Best Class for Skills?

[Raineh Daze]

I'm thinking Aboleth. 6+Int, but one of its class features is a skill that functions as every knowledge check for every purpose. I suppose the biggest problem would be its becoming cross-class after level 7, and therefore expensive to take...

Which makes me consider this: Aboleth 1//Scholar 19 (from the ToBhou stuff). So much Knowledge.

Though I am amused that the way Knowledge (Eons) works (it counts as every Knowledge skill. This isn't restricted to those that actually get written down. There doesn't appear to be anything preventing Knowledge (Fundamentals of Origami)), you can end up with an effectively infinite knowledge check whenever in a Plain History stance. Combine that with any of the Scholar class features for +infinite damage and critical threat.

[DavidWL]

gods are pretty bunk for skills ...

Divine Characteristics: (god skill / god ability / god mastery / god perfection)
Salient Ability (Divine Skill Focus)
... thems a lot of bonuses to skills.

Dvati, at the cost of 1 level, can aid another (with each other) with amazing alacrity

Paragon could get +14 to int, which is a lot of bonus to int-based skills and many extra skill points.

The able learner feat will prevent skills from becoming cross-class.

Best,
David

[Raineh Daze]

If you are channelling all of a god's abilities into skill bonuses, something is quite, quite up. Divine Characteristics really don't help that much with skill boosts, and I don't think they get that many skills. With their chassis and actual class features, focusing on skills like that seems a death sentence.

Paragon is good for pretty much anything and isn't a base class besides. I probably wasn't clear enough: base classes, preferably without taking an axe to the character.

And Able Learner requires being human, which is no good for, say, Aboleths.

[Amechra]

Obviously you go Factotum from Aboleth.

Barring that, I'm pretty sure that the Monster Hybrid would allow you to take levels in Aboleth while still being a human. I think.

[DavidWL]

If you are channelling all of a god's abilities into skill bonuses, something is quite, quite up. Divine Characteristics really don't help that much with skill boosts, and I don't think they get that many skills. With their chassis and actual class features, focusing on skills like that seems a death sentence.

Human Factotum 1/God 19 (Int High) w/ Able Learner
* Divine Skill - + level to skill check (2/HD) ~ +19
* God Mastery - max roll (1/HD) ~ +10
* Divine Skill Focus - + level to max rank skill checks (~ 4?)

So, for about 1/4th of a gods resources, you get:
* +29 to most skill rolls (assuming <= 19 per day)
* another +19 to each of 4 skills (assuming you max that many skills)
* While you're at it, throw in "Alter Reality", with a domain of "Skill", and you can cast things like improvisation, Weildskill, Feat Leach, Divine Insight, ...

That doesn't seem shabby, especially when you realize that 14 of the 19 god picks both for divine characteristics and salient abilities are still open...

Compare that to an aboleth, which gets ~+23 to all knowledge skills (except 1).

Best,
David

[Raineh Daze]

First things first: don't use God at 20 HD upwards as a comparison for anything. The abilities get blatantly insane at that point, much like any of the other epic monsters (go take a look at the Hecatoncheires some time). So the '+10' is actually just getting the average. That's +28, sure, but a pretty good way to waste three levels.

* Divine Skill Focus - + level to max rank skill checks (~ 4?)

No, +level to one maxed skill. Gods only get 2+Int skillpoints, so even with high Int, you don't want to be relying on that. Total waste of salient abilities.

Compare that to an aboleth, which gets ~+23 to all knowledge skills (except 1).

+23 to all knowledge skills from ranks alone, with investment in all of them for only one skill. Hell of a lot easier to buff that one skill to huge numbers than all the knowledges. More skills. More use for the knowledge skills it has. Can play merry hell with Knowledge Devotion.

Anyway, Human Factotum 1 with Able Learner going into a template class is completely the wrong sort of thing. This is a monster board, it's not really a monster when it's got human racial abilities and a class before being a monster.

So, how about actual monsters rather than God or Paragon? As I said above, Base Class. Preferably without Human + Monster Blooded + Monster Hybrid + Able Learner. The question I'm asking is 'which monster is best for skills', not 'which mix-and-match template is best for skills'. If possible, something that gets a benefit out of having high skills that isn't 'I have high skills' would be nice.

[DavidWL]

Anyway, Human Factotum 1 with Able Learner going into a template class is completely the wrong sort of thing. This is a monster board, it's not really a monster when it's got human racial abilities and a class before being a monster.

So, how about actual monsters rather than God or Paragon? As I said above, Base Class. Preferably without Human + Monster Blooded + Monster Hybrid + Able Learner. The question I'm asking is 'which monster is best for skills', not 'which mix-and-match template is best for skills'. If possible, something that gets a benefit out of having high skills that isn't 'I have high skills' would be nice.

Fair enough.  Aboleth is an obvious win.

Throwing some things out:
* Mindflayer 8/ Ulitharid 4 --> +12 to Int, take feat "Skill Prodigy" for + int bonus class skills.  Also can take skill-specific spells with Ulitharid
* Mindstealer Drone --> have a large number of bodies with different skills
* Deepspawn --> Spawn a child with any skills you need (sort of counts)

Note that none of these have special benefits from high skills, but no monster class I can think of get's special benefits from skills except Illurian.

Best,
David

[Raineh Daze]

Mm, so monster classes pretty much suck at this.

[oslecamo]

By all means remind me, how many classes out there benefit from high skills again?

Though I am amused that the way Knowledge (Eons) works (it counts as every Knowledge skill. This isn't restricted to those that actually get written down. There doesn't appear to be anything preventing Knowledge (Fundamentals of Origami)), you can end up with an effectively infinite knowledge check whenever in a Plain History stance. Combine that with any of the Scholar class features for +infinite damage and critical threat.

Not exactly, since altough the number of knowledges replicated by Eons may be infinite, the number of ranks you invested on it is still limited.

[Raineh Daze]

By all means remind me, how many classes out there benefit from high skills again?

Martial Adepts, Warlocks (they have that fun UMD thing going on), Artificer due to crafting, Rogues sort of due to the way skills are created?

Though I am amused that the way Knowledge (Eons) works (it counts as every Knowledge skill. This isn't restricted to those that actually get written down. There doesn't appear to be anything preventing Knowledge (Fundamentals of Origami)), you can end up with an effectively infinite knowledge check whenever in a Plain History stance. Combine that with any of the Scholar class features for +infinite damage and critical threat.

Not exactly, since altough the number of knowledges replicated by Eons may be infinite, the number of ranks you invested on it is still limited.

Pooled Knowledge causes you to gain a bonus on knowledge checks equal to the number of maxed knowledge skills you have, correct? Because there's nothing specifying that Knowledge (Eons) only counts as 1-11 (eleven being the maximum number of useful knowledge skills there are, including psionics) knowledge skills, that grants plus infinity to every knowledge check. The bonuses Scholars can grant from knowledge checks are unbounded.

Really, the only issue is that it can keep counting itself for Pooled Knowledge until everything implodes...

[oslecamo]

By all means remind me, how many classes out there benefit from high skills again?

Martial Adepts, Warlocks (they have that fun UMD thing going on), Artificer due to crafting, Rogues sort of due to the way skills are created?

If martial adepts count, then monster classes that come with maneuvers count as well, and there's quite a bit of those around here.

If rogues count, then pretty much  every monster classes counts because last time I checked their skills are created in the exact same way.

Though I am amused that the way Knowledge (Eons) works (it counts as every Knowledge skill. This isn't restricted to those that actually get written down. There doesn't appear to be anything preventing Knowledge (Fundamentals of Origami)), you can end up with an effectively infinite knowledge check whenever in a Plain History stance. Combine that with any of the Scholar class features for +infinite damage and critical threat.

Not exactly, since altough the number of knowledges replicated by Eons may be infinite, the number of ranks you invested on it is still limited.

Pooled Knowledge causes you to gain a bonus on knowledge checks equal to the number of maxed knowledge skills you have, correct? Because there's nothing specifying that Knowledge (Eons) only counts as 1-11 (eleven being the maximum number of useful knowledge skills there are, including psionics) knowledge skills, that grants plus infinity to every knowledge check. The bonuses Scholars can grant from knowledge checks are unbounded.

Really, the only issue is that it can keep counting itself for Pooled Knowledge until everything implodes...

If you only have maxed out Knowledge(Eons), then you have exactly one Knowledge skill maxed out. You can use it to answer a question on any topic, but is still just one skillmaxed out.

[Raineh Daze]

By all means remind me, how many classes out there benefit from high skills again?

Martial Adepts, Warlocks (they have that fun UMD thing going on), Artificer due to crafting, Rogues sort of due to the way skills are created?

If martial adepts count, then monster classes that come with maneuvers count as well, and there's quite a bit of those around here.

If rogues count, then pretty much  every monster classes counts because last time I checked their skills are created in the exact same way.

More that only rogues can find 'difficult' traps. Silly, really.

[oslecamo]

Out of the top of my head, Gloom, Neogi, Skaven Eshin Agent, Midgard Dwarf and Doppelganger all gain Trapfinding as the Rogue class. Several other monster classes have sinergy with rogues, meaning they want to multiclass with it anyway.

[Raineh Daze]

Half the reason I made this thread is my utterly atrocious memory.

Midgard Dwarf seems pretty good for skills, I guess.

[Amechra]

Aboleth 5/Illurien 15 (using Monster Hybrid) is quite scary.

Though I do have to ask... How does Overwhelming Intellect interact with Monster Lord? Does the fact that you count as Huge give you the bonus to CL and inflict the penalty on saves as if you were Huge, or would you count as Medium?

[Draconas]

If you want skills besides Knowledge(which is already covered by aboleth) the Doppelganger classes are good. They all have 8+int modifier skills, and all skill are class skills for them.

[Amechra]

Illurien also gets the same deal, though they are going to be spending a lot of those points on Knowledge skills...

[oslecamo]

Though I do have to ask... How does Overwhelming Intellect interact with Monster Lord? Does the fact that you count as Huge give you the bonus to CL and inflict the penalty on saves as if you were Huge, or would you count as Medium?

You count as Huge.