why are all of Zugchef's initial posts gone?

[Jackinthegreen]

Wait, why are all of Zugchef's initial posts gone?

A couple got moved to the Trash.

[Bard]

I guess I'll have to try to make and test one to see if I can make it work.
The main issue that I'm having with it is the cost in IP of his "combat" skills. Even with 3x FoI fully stacking, at around level 10-11 he can just get 12 dice of sneak attack (an abysmal choice) or 4 standard actions -> 4 multishots.
That is great in a 4 round fight...  but as the fight progresses it becomes less and less so, forcing him to rely on low level spells. And to be able to last that long he has basically 3 locked feats for FoI.

I want to see someone playing one now

[X-Codes]

That's a thing, isn't it?  Aside from extra standard actions, there's not a whole lot to actually spend those Inspiration Points on.

That said, Manyshot isn't the only thing he can do with those standard actions.  UMD is on the Factotum skill list, so by level 8 you should be able to use wands pretty reliably.  At that point, 2 levels in Chameleon gets you the ability to craft any wand or scroll you might want, and maybe you can even throw in the Residual Magic feat for opening up the option of using cheap, CL-dependent blasting wands in a much more effective way.

[linklord231]

I think the best Factotum builds are the ones that combine it with something else - Chameleon or Ur Priest (for accelerated casting), Swordsage, sneak attack builds, etc.  They're not really great unless you're doing something meaningful with the extra standard actions you get, or unless you're doing some kind of skill cheese like Lucid Dreaming or Iaijutsu Focus.  You might even be able to benefit from Truespeak by taking some of those spells that require a Truespeak component as your Arcane Dilettante spells. 

[Iainuki]

Captnq and Bard have the right of it: factotum is probably the most overrated base class in 3.5.   Assuming you can figure out how the class is supposed to work, it has good out-of-combat utility potential because of its skills and minor spellcasting.  However, it has no offense in combat that doesn't rely on Iaijutsu Focus, and Iaijutsu Focus is questionably balanced to say the least.  Also, frankly factotum's flavor is very mismatched with that of an OA-based setting, and the only time putting them together makes sense is in an everything-and-the-kitchen-sink setting.  Without Iaijutsu Focus, the class has incredibly subpar damage because even at full nova, it does less damage than a single-classed rogue or barbarian, and even if you set all your feats on fire for Font of Inspiration and your DM lets the feat scale quadratically with the number of times you take it, you can't sustain maximum DPS for a full four encounters a day.  Its SoDs aren't even close to a full caster in either quality or DC because it's always several spell levels behind and falls further behind with every level, and it doesn't get enough spells per day to cover four encounters.  All the claims for factotum being good rely on a handful of broken spells, Iaijutsu Focus, contrived situations, and abuse of the action nova, though even with that and Font of Inspiration, it still has no endurance.

[X-Codes]

That's partly why it's so great with Chameleon.  Between crafting wands without feat investment and the innate spellcasting, a Factotum can gain that endurance you're talking about.

Also, suggesting that a single-classed rogue out-damage a Factotum is rather dishonest.  If it can bring Sneak Attack to bear, then sure, but Sneak Attack is, at best, unreliable after level 10 or so.

[Skevvix]

Now... not to distract everyone from the Great Rule War of August, but all this talking of Factotums made me curious and I was wondering about combat with a Factotum. While it's quite obvious the utility of one out of combat, I was thinking how it gets usually used in combat to make it relevant in a party with mostly optimized characters.
Are there any other ways except some Iaijutsu abuse?

My factotum(Fac8/cham1) uses ability damage items/ spells and pumps the damage with inspiration.  I generally focus on getting behind enemy lines and taking out the support.  We don't have a rogue either, so I'm the scout most times as well.

[Iainuki]

If it can bring Sneak Attack to bear, then sure, but Sneak Attack is, at best, unreliable after level 10 or so.

I don't understand this statement.  In the core, the CR 10+ monsters are dominated by dragons and outsiders with a smattering of constructs, giants, magical beasts, and undead.  You can't sneak attack undead or constructs, but you can sneak attack the others.  Outside the core, the type distribution is similar (of CR 10-20 monsters in the index, there are 53 constructs, 51 aberrations, 22 dragons, 22 elementals, 3 fey, 28 giants, 40 magical beasts, 14 monstrous humanoids, 110 outsiders, 13 plants, and 47 undead), and there are a number of different ways to sneak attack otherwise-immune monsters, particularly undead and constructs.  Are you thinking about fortification armor and similar effects?  Well, DMs *can* make it impossible for rogues to do anything in combat with fortification armor, concealment spells, etc.  This is generally true for all classes, even full casters: almost everything in 3.5 has a counter so if your DM wants to put a specific counter to whatever you're doing in every encounter, you're not going to be effective.  I think this violates the implicit contract of the game (the DM is there to make the game fun for the players, not figure out ways to make PCs ineffective) and isn't how most people play, in any event.

That said, it's not just rogues, factotum does a small fraction of the damage of rage-focused barbarians, Power Attack/Shock Trooper chargers, dungeoncrasher fighters, unarmed and natural-weapon builds that stack effective size increases, Arcane Striking duskblades, and every other build you can think of that does enough damage to be relevant compared to monster HP.  Their offense isn't just lacking compared to some characters, it's lacking compared to all characters good enough for even a lightly-optimized party.

[Bard]

There are ways to sneak attack almost everything,  mostly with items..  I don't get why people consider it  an inconsistent way to deal damage because of those immunities D:

[strider24seven]

I have played a number of Factota over the years at varying levels with with different degrees of multiclassing... and in my experience they are rather lacking as a primary class.  They have a variety of supporting abilities that give fantastic boosts, but they lack a primary focus.  Let's check out their major abilities:

-Trapfinding:  At least you're more useful than the rogue.
-Cunning Insight:  Great way to ensure an attack lands or deal lethal damage, particularly at low levels.  Can debatably work with ability damage, which can potentially be devastating.
-Cunning Knowledge:  Grants a 1/day modest boost to an attack with Iaijutsu Focus.  Really shines on niche skills that you'd only use 1/day anyway, like Forgery, Decipher Script, Appraise, etc.
-Arcane Dilettante:  By picking versatile spells, they can potentially have a trick up their sleeve to get out of a tight situation.  Early on this ability is pretty lame, limited to Prestidigitation or Ray of Enfeeblement or Nerveskitter.  Later on Alter Self and Polymorph can give them a significant combat boost for one combat.  Vampiric Touch and Shivering Touch combo with Cunning Insight, even if it doesn't apply to ability damage.  Also qualifies the Factotum for metamagic feats... which are of limited use to him beyond Extend due to his normally limited casting. 
-Brains over Brawn:  I find that this is the ability that sees the most use.  First of all, INT to initiative is awesome.  Second, picking up a guisarme enables tripping as a fairly reliable debuff, and, if the game sticks to low enough levels, then Improved Trip is very strong.  It also provides a significant boost to many skills, like Tumble, and many of the movement-based skill checks that you probably don't want to fail at low levels, like Climb, Jump, and Swim. 
-Cunning Dodge:  In my experience this ability doesn't come up too often, but does provide you a bit of a crutch if you get caught out of position.
-Cunning Strike:  Great to get some extra oomph.  Works well with weapon-like spells.
-Opportunistic Piety:  The healing is better than the turning.  Gets you some extra staying power but is nothing special.
-Cunning Surge:  This ability would be great if the class had a way to capitalize on it more.  By itself, wand use and Manyshot are the only real ways to get decent mileage out of it, although it can buy you an extra move if you need it. 
-Cunning Breach:  This ability would be awesome at higher levels, except that, again, you don't really have a way to capitalize on it.  Your attacks tend to be less than stellar, and you don't really have enough spells for all-day use. 
-Cunning Dodge:  I feel that if this ability comes up, you are doing it wrong.  However, it is a nice safety net to have. 
-Improved Cunning Defense:  Definitely an improvement over Cunning Defense, but nothing special at this point.
-Cunning Brilliance:  Debatably can nab you spellcasting of a 15th level wiz/cleric, but that seems lame to me.  Grabbing maneuvers and a recovery method to turn into an impromptu Swordsage has been effective for me.  The Warblade's INT-synergy abilities are fairly cute too.  Comes way too late in the class IMO. 

So we have a bunch of bail-out abilities and stuff that gives some minor boosts.  In my opinion, the best abilities come at or before level 3. 
At E6 levels, I have found a trip-based Factotum to be an acceptable beatstick that can also handle out-of-combat utility, with good initiative and STR checks for keeping enemies under control and Alter Self as a self buff for combat abilities.
At higher levels, though, I have found the factotum to be extremely lacking, particularly in combat. 

However, I have found that Factotum really shines as a support class, particularly in gestalt.  Other classes, like Wizard, Archivist, Psion and Warblade, can benefit greatly from the INT-synergy that Factotum offers... particularly the initiative boost from Brains over Brawn.  Casters, of course, need to be wary of caster level loss outside of gestalt.  Cunning Surge suddenly gets a huge jump in power when you have a use for your extra standard actions, like spells or maneuvers.  Cunning Breach also becomes much more useful, allowing you to blow past high-SR creatures with ease, or high-DR creatures if you are going the TWF/Tiger Claw route with Warblade.  Incarnate and Totemist are also very powerful with Factotum in gestalt, enabling you to be prepared for any situation without preparation.  Dissolving Spittle and Manticore Belt are particularly useful with Cunning Surge. 

I should also mention that Factotum works exceedingly well in Epic, particularly with gestalt, and particularly if you play with the Dicefreaks rules.  Cunning Breach is invaluable, allowing you to blow past the absurd SR and DR that some creatures possess, reenabling the use of SR:  Yes spells. 

I find that Factotum is an excellent lead-in to Chameleon, and that Cunning Surge helps you make use of the gobs of spells you get from Double Aptitude.  Factotum 11/Chameleon 9 is an excellent build for most campaigns.  I find it most effective to go Factotum 5/Chameleon 2/Factotum +3/Chameleon +7/Factotum +3.  The bonus feat can be used for Extra Spell on off-days to pick up more spells for the spellbook, and to share with the party Wizard/Archivist.  It's lacking a bit in campaigns of incredibly high optimization, though,without abusing Extra Slot for 9ths.  I find the build is strongest at 15th, when you pick up Cunning Surge and Double Aptitude.  You're behind a CL and 2 spell levels on a wizard, but have the versatility of multiple spell lists and lower-than-normal-level spells, such as those from the Trapsmith or Paladin lists.  I find that you're best off trying to function as a rogueish gish, that has utility spells so that the primary spellcasters can focus on their duties.  You can also debatably make use of the Artifact spells from Secrets of Xendrik, which are an exceedingly powerful tool. 

In conclusion (and the TL;DR i guess):
I find Factota most useful at low levels or in gestalt.  I find the best ability for the single-classed factotum to be Brains over Brawn and that Cunning Surge is only really useful with another class.  I find them to be a huge improvement on the Rogue, and can be better than a Fighter, and can play competently alongside Tier 1/2 classes at low levels, but are lacking in potency at higher levels.  In my experience, Factotum/Chameleon is a very good combination that works well in most campaigns.  Of course they pale in comparison to a well-built and well-played Wizard, Cleric, Druid, or Artificer, but what doesn't?

[Bard]

First of all, thanks for the insight, it's been helpful.

In my experience, Factotum/Chameleon is a very good combination that works well in most campaigns.  Of course they pale in comparison to a well-built and well-played Wizard, Cleric, Druid, or Artificer, but what doesn't?

That's a given I guess, but I was wondering more on how it was compared to other classes that tend to fill the same skillmonkey/trapfinder/"oddball 5th member" roles, mainly a well built bardic knack Bard, a ranger/scout or a sneakmonkey rogue (with tons of love and maybe a splice of swordsage on it). From what I gather it seems it stands below the bard, and pretty balanced with the other two, trading some combat prowess for added versatility and utility both in and out of combat (thanks to the Chamaleon on top of his skills)

[X-Codes]

There are ways to sneak attack almost everything,  mostly with items..  I don't get why people consider it  an inconsistent way to deal damage because of those immunities D:

Because a second-level spell immunizes you against Sneak Attack for a minute per level, and for a typical rogue there's no way to circumvent it short of True Seeing (which is very expensive for a Rogue to get a hold of).  Blur is an easy, cost-effective defensive measure in the core rulebook that is rough on Fighters but even worse for Rogues.  Then add to that the fact that Sneak-Attacking Rogues face at least as many problems as Charging Melee BSF's simply to get their attacks off.  They don't need to get to their targets in a straight line, but they DO need to position themselves very precisely in order to get the necessary flanking bonus.

So yeah, looking back at your list, it's probably reasonable that non-flying Magical Beasts can be easily sneak-attacked by a Rogue, and non-flying Undead and Constructs can also be so long as the Rogue's wands of Golemstrike and Gravestrike have charges.  The rest, including the "dominant" Outsiders and Dragons?  Need I remind you that Dragons cast as Sorcerers?

[Jackinthegreen]

There are also the weapon crystals that allow SA for constructs and undead, but the wand route is definitely cheaper at first if SA is what's being affected.  1st level spells are wonderful like that.

[Bard]

There are ways to sneak attack almost everything,  mostly with items..  I don't get why people consider it  an inconsistent way to deal damage because of those immunities D:

Because a second-level spell immunizes you against Sneak Attack for a minute per level, and for a typical rogue there's no way to circumvent it short of True Seeing (which is very expensive for a Rogue to get a hold of).  Blur is an easy, cost-effective defensive measure in the core rulebook that is rough on Fighters but even worse for Rogues.  Then add to that the fact that Sneak-Attacking Rogues face at least as many problems as Charging Melee BSF's simply to get their attacks off.  They don't need to get to their targets in a straight line, but they DO need to position themselves very precisely in order to get the necessary flanking bonus.

So yeah, looking back at your list, it's probably reasonable that non-flying Magical Beasts can be easily sneak-attacked by a Rogue, and non-flying Undead and Constructs can also be so long as the Rogue's wands of Golemstrike and Gravestrike have charges.  The rest, including the "dominant" Outsiders and Dragons?  Need I remind you that Dragons cast as Sorcerers?

Flight, invisibility, blur.. there's lots of way to defend against sneak attacks and precision damage in general, but in my experience it's quite rare to see a rogue without some items to get blindsight (usually the headband from the Arms and Equipment guide or some custom item made with the Blindsight spell from FR/Underdark, and some way to get at least temporary flight. It still sucks HAVING TO take some things with a class, especially that many item as the rogue needs to work, and it still is a big issue in the early levels.

[X-Codes]

Oh, and I forgot to add: +1 armor of heavy fortification is a little over 36k and gives flat immunity to critical hits and SA in a way that cannot be reliably removed by anything short of an AMF.

[Demelain]

I think the SA point being made by Iainuki is that, by default, it's not actually countered very heavily. Fortification and spells are things that your DM has to choose to arm foes with, specifically for the purpose of countering you.

If your enemies all show up wearing fortification armor, then you stop caring about SA because you'll be swimming in so much money that you can buy whatever you want.
If your enemies all show up with miss-chance spells, then you can either deal with it and dispel them (mostly low level) or punch your DM because he's trying to be a dick.

If your DM wants to shit all over a SA character, then he can. But unless he's singling you out for nerfing, you're fine.

[veekie]

Don't forget the difference between availability and commonality. Just because it's available doesn't mean that enemies will have them,  barring customized opponents.

But the issue here is the Factotum rather than Rogue. Where does it place in terms of combat, support, dungeons, exploration, traveling information gathering or social challenges? Establish and nail down each aspect in terms of performance and perhaps it can be seen if it's an adequate tradeoff, a good one, or an inadequate one.