Controlling 21 HD undead creature at level 16

[Nameless Void]

Is there a way to Rubuke/Control a 21HD Undead at level 16?

I have an idea for a build and want to rebuke a 21HD undead to be my minion. Problem is, Clerics can turn their level +4 maximum (20HD Creature).

Any ideas?

[Agita]

For starters, you can increase your effective turning level. Simply spending a feat slot on Improved Turning will increase it to 17, which puts you in range of a 21 HD creature.
Controlling rather than rebuking the creature is more of a problem, since you need to be twice its level. I'm not sure how to do that, having never played around with turning and rebuking much, but there's probably a way.

[Maat Mons]

Doomdreamer (Return to the Temple of Elemental Evil, p162) has an ability that doubles your level for rebuking and commanding undead.  If you have an int bonus of at least +5, you can select the ability at the 1st level of the class.  The class doesn't stack with cleric for turning level, oddly enough.  Anyway, the multiplier can be applied after whatever other bonuses you've got, so you can hit your target if you can scrape together +6 to your effective level. 

I could have sworn I posted about doomdreamer in the fun finds thread, but it turns out I didn't. 

[littha]

Generally you would use Animate Dead for such a creature rather than trying to rebuke one. Otherwise you are probably stuck with the Command Undead spell as I dont think there are enough rebuking bonuses to control a creature that strong.

[Maat Mons]

I looked into it further, and it can definitely be done (with room to spare) by a cleric 15 / doomdreamer 1 with a phylactery of undead turning and a rod of defiance.  Your effective level for rebuking undead is ( 15 (base) + 4 (phylactery) ) *2 (doomdreamer), so 38.  That lets you command undead with up to 19 hit dice.  The rod of defiance reduces the 21-hit-die creature to 17 effective hit dice, 2 under your limit. 

You won't want to let the thing get more than 30 feet from that rod until you gain a couple levels though.  Maybe you should have it wield the rod itself, in a locked gauntlet. 

[Nunkuruji]

Non Cleric answer...

Be a Druid and cast Bone Talisman which is based on CL instead of level. Use usual CL boosting methods to get it as high as necessary.

[zook1shoe]

Scepter of the Underworld gives +3 level and Talisman of Undead Mastery gives +4 using all of its daily charges

[Nameless Void]

I love you guys. THANKS!!!

[Rebel7284]

Non Cleric answer...

Be a Druid and cast Bone Talisman which is based on CL instead of level. Use usual CL boosting methods to get it as high as necessary.

That doesn't give a rebuking option though... just turning.

[JaronK]

A Rod of Defiance reduces the Turn Resistance of a creature by 4, as does the Lyre of the Restful Soul (and these stack).  That lets you try to rebuke a 13 HD creature instead... which is much easier.

JaronK

[zook1shoe]

Nice!

[Saxony]

I had a Cleric that had huge rebuking abilities once. All the characters I put effort in have txt files with all or most of the planning involved.

Here's some notes I had saved, copy and pasted. Note that any bonus to turning level boosts rebuking level because they are the same ability (at least as far as that is considered).

So all this combined should work for you. However you need a firm grasp of how rebuking and commanding works to actually make use of all this. So READ THE REBUKING RULES CAREFULLY. The big tricks can be subtle.

....

-turnings/day bonus sources:
nightstick: LibMort (7500gp), +4 turning attempts per day, 7.5kgp
reliquary holy symbol, MiC (1000gp), Up to +3 turning attempts per day, 1kgp

-Control limit bonus sources
rod of undead mastery: LibMort (10,000gp), double the amount of undead you can control via Animate Dead.

-undead effective HD debuff sources
rod of defiance: MiC (13000gp from LibMort) undead effectively have -4HD for turning/rebuking purposes.
lyre of restful dead: LibMort (3000gp), succeed on DC 15 perform string instruments check, undead within 30 feet have -4HD for purposes of turning for 10 rounds.

-Turning level bonus sources.
Divine energy focus (feat), Ghostwalk, +2 effective level. +2 on-top to turning checks and turning damage.
scepter of the netherworld (9000 gp), Libris Mortis, +3 to turning level.
"sacred" shield/armor special ability (+2 enchancement bonus cost- at least 18,000gp for a +3 shield with a +2 ability), +2 to turning level and turning check
phylactery/amulet of undead turning (11000 gp), DMG, +4 to effective turning level
Improved Turning (feat), PHB, +1 effective turning level
ephod of authority (800g), Magic Item Compendium, +1 turning level
flametouched iron holy symbol (750g) Eberron, +1 turning level
Talisman of undead mastery:(3000 gp) MiC, +2 turning level per charge spent, 3 charges/day, +1 turning level per extra charge spent.
rod of authority: (20576gp), Defenders of Faith, +4 cleric level for turning.

Item name, effective turning level increase, gold/level increase ratio
Defiance: +8, 13000 .615
Lyre: +8, 3000 2.666
Scepter:+3, 9000 .333
Sacred: +2, 18000 (+3 cost) .11
Sacred: +2, 18000 (+3 cost).11
Phylactery: +4, 11000 .3636
Ephod: +1, 800 1.25
flamtouched: +1, 750 1.333
Talisman of UM: +2, 3000 .6666
rod of authority: +4, .19

[JaronK]

Note that the Rod of Defiance is cheaper in MiC but still as effective for this purpose.

JaronK

[zook1shoe]

Deathbound domain gives +50% undead HD command

[PlzBreakMyCampaign]

It's so cute when people forget about my world record. Its been on the internet for years.

Hmm Level 16. I'll see your 21HD and raise you ... um... 200.

Commanding with spells is different than Commanding with rebuke. With rebuke, my build can get a SINGLE TWO HUNDRED HIT DIE EPIC CREATURE and make it his bitch.

But having lots of skeletons is good too.

[zook1shoe]

i found a way to do 245 HD controlled last night with only cleric and a single PrC levels, no other mods

+ Magical Training + Arcane Disciple (deathbound domain) = 367

w Arcane Disciple just choose a deity that has the Deathbound domain, it doesn't say you need to worship them, you just need to have an alignment component.

[Saxony]

Deathbound domain gives +50% undead HD command

No.

Your limit for controlling undead animated
with spells increases to three times your caster level instead of
the normal two times caster level.

It increases your ability to control undead animated with spells, not with rebuking.

[zook1shoe]

Ok, I was going off memory...

so 297 instead

Aligned Theurgy + evil domain = [(wiz + clr+2) x7.5 + (clr + PrC) x7] 455

this is only 3 feats, 2domains, and 2 classes.

[Saxony]

Nice

[zook1shoe]

And the winning PrC is..... *ding ding ding*... Necrotheurge of Chemosh in Dragonlance's Holy Orders of the Stars.