Author Topic: Player Thinks Too Outside of the Box  (Read 10392 times)

Offline linklord231

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Re: Player Thinks Too Outside of the Box
« Reply #20 on: August 06, 2013, 02:31:26 AM »
When you use the same spells over and over, eventually something has get in your way and prevent you. My doing that was specifically to get him to stop using the exact same spells regularly.

Why exactly? I mean yes, I know it's a bad idea, but for the most part, 90% of the non-casters have to be doing the same stuff over and over for the whole campaign because they don't really have a way  to radically alter their feat selection and class features from day to day. Does 'something have to get in the way and prevent' them too?

Depends on whether you value verisimilitude higher than balance, which is 100% a matter of preference.  The reason casters get singled out for this so often is because allowing them to spam the same 4 spells every encounter with no resistance goes against both. 
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Offline kevin video

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Re: Player Thinks Too Outside of the Box
« Reply #21 on: August 06, 2013, 02:52:45 AM »
Why exactly? I mean yes, I know it's a bad idea, but for the most part, 90% of the non-casters have to be doing the same stuff over and over for the whole campaign because they don't really have a way  to radically alter their feat selection and class features from day to day. Does 'something have to get in the way and prevent' them too?
If the adventure is built that way? Yes, absolutely. If you're a sorcerer, and you only have fire-based spells known, you're going to be in trouble. You're essentially screwed when the adventure path has red dragons, a phoenix, fiends, etc, coming at you. The nice thing about the wizard is you can work around that with other spells. But again, if all you memorize and put in your book is fire spells, you're going to be in trouble. This wizard was doing exactly that. As for non-casters, they have figure out ways around it. They have weapons of all the metals, they have transmuting, they gain buffs from the casters so that they can hit, etc.
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Offline LordBlades

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Re: Player Thinks Too Outside of the Box
« Reply #22 on: August 06, 2013, 03:34:38 AM »

Depends on whether you value verisimilitude higher than balance, which is 100% a matter of preference.  The reason casters get singled out for this so often is because allowing them to spam the same 4 spells every encounter with no resistance goes against both.

Personally, I go for verisimilitude over balance (which is lacking in 3.5 anyway, so why bother worrying about it). By that I mean non-casters should get similarly countered. If you've spent all your resources into becoming a master swordsman, sooner or later you should encounter groups of smart individuals that have done their homework and will be able to avoid getting into a sword fight with you, even if that effectively renders your character useless.

Also, regarding spamming the same 4 spells over and over, it's rather hard to construct a situation where a list made up of Gate, Wish, Ice Assassin and Mind Rape wouldn't be enough :p

Offline kevin video

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Re: Player Thinks Too Outside of the Box
« Reply #23 on: August 06, 2013, 04:08:24 AM »
Also, regarding spamming the same 4 spells over and over, it's rather hard to construct a situation where a list made up of Gate, Wish, Ice Assassin and Mind Rape wouldn't be enough :p
Oh sure you could. Just never allow the spellcaster to get that high a level, have super awesome saves, or know the right GM that's nerfed those spells to the point of uselessness. Gate? In the group I'm in, if you don't personally know the being you want to call through, that spell's useless to you. Might as well take Summon Monster IX instead. It's very easy to get around everything when the guys you're fighting have Twitter and you don't. Believe me, I've been witness to it enough times.

As for the sword fighter, that's easy to get around. He's really great with his slashing weapon. Can he hit AC 53? Probably not. And even if he could, can his slashing weapon get through my DR X/bludgeoning? No. Now let's make that weapon adamantine or cold iron. Just make sure you also resist the material. Done. There's always ways around it. Just a matter of having buffs on yourself and placing debuffs on your opponent.

I've been in enough games and groups to see DM's absolutely lay waste to players who are proud of their characters.
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Offline LordBlades

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Re: Player Thinks Too Outside of the Box
« Reply #24 on: August 06, 2013, 04:17:39 AM »
Also, regarding spamming the same 4 spells over and over, it's rather hard to construct a situation where a list made up of Gate, Wish, Ice Assassin and Mind Rape wouldn't be enough :p
Oh sure you could. Just never allow the spellcaster to get that high a level, have super awesome saves, or know the right GM that's nerfed those spells to the point of uselessness. Gate? In the group I'm in, if you don't personally know the being you want to call through, that spell's useless to you. Might as well take Summon Monster IX instead. It's very easy to get around everything when the guys you're fighting have Twitter and you don't. Believe me, I've been witness to it enough times.

As the DM you can always push back harder than the PCs do. That's a fact. However, if the PCs push hard enough, you will sooner or later find yourself into the situation where you either pretty much develop a convoluted way of saying 'rocks fall, everybody dies' (the game is no longer playable), or you're playing D20 My House Rules more than D&D 3.5.

As for the sword fighter, that's easy to get around. He's really great with his slashing weapon. Can he hit AC 53? Probably not. And even if he could, can his slashing weapon get through my DR X/bludgeoning? No. Now let's make that weapon adamantine or cold iron. Just make sure you also resist the material. Done. There's always ways around it. Just a matter of having buffs on yourself and placing debuffs on your opponent.

The sword fighter was just an example on countering a non-caster.




I've been in enough games and groups to see DM's absolutely lay waste to players who are proud of their characters.

Same here. I've also seen the reverse though. Players laying waste on campaigns (willingly or not) because they had more system mastery than the DM.

In the end, it's not a player vs. DM game, but rather a game where everybody wants to have fun.

Offline kevin video

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Re: Player Thinks Too Outside of the Box
« Reply #25 on: August 06, 2013, 04:32:18 AM »
I want them to have fun, and I want them to win. Be rather pointless to me if they lost considering the money I spent on the adventure. That being said, I'm not going to give them the win, and I will from time to time remind them that not thinking smartly will cost them and make their character a little useless. One trick ponies don't fly for very long in D&D.
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Offline LordBlades

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Re: Player Thinks Too Outside of the Box
« Reply #26 on: August 06, 2013, 05:03:51 AM »
I want them to have fun, and I want them to win. Be rather pointless to me if they lost considering the money I spent on the adventure. That being said, I'm not going to give them the win, and I will from time to time remind them that not thinking smartly will cost them and make their character a little useless. One trick ponies don't fly for very long in D&D.

Agree. The point I was trying to make in regard to the first post I replied too is that I don't think there should be any kind of double standard between exploiting the weaknesses of characters that are one trick ponies by choice (like this wizard) and can easily fix the issue and exploiting the weaknesses of people that are one trick ponies by class design (most non-casters) and can't do anything to fix the issue beside rolling a new character.

Offline veekie

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Re: Player Thinks Too Outside of the Box
« Reply #27 on: August 06, 2013, 09:49:41 AM »
Well, the difference is how easy it is to shut down. Fire is easy. One spell for resistance and you're done. Making melee entirely useless is a bit more involved.
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Offline LordBlades

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Re: Player Thinks Too Outside of the Box
« Reply #28 on: August 06, 2013, 11:24:49 AM »
Well, the difference is how easy it is to shut down. Fire is easy. One spell for resistance and you're done. Making melee entirely useless is a bit more involved.

Until the mid levels (at least), anything that flies makes non-caster melee useless.

Offline Demelain

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Re: Player Thinks Too Outside of the Box
« Reply #29 on: August 06, 2013, 02:39:47 PM »
Well, the difference is how easy it is to shut down. Fire is easy. One spell for resistance and you're done. Making melee entirely useless is a bit more involved.

Until the mid levels (at least), anything that flies makes non-caster melee useless.

The ability to fly is not a binary choice for melee characters. It is not "buy continuous flight or don't fly at all." There are relatively cheap items with limited uses which a non-caster can acquire and make use of as necessary.

Offline LordBlades

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Re: Player Thinks Too Outside of the Box
« Reply #30 on: August 06, 2013, 04:33:38 PM »
Well, the difference is how easy it is to shut down. Fire is easy. One spell for resistance and you're done. Making melee entirely useless is a bit more involved.

Until the mid levels (at least), anything that flies makes non-caster melee useless.

The ability to fly is not a binary choice for melee characters. It is not "buy continuous flight or don't fly at all." There are relatively cheap items with limited uses which a non-caster can acquire and make use of as necessary.
Like what? I don't really know any item that would allow flight (even limited) and not put a dent into the budget of let's say a 5th level fighter
« Last Edit: August 06, 2013, 04:35:24 PM by LordBlades »

Offline CaptRory

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Re: Player Thinks Too Outside of the Box
« Reply #31 on: August 06, 2013, 06:12:53 PM »
Spiderclimb? Jumping? Some kind of entangling effect to counter winged flying like a Tanglefoot Bag? A longbow?

Specializing is a good thing. It allows you to focus your energies into doing something really well instead of doing a half-ass job at a lot of things. Over Specializing is dangerous. If you use only fire magic, you end up being defeated by any number of random monsters let alone someone going out of the way to build up fire resistance.

The point of a game is for everyone to have fun. As part of that, the GM tries to keep things fresh so the players don't get bored. Part of that is that the players can't solve every problem the same way every time. That is just as boring. Before using a hard counter, I'd talk to the player first, but in the name of fun and realism, the same thing just isn't going to work every time.

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Offline Kethrian

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Re: Player Thinks Too Outside of the Box
« Reply #32 on: August 06, 2013, 09:37:00 PM »
Like what? I don't really know any item that would allow flight (even limited) and not put a dent into the budget of let's say a 5th level fighter

A potion of Fly.  750gp.
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Offline LordBlades

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Re: Player Thinks Too Outside of the Box
« Reply #33 on: August 07, 2013, 02:26:57 AM »
Spiderclimb? Jumping? Some kind of entangling effect to counter winged flying like a Tanglefoot Bag? A longbow?


Spider Climb is dependent on a flying opponent being nice enough to stick within melee range of a wall/ceiling. It's also next to useless outdoors.

Jump DCs scale so quickly that it's futile to try to counter flying by jumping, unless you're really optimizing for it. Jumping  a mere 20 ft. up in the air is DC 40 with running start for example.

Tanglefoot bag is quite a long shot to use as well. It relies on you hitting a ranged touch attack with a 10 ft. increment, and then the opponent failing a DC 15 reflex save. Also, other entangling effects don't necessarily make you fall. It's a rule specific to the Tanglefoot Bag, not the entangled condition.

Longbows might or might not work well, depending on optimization level. If you're an 16 str 12 dex sword&board fighter, shooting a longbow doesn't cause a significant drop in accuracy and/or damage per round. On the other hand, if you're something like a 30+ str 10 dex charge-based pouncing barbarian, odds are shooting a longbow comes very close to doing absolutely nothing(the accuracy and damage per round drop compared to melee is huge).

Potions of Fly are a decent alternative. They're still a pretty big investment for a one-time benefit (which the opponent can circumvent anyway, since 40 ft., can't run isn't that big of a move speed for a flying creature). It also opens you up to 'You used potion of Fly? Lol, brb in 10 minutes.' but that's not something most DMs would do.

Offline veekie

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Re: Player Thinks Too Outside of the Box
« Reply #34 on: August 07, 2013, 04:00:21 AM »
^^
For ranged attacks, the factor is the level of specialization. By the time you're so specialized that your missile attacks have a 10 point gap in accuracy, you should probably have the funds for SOME source of flight, even if it only works for a few rounds each day.

As for flight in general, until the levels where you CAN afford persistent flight, most fliers are melee or short ranged(breath weapons, SLAs with range < 60ft etc), which means they can either engage, or flee, in either case you can count it as a win for the PCs if they flee anyway.


Now a closer example to fire would be a grapple or disarm specialist, after finding out their best tactic, their opponents then start using grease, freedom of movement or locked gauntlets. And that avenue is shut. Same thing for single element damage.
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Offline LordBlades

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Re: Player Thinks Too Outside of the Box
« Reply #35 on: August 07, 2013, 05:28:53 AM »
^^
For ranged attacks, the factor is the level of specialization. By the time you're so specialized that your missile attacks have a 10 point gap in accuracy, you should probably have the funds for SOME source of flight, even if it only works for a few rounds each day.

A barbarian with a starting 18 str, 12 dex has a 5 point gap already at level 1. More if you pick a race with a str bonus (like orc) and/or you consider charge. But yeah, I see your point, most other melees would have a 3-4 point difference at low level. The main problem isn't only accuracy, but also damage. In melee you're probably operating around 2d6+1.5Str+ other bonuses (PA for a 2 to 1 return, and even most low level ToB strikes provide decent damage bonuses). At range, you're down to 1d8+str, and most likely nothing more. Take the aforementioned 18 str 12 dex character. If he's a barbarian with power attack, he attacks for 2d6+11 with rage and PA (avg 19), his ranged damage, even assuming he has a +6 mighty longbow is 1d8+6 (avg 10.5 damage). If he's a Warblade that somehow got bow prof. he could be using Steel Wind for 4d6+12 (avg 28 damage) or Wolf Fang Strike with armor spikes for 3d6+8 (avg 18.5) while with ranged he's down to 1d8+4 (avg 8.5). This is all anecdotal evidence OFC, but as you grow in level the gap increases (exponentially in case of charger builds). Any situation in which you do maybe 20-30% of your regular damage output and your primary role is a damage dealer is a situation in which I'd call that char useless.

As for flight in general, until the levels where you CAN afford persistent flight, most fliers are melee or short ranged(breath weapons, SLAs with range < 60ft etc), which means they can either engage, or flee, in either case you can count it as a win for the PCs if they flee anyway.

A short skim through the SRD of flying monsters of CR<5 and how I think they compare with a fighter that drank a potion of Fly:

Air elementals (small, med, large): Melee only, but with flyby attack and 100 ft. speed. Any attempt of chasing them probably results in being strafed to death. Can be beaten/driven off by playing smart (not chasing him since he has to come in melee if he wants to do damage).

Allip: only 30 ft. speed, but incorporeal, drains wisdom and fighter must beat Will DC 16 not to auto-lose

Lantern Archon:60 ft. speed, 2d6 ranged touch attacks with 30 ft. range. and only 4 hp. My money's on the fighter despite DR 10 if the archon doesn't flee (which he can do).

Arrowhawk (juvenile and adult): 60 ft. fly speed, 50 ft ranged attacks. Can't attack without getting stuck in charge range. Money on the fighter if he doesn't flee.

Dragons (several): Much higher speed than flying fighter (100-150 ft.). Can Flyby attack to death with breath weapon  if built this way. No way I'm giving flying fighter any chance on this one.

Darkmantle: Low fly speed, melee only, low grapple check. Fighter beats it with ease.


Imp/Quasit: 50 ft. speed, invisiblity at will. As written they can play hide and seek with fighter all day long. Now give them a bow (which they can use being outsiders) and the situation radically changes.

Giant eagle: 80 ft. fly speed, but large and with 3 decent attacks at CR 3 odds are he's putting the fighter in trouble in melee. still, point for the fighter in the current discussion. Same goes for Griffon and hyppogriff.

And this is where I got bored  :P Surprisingly I am now convinced that a low level fighter  isn't that helpless vs low-level flying opponents. Yes, there are some that render him useless, but TBH he can stand up (mainly drive off) to a surprising number of them.



Offline veekie

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Re: Player Thinks Too Outside of the Box
« Reply #36 on: August 07, 2013, 06:01:51 AM »
I discovered that while GM-ing, fliers are generally pretty short ranged, with the exception of Dragons(which are still within charge range, but can flyby attack with their breath or spells...but their breath weapons are significantly weaker than their melee abilities, and even their spells are hard pressed to match their full attacks). Even melee flyby attackers aren't so bad, you could always ready an action to counterattack.
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