Class and Concept: The Swashbuckler Discussion

[Jackinthegreen]

This is the discussion thread for http://www.minmaxboards.com/index.php?topic=10768.0.

[Bearchucks]

Invisible Blade gets feint as a swift action.  The weapons also fit swashbuckler (although, admittedly, they aren't quite as big), but a rogue/swash/IB with daring outlaw isn't that bad off.

[Demelain]

Invisible Blade gets feint as a swift action.  The weapons also fit swashbuckler (although, admittedly, they aren't quite as big), but a rogue/swash/IB with daring outlaw isn't that bad off.

Eh... Unless you use the author's fix, I don't think Invisible Blade is worth taking for anyone. It's at odds with itself as-printed.

[Jackinthegreen]

Invisible Blade gets feint as a swift action.  The weapons also fit swashbuckler (although, admittedly, they aren't quite as big), but a rogue/swash/IB with daring outlaw isn't that bad off.

Eh... Unless you use the author's fix, I don't think Invisible Blade is worth taking for anyone. It's at odds with itself as-printed.

Could you be more specific about how it's at odds with itself?  Could you also post a link to the author's fix?

[Demelain]

Invisible Blade gets feint as a swift action.  The weapons also fit swashbuckler (although, admittedly, they aren't quite as big), but a rogue/swash/IB with daring outlaw isn't that bad off.

Eh... Unless you use the author's fix, I don't think Invisible Blade is worth taking for anyone. It's at odds with itself as-printed.

Could you be more specific about how it's at odds with itself?  Could you also post a link to the author's fix?

Sadly it was lost in the WotC forum. You can still find scattered references to it in Invisible Blade discussion, but I haven't been able to find a complete quote.
It consisted of:
-The invisible Blade was originally designed to be a 10 level prestige class which improved throwing as well as stabbing, but the throwing abilities were cut when it was reduced to a 5-Level PrC
-The pre-req's should thus be changed to Weapon finesse and Weapon Focus (Dagger/Kukri/Punching Dagger), cutting the throwing-related feats
-Unfettered Defence works with Light Armor (because it's capped by class level, it was stronger on the 10 level class)

As far as being at odds with itself, I was referring to two of the entry feats (PBS and Far Shot) being basically useless to you, and completely unrelated to the PrC. The change to the entry requirements lowers the opportunity cost of the PrC significantly.

This is the closest I can find, but since it no longer has the author's name attached, whether or not someone believes it's the author's fix is an issue.

[Jackinthegreen]

I always wondered why that PrC looked so out of place with its prereqs...  Now I know why.

I'll eventually get to doing a proper PrC section, once I have my medical stuff better under control to actually not have a dizzy or nausea spell when I try to do the "work" kind of typing.

[gorfnab]

Here is a "Swashbuckler" type build I came up with a while ago. It focuses on fighting defensively, gaining a huge bonus to AC.

Human or Strongheart Halfling
1. Cobra Strike (UA) Deceptive Strike (PHBII) Monk - Camendine Monk, Combat Expertise, B: Dodge
2. Cobra Strike (UA) Monk - B: Mobility
3. Swashbuckler - Deadly Defense, B: Weapon Finesse
4. Swashbuckler
5. Swashbuckler
6. Thief Acrobat - Combat Reflexes
7. Thief Acrobat
8. Thief Acrobat
9. Thief Acrobat - Einhander
10. Thief Acrobat
11. Warblade
12. Warblade or Duelist - Ironheart Aura
13. Duelist
14. Duelist
15. Duelist - Robilar's Gambit
16. Duelist
17. Duelist
18. Duelist - Stormgaurd Warrior
19. Duelist
20. Duelist

Levels 10 through 12 can be rearranged depending on your needs. The current setup gives you Improved Evasion and Uncanny Dodge at these levels. However if you don't need Improved Evasion take one less level of Thief Acrobat and move the first level of Warblade to level 10. If you don't need Uncanny Dodge don't take the 2nd level of Warblade and instead go into Duelist a level early. If you don't need either abilities take Warblade at level 10 and enter Duelist at level 11.

If flaws are available pick up EWP: Broadblade Shortsword (pre-errata version if possible) or Versatile Unarmed Strike and Snap Kick (may need to rearrange later feats). If traits are available pick up Cautious.

The Monk and Swashbuckler levels (levels 1 through 5) can be switched around to taste. I personally like Swash 1/ Monk 2/ Swash 2

[Ananse]

The Invisible Blade and the Master Thrower are the same class, separated by incompetent editor/designers:

http://web.archive.org/web/20080416112623/forums.gleemax.com/wotc_archive/index.php/t-139190

I just posted this explanation in another thread, but I thought it might be better served here, as per the title of this thread.

The 5-level invisible blade that first appeared in Dragon (and then recently in The Complete Warrior) was edited down from my original 10-level progression. The abilities and text are the same, but there were some additional dagger throwing abilities built into the prestige class (to round it out).

The editors at Dragon had asked me to change the invisible blade prerequisites to reflect their ranged-based abilities, but when they later changed the invisible blade into a 5-level prestige class (and removed the dagger throwing abilities), they likely forgot to change the prerequisites as well.

To use the printed version of the invisible blade as is, simply change the prerequisites feats to:

Weapon Focus (dagger, kukri, or punching dagger) and Weapon Finesse.

I hope that helps.

[Jackinthegreen]

The Invisible Blade/Master Thrower issue might deserve its own mini-handbook, along with other "unofficial official" tweaks like the one for Hexblades.

When I get around to the PrC section, I'll mention some of the stuff with that.

Gorfnab, I believe you meant the Decisive Strike variant as well as the Carmendine Monk feat.  You also don't seem to have Superior Expertise/Improved Combat Expertise in your build to get an even higher AC bonus.  Intentional?

I recall there's also the Dancing with Shadows feat that you might want to think about making a build around if Combat Expertise is your thing.

[gorfnab]

Gorfnab, I believe you meant the Decisive Strike variant as well as the Carmendine Monk feat.  You also don't seem to have Superior Expertise/Improved Combat Expertise in your build to get an even higher AC bonus.  Intentional?

I recall there's also the Dancing with Shadows feat that you might want to think about making a build around if Combat Expertise is your thing.

That's what I get for typing on my phone...
The build is mostly based on fighting defensively and not really using Combat Expertise, though Improved and Superior Combat Expertise could be added in later on. Good catch on Dancing With Shadows, however that would require flaws and different race option.