Author Topic: Player Thinks Too Outside of the Box  (Read 10382 times)

Offline kevin video

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Player Thinks Too Outside of the Box
« on: July 31, 2013, 11:12:04 PM »
So I'm doing up an adventure path from Paizo and one of my players is a veteran D&D gamer. Been playing for a couple of decades, but he's always played in games with groups that never did pre-written adventures. In those groups he was allowed to homebrew everything. He could come up with his own spells, his own race, take whatever 3PP he wanted or didn't want to, and he almost never received a "no" from other DMs when he came up with an elaborate plot that got him out of having involve himself into a fight (mostly because he was always a wizard with very little hit points).

I am not like that. I don't do homebrew. I will allow 3PP so long as it's not obviously broken. And if there's no written mechanics, chances are you can't do what you want to no matter how elaborate or well thought out you want something. I'm not alone in this either. There's another GM that he and I both play under that's even more limiting than I am. With that GM, he never questions it. However, with me, he constantly does. To the point that he'll ignore the game and have his character leave the situation altogether and not help because he didn't get his way. It's getting to the point that I'm considering stepping down for a bit. Another GM friend I've talked to about this says that it's not the player, but the adventure itself. I'll see how it goes now that we've finished the first book, but I'm not overly hopeful. The atmosphere's not all that great with the group either. I've told a couple of players that I'm thinking of stepping down to have another GM take over for a couple of sessions, and they aren't too happy about that because they like me being the GM.

To give an example for how outside thinking he is, the party managed to get a bunch of sick guards to hole themself up in their barracks. Inside was a wizard with a wand of fire resistance and magic circle against elements (3PP spell). The player in question decided that if that's where everyone was going to hide, then he'd make them all die in there. He decided he didn't want to fight, just burn everyone alive, or make them suffocate (he's LE). So his plan was to get as much flammable items as possible and fans the flames that the barracks either burned down or at least filled with smoke. He got very angry with me when I told him the plan wouldn't work. The doors weren't wooden, and they were too low to the ground for them to properly fan the smoke under the room. He got even more frustrated when it turned into a brawl, even though it was obviously one-sided in their favor (sick guards can't really defend themselves very well). He wanted to completely avoid that altogether, but I was apparently too narrow-minded and inexperienced. He also didn't like that a wizard had a spell that was never brought up before until that exact session. Accused me of Deus Ex Machina. He didn't involve himself in the fight, and just read the rule book. When it was his turn, he just kept passing to the next player.

I don't want there to be bad blood because I don't want him to leave. I play with him in another game, and I've already ran one campaign with my group for over a year without any issues whatsoever. It's not until this exact campaign that he and I have started butting heads. Maybe my GM friend is right. Maybe it is the campaign.

Just not sure what to do. I've already talked to the player, and he's apologized for his frustration, but it likely won't be the last time this happens.
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Offline MirddinEmris

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Re: Player Thinks Too Outside of the Box
« Reply #1 on: August 01, 2013, 05:36:15 AM »
No to sound judjemental, but i don't think his problem is in "thinking too outside the box". The word "spoiled" comes to mind, actually.

Offline Chemus

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Re: Player Thinks Too Outside of the Box
« Reply #2 on: August 01, 2013, 06:04:54 AM »
As a player, if that wand wasn't in the adventure, and the GM had been riding me about 3rd party material, I'd be upset too. Additionally, if this barracks were not described as being fire resistent, say perhaps of dwarven make, why couldn't his idea work? Doors usually have space so they don't scrape the floor

If he's bypassing most of the fights,thus preventing mundanes from shining, that's a different story.Tell him about your concern. Better, try to use similar thinking against the party. Without changing his play style, it could improve the encounter balance. If the party has to escape from the burning inn they are sleeping in, there's lots of room for the lateral thinker to,  well, think laterally.

If the trouble is that the adventure isn't flexible enough for so many sideways ideas, ask him to tone it down a bit. Maybe he'll pick up on what you're laying down.
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Offline kevin video

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Re: Player Thinks Too Outside of the Box
« Reply #3 on: August 01, 2013, 06:15:21 AM »
As a player, if that wand wasn't in the adventure, and the GM had been riding me about 3rd party material, I'd be upset too. Additionally, if this barracks were not described as being fire resistent, say perhaps of dwarven make, why couldn't his idea work? Doors usually have space so they don't scrape the floor

If he's bypassing most of the fights,thus preventing mundanes from shining, that's a different story.Tell him about your concern. Better, try to use similar thinking against the party. Without changing his play style, it could improve the encounter balance. If the party has to escape from the burning inn they are sleeping in, there's lots of room for the lateral thinker to,  well, think laterally.

If the trouble is that the adventure isn't flexible enough for so many sideways ideas, ask him to tone it down a bit. Maybe he'll pick up on what you're laying down.
The wand is 3PP and isn't in the adventure, but I had to come up with something because his wizard is a fire specialist, as was the wizard he was facing off against. When you use the same spells over and over, eventually something has get in your way and prevent you. My doing that was specifically to get him to stop using the exact same spells regularly. You'd think he'd learn that you shouldn't be doing that considering 9 times out of 10 he'll play a wizard.

The castle was of dwarven work. He knew that. There were even a small garrison of dwarven engineers working for the castle who were solely paid to keep up the defenses.

I don't think any pre-written adventure is flexible enough for too many sideways ideas, let alone homebrew games. There's not really mechanics set up for that, and I'm not going to make some up.
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Offline kevin video

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Re: Player Thinks Too Outside of the Box
« Reply #4 on: August 01, 2013, 06:16:04 AM »
No to sound judjemental, but i don't think his problem is in "thinking too outside the box". The word "spoiled" comes to mind, actually.
That was one of the words another GM had for him during the convention he participated in, among other ones.
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Offline RobbyPants

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Re: Player Thinks Too Outside of the Box
« Reply #5 on: August 01, 2013, 09:40:57 AM »
The wand is 3PP and isn't in the adventure, but I had to come up with something because his wizard is a fire specialist, as was the wizard he was facing off against. When you use the same spells over and over, eventually something has get in your way and prevent you. My doing that was specifically to get him to stop using the exact same spells regularly. You'd think he'd learn that you shouldn't be doing that considering 9 times out of 10 he'll play a wizard.
Obviously, the DM has the ability to modify a published adventure, but if he knows you've modified it in a way to specifically screw him over, him getting mad is actually understandable. You're not doing it to be mean, but to force him to diversify, but from his perspective, he might perceive it as an attack against him.


I don't think any pre-written adventure is flexible enough for too many sideways ideas, let alone homebrew games. There's not really mechanics set up for that, and I'm not going to make some up.
Personally, I see this attitude as a problem. The reason we play D&D instead of a board game is, in part, because it can represent a much larger play space. The rules written only cover much of the most likely things that can happen, but there are plenty of voids (like fanning smoke into a room). While there may be many legitimate reasons for you to say no to a tactic, the fact that there aren't rules is no excuse in and of itself. My advice would be to pick some similar existing mechanic, and go from there. Sure, it will involve a fair amount of MTP (at least the first time the rule is used), but you could figure that X squares are filled each turn, then at some point, people become sickened (DC X), then as the smoke thickens, they become nauseated, and eventually, they can suffocate. Sure, you have to make something up for rates of smoke spreading and setting a DC, but there is plenty of traction in the rules for smoke sickening, nauseating, or killing people.

If you feel the dwarven craft of the place would stop him from doing so, explain that up front, but don't use it as a justification to look for reasons to shut him down, simply because you don't want to make an ad hoc ruling on something. I've played in games where the DM slowly reveals more and more details to shut down any tactics that aren't The One True Path, and it's frustrating.


That being said, he is being a complete tool as far as not acting on his turn, and he should be called out on that.

TL;DR: Don't say no just because there aren't rules, if the idea is otherwise feasible, and don't let the player just sit there in combat because he's throwing a hissy fit.
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Offline kevin video

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Re: Player Thinks Too Outside of the Box
« Reply #6 on: August 01, 2013, 03:38:51 PM »
I agree that he can be mad about my changing things up a bit, but my reasoning was valid. When you're a fire wizard, and you're going to be going up against another fire wizard, you're going to research and try find something that will make it harder for the other wizard to be effective. It's even more important if you know that all of his spells are a single element. I mean, for someone who has played a wizard a majority of their gaming life, you'd think he'd know better than to have only fire spells memorized. I even asked him "do you not have magic missile memorized?" Apparently not because he pulled out his light crossbow and stood there.

When I explained the structure to him, I gave him the dice checks for engineering to let him know that his plan wasn't nearly as sound as he was trying to make it seem. The room he was trying to smoke was 110 x 40 ft and had a window in it. The room he was trying to set the fire in was 10 x 30 ft with no windows. One of these rooms will fill up faster than the others, even if you're "fanning" the smoke in one direction. It's physics. He knew that. He even had access to the map. Even if his room didn't fill up with smoke, for it to have been effective it would have taken hours to suffocate the guards, and they had decent Fort saves.
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Offline RobbyPants

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Re: Player Thinks Too Outside of the Box
« Reply #7 on: August 01, 2013, 09:59:29 PM »
When I explained the structure to him, I gave him the dice checks for engineering to let him know that his plan wasn't nearly as sound as he was trying to make it seem. The room he was trying to smoke was 110 x 40 ft and had a window in it. The room he was trying to set the fire in was 10 x 30 ft with no windows. One of these rooms will fill up faster than the others, even if you're "fanning" the smoke in one direction. It's physics. He knew that. He even had access to the map. Even if his room didn't fill up with smoke, for it to have been effective it would have taken hours to suffocate the guards, and they had decent Fort saves.
That's fine, and seems reasonable. Most of my post was directed at this comment you made:

I don't think any pre-written adventure is flexible enough for too many sideways ideas, let alone homebrew games. There's not really mechanics set up for that, and I'm not going to make some up.
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Offline kevin video

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Re: Player Thinks Too Outside of the Box
« Reply #8 on: August 01, 2013, 11:10:36 PM »
That's fine, and seems reasonable. Most of my post was directed at this comment you made:

I don't think any pre-written adventure is flexible enough for too many sideways ideas, let alone homebrew games. There's not really mechanics set up for that, and I'm not going to make some up.
That's fair. I just wanted to show that I had pointed things out to him, whether he wanted to accept things or not.
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Offline NunoM

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Re: Player Thinks Too Outside of the Box
« Reply #9 on: August 01, 2013, 11:46:15 PM »
By what i could gather from your posts, the main issue was the fact that you "found" a way to effectively counteract the character's main strength. Suddenly he got engaged in a fight he couldn't do anything about. If he really "thought out of the box", he could probably figure out some other ways to circumvent the other fire wizard (ex.: Wand of Energy Substitution).
Besides, as a veteran player, i'm sure he knows that fire is one of the most common immunities out there. Heck, a lowly "Resist Energy" scales well to soak up some damage from it, and you even get to choose the energy type.
If not now, he's bound to get a lot more frustrated in the future, if he doesn't understand that his (and the party's) actions are noticed, studied and counteracted by opponents...

As you said, you already talked to him and that's good.

The only thing i could probably hold against you, is the wand coming in out of the blue, especially if some 3rd party spells, items, etc. weren't already in play. If you mentioned that 3PP is allowed prior to this event, it's ok; if not, i can understand his frustration for being caught off-guard like that.

Offline kevin video

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Re: Player Thinks Too Outside of the Box
« Reply #10 on: August 02, 2013, 12:00:45 AM »
By what i could gather from your posts, the main issue was the fact that you "found" a way to effectively counteract the character's main strength. Suddenly he got engaged in a fight he couldn't do anything about. If he really "thought out of the box", he could probably figure out some other ways to circumvent the other fire wizard (ex.: Wand of Energy Substitution).
Besides, as a veteran player, i'm sure he knows that fire is one of the most common immunities out there. Heck, a lowly "Resist Energy" scales well to soak up some damage from it, and you even get to choose the energy type.
If not now, he's bound to get a lot more frustrated in the future, if he doesn't understand that his (and the party's) actions are noticed, studied and counteracted by opponents...

As you said, you already talked to him and that's good.

The only thing i could probably hold against you, is the wand coming in out of the blue, especially if some 3rd party spells, items, etc. weren't already in play. If you mentioned that 3PP is allowed prior to this event, it's ok; if not, i can understand his frustration for being caught off-guard like that.
3PP stuff is openly welcomed in my games so long as I get to check it out first. I'm always curious as to what they come up with.

As for the wizard, I think part of his issue is that for the past two levels, he's been unchallenged. He'd go in, do his spells, and win. Then all of a sudden, another wizard that survived the barrage thanks to a teleport, and had a week to prepare, stopped him.
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Offline veekie

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Re: Player Thinks Too Outside of the Box
« Reply #11 on: August 02, 2013, 05:30:54 AM »
Sounds like spoiled is an appropriate reading then. When you specialize, sometimes you encounter fights that counter your specialty. That is part of the costs of overspecializing. That he's complaining about customizing the adventure path makes me think he might be missing the point somewhere, that sort of variety is good, and pretty much the main reason why you have GMs for modules. In this specific case, an enemy he fought got away knowing his speciality, so making a pitstop to buy a fairly common wand is to be expected, though to be honest the fire resistance applied to all the enemies would have shut him down just fine without a magic circle.

For the smoke plan, it sounded like he thought he came up with a brilliant plan, and then simply refused to do anything other than it. Of course, personally I'd have supplemented the failure a bit. With the right checks, he might for example, be able to find something which produces a particularly irritating, poisonous or sleep inducing smoke, but it looks like you produced that outcome anyway and he still wasn't satisfied.
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Offline Necrosnoop110

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Re: Player Thinks Too Outside of the Box
« Reply #12 on: August 02, 2013, 06:23:55 PM »
Sorry, 3PP = ??? (I'm tentatively assuming third party material but what's the second P for?)

Offline Jackinthegreen

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Re: Player Thinks Too Outside of the Box
« Reply #13 on: August 02, 2013, 06:33:52 PM »
Sorry, 3PP = ??? (I'm tentatively assuming third party material but what's the second P for?)

3rd Party Publishers is what it's referring to I believe.

Offline kevin video

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Re: Player Thinks Too Outside of the Box
« Reply #14 on: August 02, 2013, 07:33:56 PM »
Sorry, 3PP = ??? (I'm tentatively assuming third party material but what's the second P for?)

3rd Party Publishers is what it's referring to I believe.
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Offline NunoM

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Re: Player Thinks Too Outside of the Box
« Reply #15 on: August 02, 2013, 08:24:50 PM »
...
3PP stuff is openly welcomed in my games so long as I get to check it out first. I'm always curious as to what they come up with.

As for the wizard, I think part of his issue is that for the past two levels, he's been unchallenged. He'd go in, do his spells, and win. Then all of a sudden, another wizard that survived the barrage thanks to a teleport, and had a week to prepare, stopped him.

As i pointed out, that was probably the only thing i would hold against you. If everything's already laid out for everyone, then the player has no grounds for his claims... He can't complain if some intelligent foe finally figured out how to lock him down.

Regarding his plan. The DMs in our group usually hear the plans and point out some flaws in them, if any (yes, you did that). If the player insists in the plan, it's all good... Let him do it, and then Murphy's Law comes into play. Appropriately high DCs, rolling percentile dices for extreme chances of something going right, etc... Usually the plans fail, but when they do manage to work there's the chance for a memorable event happening!
We follow the rule of "It's really difficult, but maybe not impossible...". The characters are heroes after all ;)

In your case, you could probably let the player go along with his plan. If he managed to start the fire, and the party didn't suffocate in the room, they would probably give up on the plan after a few hours with no real results (% dice rolling would probably be in order for this, i'd give it a 5% chance)... the dwarves would probably still be alive, the door would still be as firm as ever, nothing would have changed and he would have accomplished absolutely nothing with his plan - but you did warn him about it in advance...
« Last Edit: August 02, 2013, 08:31:02 PM by NunoM »

Offline kevin video

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Re: Player Thinks Too Outside of the Box
« Reply #16 on: August 02, 2013, 08:33:14 PM »
The characters are heroes after all ;)
In this case the characters are the villains. They're minions working their way up to being the masters.
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Offline Jackinthegreen

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Re: Player Thinks Too Outside of the Box
« Reply #17 on: August 02, 2013, 08:35:38 PM »
The characters are heroes after all ;)
In this case the characters are the villains. They're minions working their way up to being the masters.

Perhaps replace "heroes" with "characters currently being focused on, and thus having them do memorable and/or awesome stuff makes the story more interesting."

Offline kevin video

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Re: Player Thinks Too Outside of the Box
« Reply #18 on: August 03, 2013, 02:48:41 AM »
Talked with the player tonight, in great detail. Turns out he's not having fun with the adventure path as it's very hack and slash. It doesn't have the room for real thinking. He'll give the next book a try, but if the writing style's the same, he doesn't think he'll be able to enjoy it.
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Offline LordBlades

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Re: Player Thinks Too Outside of the Box
« Reply #19 on: August 06, 2013, 02:06:15 AM »
When you use the same spells over and over, eventually something has get in your way and prevent you. My doing that was specifically to get him to stop using the exact same spells regularly.

Why exactly? I mean yes, I know it's a bad idea, but for the most part, 90% of the non-casters have to be doing the same stuff over and over for the whole campaign because they don't really have a way  to radically alter their feat selection and class features from day to day. Does 'something have to get in the way and prevent' them too?