Author Topic: Lamia Matriarch  (Read 11429 times)

Offline Chrononaut

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Lamia Matriarch
« on: August 23, 2013, 01:17:09 AM »
Lamia Matriarch


Img Credit: BanyeX on deviantart

Table: Lamia MatriarchHD: d8


Level
1
2
3
4
5
6
7
8
Base
Attack
Bonus
+0
+1
+2
+3
+3
+4
+5
+6/+1

Fort
Save
+2
+3
+3
+4
+4
+5
+5
+6

Ref
Save
+0
+0
+1
+1
+1
+2
+2
+2

Will
Save
+2
+3
+3
+4
+4
+5
+5
+6


Special
Matriarch’s Body, Alternate Form, +2 Cha
Wyrd Curse, Mystic Heritage, +1 Str
Corroded Future/Path of Penitence, Grap
Growth, Mystic Awakening, Constrict, +1 Con
Soiled Road/Sacred Coil, +1 Cha
Disciple, +1 Con
Mystic Ascendancy, +1 Str
Embraced Destiny, +1 Con, +1 Cha

Skill Points: 4+Int modifier (x4 at first level)
Class Skills: Balance, Bluff, Climb, Concentration, Craft, Diplomacy, Disguise, Escape Artist, Heal, Hide, Intimidate, Jump, Knowledge (Religion), Knowledge (Local), Listen, Move Silently, Perform, Profession, Sense Motive, Spot, Swim.

Weapon and Armor Proficiency: A Lamia Matriarch is proficient in simple weapons, her touch attack and her tail slap attack as well as scimitars and quarterstaves. They are not proficient with any sort of armor.

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« Last Edit: May 27, 2014, 08:33:51 AM by oslecamo »

Offline oslecamo

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Re: Lamia Matriarch
« Reply #1 on: August 26, 2013, 11:50:53 AM »
Ok, this work is quite interesting, but also a tricky one to evaluate as it has spellcasting, SLAs and the whole Hex system going at the same time.

Some things that stand out strange at first glance:
-Considering all the limitations her alternate form has, the Matriarch should probably be allowed to use it at will from the start.
-It's really easy to keep your Hex pool maxed in between battles as you can just slap some chickens or rats around. Perhaps you only gain hex from slapping sentient creatures?
-More important, I notice several "spend Hex for no-save screw you" effects, like applying your (probably massive) Cha as a penalty on all the opponent's rolls and Bestow Curse. They should allow saves to negate or something.
-Lost Future forcing the enemy to re-roll one d20 is probably nasty enough, it doesn't really need to scale to force multiple re-rolls.
-Soiled Road looks just too nasty, forcing Distraction saves every turn while inflicting another auto-penalty to saves to all adjacent.
-Matriarch of monsters, does the fiendish template replaces the celestial template for those summons that would normally have it? What about outsiders?
-Wyrd Blessing, what's stoping you from snuggling with your allies between every battle to make sure they have all those buffs running all the time? And what happens if they move? Is the Lamia Matriarch dragged around? Can they attack while coiled?
-Curse Break will easily one-shot a lot of enemies at lower levels, probably dealing some 40-60 damage whitout any save or defense possible. At medium and later levels however the damage becomes trivial. Could use some scaling probably, starting lower and ending higher.
-Both +2 Cha and +1 Con seems a bit too much for 1st level.

Anyway, the fluff you built up for this one looks pretty damn good, but I get the feel you tried to cram too much stuff. Levels 3-8 are granting you spellcasting advancment, and at the same time minions and powerful auras and really strong Hex attacks, several of which could use some toning down.

Offline Anomander

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Re: Lamia Matriarch
« Reply #2 on: August 26, 2013, 08:29:21 PM »
Isn't the Lamia Matriarch (also known as the Lamia Noble, I believe) supposed to be an improvement over the normal lamia?
Like a monstrous Prc that applies to Lamias?

The creature catalog depicts it as a +2 CR template applied to Lamias only.
There is already a 6 levels long Lamia monster class. Shouldn't the Lamia Matriarch be a 2 levels long Lamia prc?
(the final creature ends up a CR 8 creature anyway, so it'd fit perfectly)

Offline Chrononaut

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Re: Lamia Matriarch
« Reply #3 on: August 27, 2013, 09:21:20 PM »
It's based on this PF monster Ano. I know Ole's done PF monsters before (witness the Pleorma) so I have no qualms about using this.

Ugh, so rough draft, I really should've looked this over before posting it more. The Coure spoiled me.

Well, let the collaborative editing begin I guess.

-I'm currently pulling spellcasting right out, it's an illusionist/grappler with SLAs reflecting that already, adding tier 2 spellcasting onto that is needless complication, esp. when a prospective player has the Hex system and a pet lamia to manage.
-Incidentally, while I just gave her the straight up pathfinder SLAs, if you have a suggestion for other ones to fill in that are better...I'm thinking of adding mirage arcana in there as an upgrade.
-I'll also fix the stats.

As for the Wyrd Blessing and Hex pool issues, those are the first rules to be clarified. The capstone for 'bad' will be changed to getting a summon monster SLA appropriate to level 8 as well. Currently I was thinking that you have to use it on a non-extraplanar something with an int score over three, which means you can't pick up random animals, vermin (or oozes ) or summon things to suck their brains out. Of course, that still leaves random villagers... are they still a problem, you think?

Going to make prelim edits now.

Still no closer to the 'kill you with kindness' curse Lift balancing act but this should be considerable easier to build and read.

The thing with alt form is to line it up closer to fictional evil shapeshifters, so you can climactically reveal the king's advisor's true form and boss fight her... or she has to tragically hide her monstrous body from her loved ones. Or comically do so like Ranma.
« Last Edit: August 27, 2013, 09:54:47 PM by Chrononaut »

Offline Anomander

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Re: Lamia Matriarch
« Reply #4 on: August 27, 2013, 11:08:39 PM »
...funnily enough, that Pathfinder creature is pretty much the Lamia with the creature catalog's template stuck over it.  :rolleyes

They are Lamias but develop a snake tail, Alternate Form, spellcasting equivalent to about a level 6 caster, SR and a drop in speed.

I think it could easily be accomplished with a 2 levels long Prc for the Lamia that offers the possibility to trade the scaling Wisdom Drain, scaling speed, Pounce and Spring Pounce Attack for some sorcerer casting progression.
The alternative could be gaining the ability to reduce Wisdom drain die size to add an Hex/Curse effect thing. Trading more Wis drain for better hex/curse with a selection of curse/hex given over two level if spellcasting isn't chosen.
Then just pile in the new body features, Alternate Form and SR and other thing that may be missing.

Offline Chrononaut

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Re: Lamia Matriarch
« Reply #5 on: August 28, 2013, 07:22:43 AM »
Makes it difficult since I'm planning to write an entry for the Harridan template later on though. :P

Also the PrC you just outlined replaces so many things in the base lamia it might as well be listed as an ACF.

Offline Anomander

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Re: Lamia Matriarch
« Reply #6 on: August 28, 2013, 11:12:08 AM »
That is only a way I imagine could grant spellcasting to levels already acquired.
You cannot give that option to the Lamia itself since its some kind of Lamia Matriarch arcane metamorphosis, but considering that it would be optional, that doesn't make it much different than an ACF. It replaces stuff but what remains is what they have in common with the matriarch. The objective would be to make the entire thing work, and I think it does since the main difference between a Lamia and a Lamia that 'evolved' into a Lamia Matriarch/Noble are the snake tail and the acquisition of spellcasting.

There is always pseudocasting but it wouldn't be very representative of the original creature.

As for the Harridan template, considering it is CR 1, so one level long, and normally requires 10 levels in a divine spellcasting class on top of the Lamia (though more rarely Lamia Matriarches take it too, normal considering they'd probably prefer to focus on their arcane casting spellcasting instead of spending 10 levels in the divine).
It could have a requirement of being able to cast level divine 5 spells or, somewhat kinder, having a divine caster level of 10). Or make it available to the Lamia without investment in other classes but only give it spellcasting as if it took a level of cleric.
Being one level long, it would just progress divine spellcasting and give a nice Lamia themed ability/size increase.
If going for a go-to Prc without the huge prerequisite, maybe allow it to convert abilities for some divine casting like the Matriarch, leaving the two pounce tricks but granting less divine casting levels.

That way you could end with two kinds of Lamia Matriarch Harridans; those who didn't convert to arcane spellcasting and went the hex/curse way and converted to divine casting with Harridan, and those who converted to arcane casting and got a divine caster level out of the Harridan, perhaps with the intention to theurge later.
« Last Edit: August 28, 2013, 11:30:02 AM by Anomander »

Offline oslecamo

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Re: Lamia Matriarch
« Reply #7 on: August 28, 2013, 12:46:31 PM »
I don't have the time to properly check the edits now, but I'll chime in to say that Chrononaut is free to base the Matriarch from the pathfinder version, that is its own creature.

And since said Matriarch doesn't possess several of the base Lamia abilities, then the more reason to make a class of her own, since it just doesn't make much sense for a Prc to go "Now you lose most of your abilities and gain a bunch of new unrelated ones".

In particular because making it a prc runs the risk of cheesy alternate entry methods allowing a non-lamia to quickly grab a bunch of spellcaster levels. And the fact that Chrononaut already has the 8 level chassis done anyway.

Offline Anomander

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Re: Lamia Matriarch
« Reply #8 on: August 28, 2013, 02:04:10 PM »
Certainly.
Just showing a way to make the new creature compatible with material already done.

Quote
In particular because making it a prc runs the risk of cheesy alternate entry methods allowing a non-lamia to quickly grab a bunch of spellcaster levels. And the fact that Chrononaut already has the 8 level chassis done anyway.
Not sure how a non-lamia could use it if it requires 6 levels in Lamia.

Offline Chrononaut

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Re: Lamia Matriarch
« Reply #9 on: August 28, 2013, 05:24:53 PM »
Thanks Ole, that was basically why I didn't want to make it a template said in words I was too much of a doormat to say, not to mention I don't HAVE the creature catalogue.

Kill you with kindness... curse break would probably hit 100 as a cap before you've drained the average thing's wisdom to zero making additional effects pointless anyways...

Lifting it makes you fort vs. sickened or exhausted maybe? Not that good of a tradeoff for wisdom damage. I know! Fort with the DC rising with the more wisdom you get back! ...then it's unbeatable. Maybe it dazes or stuns you as you go super sane again? Or pacifies you as you gain inner peace?

Offline oslecamo

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Re: Lamia Matriarch
« Reply #10 on: August 29, 2013, 06:07:57 PM »
Quite liking the latest version.

Only thing wrong I notice now is the 7 Hex option being somewhat unclear on the saves (don't you mean the curse only lasts if they fail by 5 or more?)

Offline Chrononaut

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Re: Lamia Matriarch
« Reply #11 on: September 01, 2013, 01:41:50 AM »
All right, done and done.

Anything else I missed/needs refluffing or somesuch?  :flutter

Offline oslecamo

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Re: Lamia Matriarch
« Reply #12 on: September 07, 2013, 11:52:04 AM »
Well, one thing we usually do around here is adding "Way to bypass Freedom of Movement" to monsters that have grapple-focused abilities. But the monster looks  more than good enough as it is, so I'll add it to the index now and you can take care of that last detail later. Another great job from you!

Offline Chrononaut

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Re: Lamia Matriarch
« Reply #13 on: September 12, 2013, 08:35:43 PM »
hmm, I'll check how the other four snake girls get around that with constricting and pick one based on that.

Looks like only the Yuan-ti can. The marilith is a meleer so might want to add that.

I'll fold it into the auras.

Offline oslecamo

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Re: Lamia Matriarch
« Reply #14 on: September 14, 2013, 03:38:35 PM »
Done.