Author Topic: Factotum/Chameleon questions: What makes it so good?  (Read 66616 times)

Offline strider24seven

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Re: Factotum/Chameleon questions: What makes it so good?
« Reply #100 on: August 20, 2013, 11:14:56 AM »
Guess what happens after level six: skills cease to be relevant. Besides, my argument regarding the definition of encounters is a shot at optimization of this class in general, because every group will handle it differently. It's neither obvious nor trivial how your group decides to handle a series of events regarding encounters that starts with sneaking down the corridor, goes on with searching for traps, disabling the trap found and the fight with the guards, who attack you after being alerted by your failure to disable the alarm spell. Also, levels 1-3 are irrelevant in any serious discussion anyway, so even you admit that the factotum is at best relevant for 3 levels. Sounds like a waste of space to me.

Actually, if you're playing modules, it's painfully obvious when you enter/leave an encounter (with the notable exception of the World's Largest Dungeon), even a non-combat one - everything is spelled out for you in ink (or pixels).  And even if you are not, well... the DMG encourages a DM to plan out encounters ahead of time, which presumably includes when an encounter starts/ends.  At least, I consider that a reasonable assumption.  I could very well be wrong - I consider common sense a reasonable assumption, which apparently you do not.

How are skills irrelevant past level 6?  Do you not play with the rules for Spot and Listen checks enforced?  Do you not Search rooms?  Does no one Use Magic Device?  Surely someone initiates a conversation with something other than Charm Person?  Of course, no spellcaster has ever been forced to cast defensively or taken damage whilst casting a spell.  And of course, no Incantatrix has ever used Metamagic Effect.  Ever.  I can understand that signficant investment in skills yields minimal returns at higher levels, but that no skills are used at all beyond a relatively low level?  :huh

And how exactly are levels 1-3 irrelevant in a serious discussion?  Does no one play at low levels anymore?  Is E6 not a thing anymore?   Did I miss an errata somehwere that gives all characters and monsters 10,000 XP at character creation by default?  :twitch ... On the other hand, by saying that, I think you may have indicated that this is not a serious conversation, in which case:

Quote from: HAL9000
This conversation can serve no purpose anymore.

As an addendum, I also I feel the inane need to correct you on this bit:
so even you admit that the factotum is at best relevant for 3 levels
I found that at low levels (<6), factota are exceedingly effective.
I would not dare to insult your reading comprehension, so I will insult your comprehension of mathematics instead. 
6=/=3.
« Last Edit: August 20, 2013, 11:17:21 AM by strider24seven »

Offline Demelain

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Re: Factotum/Chameleon questions: What makes it so good?
« Reply #101 on: August 20, 2013, 12:04:44 PM »
By 3 levels he referred to 4, 5, and 6. Because 1-3 Don't count, apparently.

Offline PlzBreakMyCampaign

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Re: Factotum/Chameleon questions: What makes it so good?
« Reply #102 on: August 20, 2013, 09:26:51 PM »
I love Factotum 3. Meh. To the OP: Chameleon is just even more flexibility. Morphling isn't the best DotA hero. But its hard to go wrong with him in nearly any team lineup. Flexibility is very, very good. Up to a point... (That point is t2 and t1).

Makes me wonder if Kevin_Video's DM has ever done that.  "I use an inspiration point to boost this climb check." "Sorry, you're not in an encounter, thus you don't have any inspiration points to use."   :banghead
You're making me love that guy even more.

It boggles the mind how the same board that thinks that Evocation is a crappy school for wizards because it just does damage gets so fucking hung up over a genuinely bad ability like Sneak Attack.
Hehe.

The name of the game is flexibility and costs, the factotum fills in gaps and opportunities in most encounters to do minor damage or inconvenience opponents, but makes heavy use of expendable items in challenging encounters to greatly exceed the typical output of it's tier.
Bingo for T3

Offline FlaminCows

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Re: Factotum/Chameleon questions: What makes it so good?
« Reply #103 on: August 23, 2013, 08:39:09 AM »
One needn't guess where encounters begin and end because WotC has helpfully provided the answer.
Quote from: D&D FAQ
Can a factotum (Du 14) use his “cunning insight” to boost his save outside of combat (for example, against a poison trap)?
Yes, you can use such abilities outside of combat. An “encounter” is more than a combat, but it also includes any other significant event in the game such as stopping to bash down a door, navigating a rickety bridge, or dealing with a trap. If the characters have a minute or two to catch their breath and rest, assume that the last encounter has ended and all per encounter abilities refresh.
Simple enough.

Ark, the confusion you're having is because if you're a Chameleon you're going to be focusing on that, rather than on the Factotum's abilities. Brains over Brawn is a nice boost for the Chameleon. Cunning Surge is also good, but I've yet to see anyone go a full eight levels into Factotum when making a Chameleon build unless they're playing gestalt.
« Last Edit: August 23, 2013, 08:45:02 AM by FlaminCows »

Offline X-Codes

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Re: Factotum/Chameleon questions: What makes it so good?
« Reply #104 on: August 23, 2013, 09:11:06 AM »
Ark, the confusion you're having is because if you're a Chameleon you're going to be focusing on that, rather than on the Factotum's abilities. Brains over Brawn is a nice boost for the Chameleon. Cunning Surge is also good, but I've yet to see anyone go a full eight levels into Factotum when making a Chameleon build unless they're playing gestalt.
Cunning Surge comes online for Chameleons at level 18.  When you play a Chameleon, you start it at ECL 6 and you finish at ECL 15, because you don't want to lose caster levels and very little advances Chameleon casting (certainly not Factotum levels).

Offline FlaminCows

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Re: Factotum/Chameleon questions: What makes it so good?
« Reply #105 on: August 24, 2013, 01:59:17 AM »
Ark, the confusion you're having is because if you're a Chameleon you're going to be focusing on that, rather than on the Factotum's abilities. Brains over Brawn is a nice boost for the Chameleon. Cunning Surge is also good, but I've yet to see anyone go a full eight levels into Factotum when making a Chameleon build unless they're playing gestalt.
Cunning Surge comes online for Chameleons at level 18.  When you play a Chameleon, you start it at ECL 6 and you finish at ECL 15, because you don't want to lose caster levels and very little advances Chameleon casting (certainly not Factotum levels).

Uncanny Trickster and Legacy Champion both advance Chameleon casting, and that might be more useful post-15.
« Last Edit: August 24, 2013, 02:04:00 AM by FlaminCows »

Offline X-Codes

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Re: Factotum/Chameleon questions: What makes it so good?
« Reply #106 on: August 24, 2013, 05:37:21 AM »
Nothing advances Chameleon casting post-15.  Legacy Champion and Uncanny Trickster will net you a higher CL, but no spells, and no higher spell levels.

Offline FlaminCows

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Re: Factotum/Chameleon questions: What makes it so good?
« Reply #107 on: August 24, 2013, 07:04:04 AM »
That's what cheesy feat tricks are for.  :P

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Re: Factotum/Chameleon questions: What makes it so good?
« Reply #108 on: August 24, 2013, 07:21:57 AM »
That's what cheesy feat tricks are for.  :P
Let's go burn a Candle of Invocation while we're at it, huh?

Offline zugschef

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Re: Factotum/Chameleon questions: What makes it so good?
« Reply #109 on: August 24, 2013, 09:19:48 AM »
That's what cheesy feat tricks are for.  :P
It's not even cheesy, because there's no cheese to begin with.

Offline SorO_Lost

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Re: Factotum/Chameleon questions: What makes it so good?
« Reply #110 on: August 24, 2013, 12:31:39 PM »
Nothing advances Chameleon casting post-15.  Legacy Champion and Uncanny Trickster will net you a higher CL, but no spells, and no higher spell levels.
Well there is also the mimic'ed Class Features like Turn Undead, Smite Evil, and Sneak Attack which will also see an increase.

Through the last five levels should include Master of Masks. The Gladiator Mask grants you proficiency with all exotic weapons.
(click to show/hide)
You can also use the Masks to display any desired alignment for some interesting NPC reactions. Like don the Angelic Mask and use Chameleon to pretend you're a Paladin. Clearly that orphanage you burned to the ground was full of heretics and devils or you would a fallen, and not an LG, Paladin. :D


« Last Edit: August 24, 2013, 12:34:56 PM by SorO_Lost »

Offline awaken_D_M_golem

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Re: Factotum/Chameleon questions: What makes it so good?
« Reply #111 on: August 26, 2013, 03:44:10 PM »
One needn't guess where encounters begin and end because WotC has helpfully provided the answer.
Quote from: D&D FAQ
Can a factotum (Du 14) use his “cunning insight” to boost his save outside of combat (for example, against a poison trap)?
Yes, you can use such abilities outside of combat. An “encounter” is more than a combat, but it also includes any other significant event in the game such as stopping to bash down a door, navigating a rickety bridge, or dealing with a trap. If the characters have a minute or two to catch their breath and rest, assume that the last encounter has ended and all per encounter abilities refresh.
Simple enough.

hmm ... interesting ... this f.a.q. definition of an
"encounter" jives in the range of this one from BG:
http://brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php?topic=11923.5
Your codpiece is a mimic.

Offline SorO_Lost

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Re: Factotum/Chameleon questions: What makes it so good?
« Reply #112 on: August 27, 2013, 09:14:56 AM »
Oh yeah. That's part of JaronK's personal crusade to prove the Factotum was the best* Class ever. It's better than Casters because it doesn't break the game with spellcasting and it's better than mundanes because it has spellcasting. It's weak enough a team of rag-tag Monks won't feel underpowered but can compete with a Wizard thanks to it's ability to cast Planar Binding & Animate Dead. ;)

Offline Shadowhunter

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Re: Factotum/Chameleon questions: What makes it so good?
« Reply #113 on: September 13, 2013, 08:35:05 PM »
I think the thing about skills becoming obsolete after a certain level has to do with the fact that most skill DC's are at a level where your modifiers (if you're competent at it) means you can succeed at most of the things fairly soon in  your career.

I'm going to repost a quote from some dude over at the old WotC boards, through McPoyo who posted it at BG. Coincidentally, this repost is exactly three years ago in two days.
Is it noticeable that I'm during my last year at University and have proper-source-crediting on my brain btw?  :tongue

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+++EDIT+++

Oops, semi-necro'ed.

Offline Captnq

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Re: Factotum/Chameleon questions: What makes it so good?
« Reply #114 on: September 13, 2013, 11:04:21 PM »
True, but there are some Vs skills that you can never have too high.

Listen, Spot, Hide, Move silently, Bluff, Sense Motive, Diplomacy all spring to mind.

Trust me, I just beat one of my players Hide rolls. She got a 57. The bad guy still spotted her.
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Offline SorO_Lost

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Re: Factotum/Chameleon questions: What makes it so good?
« Reply #115 on: September 14, 2013, 10:42:36 AM »
There are two problems with Spot/Listen is Hide/Move hits 40+ before you have 12 ranks in the Skill. CR 20 monsters cap out below +30 or so, you need customs to deal with them. So meh. And the other problem is higher level monster's and spellcasters don't care what your Hide check is unless you have Darkstalker & a Ring of Darkhidden, even then there are a few that don't care anyway.

Also you must be using houserules in order to even suggest Diplomacy. I mean a DC 50 check flips the BBEG into being your bodyguard. Imagine Luke Skywalker walking handcuffed into the Emperor's throne room and Luke is all like "you should surrender" then instead of laughing saying your Jedi mind tricks won't work on him the Emperor uses the Death Star to blow up his Star Cruisers in agreeance.

Wait, that's totally a true story. How else did the flipping furries win?

Offline awaken_D_M_golem

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Re: Factotum/Chameleon questions: What makes it so good?
« Reply #116 on: September 25, 2013, 04:54:25 PM »

9th level Beguiler. 12 ranks in Disguise, 14 (+2) Charisma, with a disguise kit (+2). Total modifier is +16, taking 10 gets him a 26. He can disguise himself as a woman's human husband (+10 for intimate familiarity) as long as she has a Spot modifier of 6 or less.

 :eh ... peek-a-boo
Your codpiece is a mimic.