Factotum/Chameleon questions: What makes it so good?

[zugschef]

Out of combat, they don't even function at all because the game lacks a definition of what an encounter actually is, when it starts and how long it lasts.

If you're going to attempt an argument, at least avoid using ridiculous shit like that. Is there a precise definition of an encounter covering all circumstances? No. But it has to be one hell of a draconian DM deliberately shitting on you in order for the claim you're making to be relevant ever.

Pointing out a broken mechanic is a ridiculous argument (and inspiration points per encounter is an obviously broken mechanic; broken as in not functional)?
... Actually, that explains a lot.

[Jackinthegreen]

Not functional in what sense?  So far it only looks like one would need to define what encounters (combat or otherwise) are for inspiration points (and maneuvers, and skills tricks, and a barbarian's rage, and plenty of other stuff) to work if you're getting hung up on the word "encounter."

But just because the rules don't explain it well enough for some doesn't mean a player group doesn't have some sense of what an encounter actually would be.

[Bard]

IF we are comparing factotum with a rogue... well factotum isn't a combat class, rogue is.

All classes are combat classes.  If your class doesn't offer you anything meaningful to do in combat, your class is made of fail and shame.

There's a difference between being able to take part on a combat and having a set of class features that have combat as a main focus. Or to be more precise "dealing damage in combat".
I admit I may have clarified it better using "a damage dealing class" instead of "combat". But even so, compared to other classes, a greater part of factotum abilities are geared toward non-combat use or at least are meant to be used both in and outside combat. And of the few that are combat oriented, some like "1 inspiration for 1 dice of SA" are just bad

Taking a look at the rogue is easy to notice that beside having Trap-skills (Trapfinding and Trapsense) and having a bit more skill points, every other class feature (Sneak Attack, Uncanny Dodge, Evasion and the majority of his special abilities) are combat related. And the non-combat ones can be easily ACF'ed away for combat related stuff (Penetrating Strike, Lightbringer PS, Spell Sense, Death's ruin, etc)

[strider24seven]

Without FoI abuse and that ridiculous 3.0 skill Factotums don't bring anything to the table in combat. Out of combat, they don't even function at all because the game lacks a definition of what an encounter actually is, when it starts and how long it lasts. And just because people keep mentioning Arcane Dilletant: Their SLAs are crap, too, because if your cohort has a wizard cohort, this wizard still casts better than the Factotum.

Ok, I'm just going to ask you point-blank, have you ever actually played a factotum?

[SorO_Lost]

IF we are comparing factotum with a rogue... well factotum isn't a combat class, rogue is.

All classes are combat classes.  If your class doesn't offer you anything meaningful to do in combat, your class is made of fail and shame.

That's that it. The Factotum doesn't have anything all that meaningful to do in combat. Even by the almighty 8th level, and investing three Feats into Inspiration, the Factoum gains a maximum +13d6 SA per Encounter. Or four extra Standard Actions, or Skill Boosts but no room for Knowledge Devotion & the boost is 1/day per Knowledge Skill.

To put that Standard Action into prospect, Int>Dex>Con>Str, saying the Factotum has 12 Str is generous. A +1 Greatsword means 2d6+5. Those four Standard Actions gives him a 6 Attack Nova with one point left over to SA. That's a maximum 12d6+30+1d6, or 75.5. Round 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, yeah for the rest of the Encounter he is a Commoner with an Enhanced Greatsword, 12dmg per hit.
To scale, even at two Attacks, unaugmented +4d6 SA, and spending only a single Feat for Craven (not three like the factotum) the 12 Str Mace using Rogue deals 1d8+1+4d6+8 (27.5) per hit or 55 per full-attack. Only 20 points behind the Factotum, which is made up and massively surpassed in round 2. And every single round after that just insults the Factotum's attempts. Even a Barbarian can do better.
So combat wise the Factotum must piggyback into another set of OP rules. Ubercharging, the default to all failed Classes, or Iaijitsu Focus so it's less impactful than a Rogue. But ultimately is those rules that are the reason the Character succeeds, not the Class Features.

But wait, Cunning Surge is awesome right? You can use it to trigger Magic Items! Problem with that is that this is literately throwing gold at Encounters in order to win. And NPC Hirelings, Familiars, Animal Companions, or basically farm animals and tertiary Class Features already handle this job of handling Magic Items for you. It's just not that impressive.

On a TO tabletop, the Dilettantes allow the Factotum to stock pile Fire Shurikens, Shrunken Items, and thinks selling Walls of Iron some how beats a Commoner crafting gold pieces for a WBL trick. These can make up the difference, but a Barbarian is ready to fight as equally on day 1 as day 12. The Cleric needs an hour, the almighty God-Wizard needs 9 hours to rape reality but the Factotum? He needs a week in between each Encounter. Which just doesn't happen in a real game, and without it they can't create the room they need to shine.

[X-Codes]

Yes, yes, the Factotum can't do ANYTHING meaningful in combat EXCEPT Sneak Attack... except add his sizable Intelligence modifier to Trip attacks and Initiative, add his class level to Knowledge checks for Knowledge Devotion, add take an occasional extra standard action that lets him EITHER activate a magic item OR cast a spell OR move into position to get a full attack off in a situation a Rogue can't OR do any of the billion fucking other things you can do with a free standard action.

I'm out of this discussion.  It boggles the mind how the same board that thinks that Evocation is a crappy school for wizards because it just does damage gets so fucking hung up over a genuinely bad ability like Sneak Attack.

[linklord231]

Eh, there's a reason that classes that rely on either Power Attack or Sneak Attack all top out around Tier 4.  Neither ability is particularly good in the grand scheme of things, but both can be made to function well enough with a bit of massaging.  If all you're doing is damage, then Power Attack or Sneak Attack will both work admirably. 

The thing is, Sneak Attack is all a rogue can do (not counting UMD, since we don't want to win by throwing money at our problems).  A Factotum could be Power Attacking, but there are probably people in the party better at it than he is.  He shouldn't focus on Sneak Attacking, because he should use those IPs for other things.  He might be tripping, if he prioritized Int > Str > Con, or he could be TWFing with Iaijutsu if he went Int > Dex > Con.  He might pop off an Arcane Dilettante spell - preferably one of the many no-save-no-SR "just lose" spells.  He might even do both at the same time, if he's high enough level. 

A Factotum's damage doesn't come from Sneak Attack.  It might come from Power Attack, but probably not.  You have to find some other source.  That source might be Iaijutsu Focus + Knowledge Devotion, or it could be from multiclassing or PrCing, or maybe something like a Confound the Big Folk build.  You've got options. 

Factotums definitely have a lower optimization floor than Rogues (and that's saying something).  But I think they have a higher ceiling, especially if Iaijutsu and Lucid Dreaming are on the table. 

[SorO_Lost]

The thing is, Sneak Attack is all a rogue can do (not counting UMD, since we don't want to win by throwing money at our problems).

Well not quite.

For instance, you mentioned both Tripping and PA. The Feat Rogue accesses Improved Trip & Power Attack as Class Features and with all the Feat Slots obtains them far faster than the guy that needs to take Font of Inspiration. In fact, the Fatotum has no real support in this area, the Barbarian/Fighter/Monk/Rogue/etc all have inherent access to Improved Tip's bonus and additional attack benefit. Even the Druid's Wolf has a free no-retaliation Trip that the Druid can personally improve does a better job at Tripping than a Factotum.

And that's literately a Factotum in a nut shell. It's focused on Skills and too wide spread with little to no benefits in other areas. No claims to fame like the Bard's party based Spellcasting or Inspiration, Spelltheif's Steal Supernatural Ability, or the Rogue's superior SA on a more well built chassis, because it's so called claim is an eight level dip for an extra Standard Action per Encounter, but you'd have to be an Ur-Priest just to make up those nearly worthless levels. In fact, for being a Skill Focused Class, it actuality does it's job poorly. As a throwaway a Cleric can provide a +20 Bonus to Skills, Bard has Competence & Luck Bonuses out the rear, even the damn Warlock picks up a +6 Bonus to three prime Knowledge Checks for KD abuse at the 1st level. But those are Spellcasters right? The Marshal grants a second Ability Score to any group of Skills, but does this as a party effect rather than selfishly hording it. Again, it's a 24/7 buff, whilst the Factotum is 1/day and consumes IP. The Marshel does a better job with Skills than a Factotum, and it's a borderline NPC Class.

Those options you mentioned can be used by anyone, but nearly everyone uses them better than the Factotum. I mean, even the Dilettantes flop. All those semi-permanent Spells stockpiled? A smart Wizard produces them ten times faster and shares with the party. the Factotum can die, reroll as a Fighter, and still hope to benefit from them when you introduce the party element. You have to remain at an ambiguous I-can-cast-a-7th-level-Spell level for it to be impressive. (actually, by lv17 cunning brilliance is one level away and pretty damn nice. Shame PrCs are better).

[Bard]

I'm out of this discussion.  It boggles the mind how the same board that thinks that Evocation is a crappy school for wizards because it just does damage gets so fucking hung up over a genuinely bad ability like Sneak Attack.

The context is a bit different, Wizard and Sorcerer and their merry Tier 1 and 2 mates are on a different level compared from the poor rogue and factotums. PA vs SA is a battle of the poor to start with.

Eh, there's a reason that classes that rely on either Power Attack or Sneak Attack all top out around Tier 4.  Neither ability is particularly good in the grand scheme of things, but both can be made to function well enough with a bit of massaging.  If all you're doing is damage, then Power Attack or Sneak Attack will both work admirably. 

This.

Still I don't think that skill based op tricks (Lucid Dreaming, Iaijitsu Focus) can really save the Factotum that much. There are classes in the tier 4-5 range that can do it just as well as SorO said.

[veekie]

So basically, you have a lower middle baseline performance, in that it would be capable of doing SOMETHING in most encounters, but not as well as someone focused. Less likely to be caught up by specified defenses due to flexibility, but lacking raw output.
High peak performance can be achieved through usage of extra actions and wealth.

The name of the game is flexibility and costs, the factotum fills in gaps and opportunities in most encounters to do minor damage or inconvenience opponents, but makes heavy use of expendable items in challenging encounters to greatly exceed the typical output of it's tier.

Does that seem like a reasonably accurate summation?

[X-Codes]

-a post continuing to ignore basic Factotum functionality-

Yes, anyone can take Improved Trip, but only Factotums add 2 ability modifiers to the opposed roll.  They also don't *have* to take FoI, FoI is just something that makes them flat better at their job -- that's why it's the default.

Also, sure, your Feat Rogue is really good at picking up feats.  You just gave up Sneak Attack to do so, however, so you've still only got one shtick that you're competing with the Factotum on.

[Bard]

So basically, you have a lower middle baseline performance, in that it would be capable of doing SOMETHING in most encounters, but not as well as someone focused. Less likely to be caught up by specified defenses due to flexibility, but lacking raw output.
High peak performance can be achieved through usage of extra actions and wealth.

The name of the game is flexibility and costs, the factotum fills in gaps and opportunities in most encounters to do minor damage or inconvenience opponents, but makes heavy use of expendable items in challenging encounters to greatly exceed the typical output of it's tier.

Does that seem like a reasonably accurate summation?

That seems what it came out of the discussion, yes. Then it shifted on a rogue vs factotum kind of direction.
I'm not sure on the "to greatly exceed the typical output of it's tier" part tho. Tier 3 classes dps can be really good, they just lack the "solve everything" skills. I see the factotum (and the bard) in there as strange beasts, getting closer to be able to achieve "solve (almost) everything" than other classes in the same tier, while not quite reaching the "kill (almost) everything" potential of Psywar/ToB classes.

[veekie]

I was referencing burning most of your IP for actions and then burning all those actions on scrolls and wands for output though. That's pretty damned high, if far from cheap.

[zugschef]

Without FoI abuse and that ridiculous 3.0 skill Factotums don't bring anything to the table in combat. Out of combat, they don't even function at all because the game lacks a definition of what an encounter actually is, when it starts and how long it lasts. And just because people keep mentioning Arcane Dilletant: Their SLAs are crap, too, because if your cohort has a wizard cohort, this wizard still casts better than the Factotum.

Ok, I'm just going to ask you point-blank, have you ever actually played a factotum?

I don't need to have played a factotum to see its mechanical errors and general weakness. Fighters and barbarians are better at power attacking, rogues are better at sneak attacking, clerics and duskblades are better at using knowledge devotion and your cohort's cohort is better at casting. Truth is, a factotum can't do anything level appropriate with its one additional standard action per encounter anyway, so who cares? On top of that, I'm sure that all the people getting a boner from spamming multiple standard actions and dealing additional damage via iaijutsu focus, haven't played a factotum with abusive FoI interpretation and that stupid 3.0 skill, most gaming tables haven't even heard of, in an actual game either.

[X-Codes]

Just because you don't agree with it doesn't mean it's abusive.  You can't become Pun-Pun by taking a bunch of Font of Inspiration feats.

[zugschef]

Just because you don't agree with it doesn't mean it's abusive.  You can't become Pun-Pun by taking a bunch of Font of Inspiration feats.

Don't get me started on manipulate form. Apart from that, breaking the action economy by taking five or more standard actions in one turn is abusive (because what else were you gonna burn those additional inspiration points on), even if you can't do anything level-appropriate with those actions individually.

[Bard]

I was referencing burning most of your IP for actions and then burning all those actions on scrolls and wands for output though. That's pretty damned high, if far from cheap.

4-5 wands worth of damage in a round is pretty damned high indeed. Somehow it reminds me of those skills in old japanese rpg videogames where you deal damage throwing money at the enemy 

[strider24seven]

I don't need to have played a factotum to see its mechanical errors and general weakness. Fighters and barbarians are better at power attacking, rogues are better at sneak attacking, clerics and duskblades are better at using knowledge devotion and your cohort's cohort is better at casting. Truth is, a factotum can't do anything level appropriate with its one additional standard action per encounter anyway, so who cares? On top of that, I'm sure that all the people getting a boner from spamming multiple standard actions and dealing additional damage via iaijutsu focus, haven't played a factotum with abusive FoI interpretation and that stupid 3.0 skill, most gaming tables haven't even heard of, in an actual game either.

Of the six single-classed factota I have played, I've played with FoI and Iaijutsu focus precisely once, and found them both underwhelming.  I found that at low levels (<6), factota are exceedingly effective.  I've found them to be able to contribute more than a rogue, who is just a gaggle of skill points, some situational damage OR a few fighter feats, and evasion, at these levels.   Perhaps you would understand that if you would cease being so obtuse about WotC not telling what constitutes an encounter (I assume that you are an intelligent person and are able to puzzle that out for yourself, or at least that your DM is), then you might attempt it for yourself to actually have some evidence to back up your (frankly ridiculous) claims.

As we say in my profession, "It doesn't matter how beautiful your theory is; it doesn't matter how smart you are. If it doesn't agree with experiment, it's wrong."

[zugschef]

Guess what happens after level six: skills cease to be relevant. Besides, my argument regarding the definition of encounters is a shot at optimization of this class in general, because every group will handle it differently. It's neither obvious nor trivial how your group decides to handle a series of events regarding encounters that starts with sneaking down the corridor, goes on with searching for traps, disabling the trap found and the fight with the guards, who attack you after being alerted by your failure to disable the alarm spell. Also, levels 1-3 are irrelevant in any serious discussion anyway, so even you admit that the factotum is at best relevant for 3 levels. Sounds like a waste of space to me.

[Captnq]

Guess what happens after level six: skills cease to be relevant.

Some skills cease to be relevant, not all.

Bluff 50 can be relevant.
Spot 50 can be relevant.
Sense Motive 50 can be relevant.

There are some skills that max out in usefulness and other that you can never have too high.