Author Topic: Why are high home prices seen as desirable?  (Read 11696 times)

Offline Dkonen

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Re: Why are high home prices seen as desirable?
« Reply #20 on: August 28, 2013, 12:48:09 PM »
We were told actually by our real estate agent that if we were ever looking to sell, the best investment we could make was fresh paint. A couple of coats of paint can raise the value of a house by about 10k. That and a mowed lawn and trimmed hedges.

It's all about appearance, it seems.

*incidentally I loved our agent. She was also the one who took us to a house for a viewing because she thought we should see what some people would try to sell us. Her response "It just needs a few renovations.....with a match."

If you really really want a house, find a good agent first, and make sure they're a buyer's agent. There's a world of difference between buyer and seller agents. (don't get me started on the agents we had before her)
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Offline veekie

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Re: Why are high home prices seen as desirable?
« Reply #21 on: August 28, 2013, 01:50:18 PM »
Sounds about right, paint makes the place look cleaner and more habitable quite cheaply, and if done well, would even hide some lacks of maintenance. Though if you know what to look for, they wouldn't get away with it. Also that's an awesome(and kinda rare) agent you got there.
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Offline altpersona

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Re: Why are high home prices seen as desirable?
« Reply #22 on: August 28, 2013, 04:00:59 PM »
for many people a home is an investment, usually a long term one.

unlike an a monetary investment account homes gain value as prices go up vs adding interest.

if the value stays the same or god forbid goes down, the homeowner is screwed.

and as we learned from lionel luther, they are not making more land. its a limited resource with an increasing number of people wanting it.

That all sounds like BS.  First of all, the birth rate is declining and the median age is rising; elderly people don't need to live near job centers, or even in houses at all as they get older.

As for the investment... they're not "screwed" if the price of the house goes down, unless they buy for a massively inflated price (like, 2006) and are literally selling for a small FRACTION of what they paid.  So long as the costs of maintenance, property taxes, and mortgage interest are less than rent...you're still making out like a bandit over the long term compared to a renter, because you're at least getting *some* of that principle back!  Not to mention the fact that property taxes get factored into the cost of rent (of course lower than for a house on an acre of land, but still), and while house prices may or fluctuate up and down and be unpredictable, rent will definitely go up over time, while as your mortgage payment will be the same year to year.
Seriously, WTF is this?  In the long run, having a house is like renting, except you get some of your money back at the end.

if your investment dosnt gain at the same rate as inflation, your loosing.

i believe i was instructed to invest 1% of a homes value in maintenance per year.

unless you have bought a serious fixer upper, renovation is a money pit.
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Offline Dkonen

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Re: Why are high home prices seen as desirable?
« Reply #23 on: August 28, 2013, 07:08:18 PM »
Also keep in mind regional rental costs. It works out that our mortgage and bills are actually in total, about a third of what we'd pay monthly for rent, but rent here is insane. It's a small city, but between students and seniors the apartments are always snapped up and a single bedroom with a kitchenette and a bathroom runs you about 600$/mo before any other bills come out. And we're talking a place about the size of our living room upstairs for the entire apartment.

We're living in a four bedroom place with two roomies to cover the cost of the mortgage and bills, and it leaves us with a decent amount aside. Other than the bathroom which needs to be gutted, (mildew in the drywall-we clean it out every few days but it's obviously already inside the inner walls) it's a great place. *However* our roomies (who don't have a vehicle) are paying almost as much extra for cab fares. They save maybe 200$ a month by not renting an apartment. It adds up, especially with not having to deal with some of the slumlords around here who consider damage deposits to be the handling fee for letting you live there at all (as in, no, you'll never see that cheque again).

Is it worth it? For us, with rent as much as it is around here... yeah it is. If we were in a place where rent wasn't as ridiculous and landlords were less primordial ooze vomit (seriously I have some scary stories about the crap they pull here. The tamest is the landlord who let himself into our place and stood outside my bathroom while I was having a bath listening to me splash around and possible peering through the keyhole...*ew*)...I'd probably keep an apartment... but I'm a low maintenance gal. I hate mowing lawns, doing gardening, shovelling driveways, repainting, getting plumbers in, fiddling with faucets, replacing carpet, and all that general pain in the butt stuff that involves owning a house. I also like the feel of having people around me.

Since our neighbor likes to run his loud ass (he wears ear protection-the kind for gun ranges)lawnmower under our window at 7am in the summer, and snowblows his driveway similarly early in the winter, I don't think the noise from the other apartments would bother me all that much...at least not anymore...

I do still have an extra bag of sugar though...and one of these days..... :shakefist
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Offline StreamOfTheSky

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Re: Why are high home prices seen as desirable?
« Reply #24 on: August 28, 2013, 08:35:40 PM »
Yeah, rent around here is insane.  I pay more per month in rent than a lot of people seem to for mortgage + property tax + insurance.  You might be able to find $800/month for a small one bedroom in a decent area, but most likely you're gonna be paying ~$1000 or more.  ...I sure am....   :(  Not to mention all the ludicrous fees the apartments in my area like to hit you with either in big upfront costs or as added monthly costs.  Like a "pet fee" that might be $30/month, for example (ours was a one-time $550 hit...for a <10 lb cat, cripes).  This is not some sort of supplemental insurance on top of the security fee, you do not get a cent back if the apartment is immaculate when you move out, and if the pet DOES do damage, you have to pay for it on top of the pet fee charges, it's basically just "pet rent."  Freaking ludicrous.

if your investment dosnt gain at the same rate as inflation, your loosing.

i believe i was instructed to invest 1% of a homes value in maintenance per year.

unless you have bought a serious fixer upper, renovation is a money pit.

We agree on renovation.  Though I guess a new paint job and such right before selling can be very well worth it!

And you're not loosing.  You have to live somewhere.  While you may not have kept up with inflation (I would expect a well-maintained house to sell for about the same adjusted for inflation or a small drop off from that, though, just not more than that...), but you also weren't paying rent that entire time.

Offline bhu

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Re: Why are high home prices seen as desirable?
« Reply #25 on: August 28, 2013, 09:31:37 PM »
damn i thought my lease agreement was bad...

Offline awaken_D_M_golem

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Re: Why are high home prices seen as desirable?
« Reply #26 on: August 30, 2013, 03:23:12 PM »
Extended family member can't sell their Super-Insulated House.
People in their price range want Black Stoves + Fancy counter tops.
$5000 to operate plus Black = good.
vs
$3000 to operate plus not-Black = run away.

The faux-rich always will be ...


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That is like <2% of her net worth.  Oprah.
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Offline Arz

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Re: Why are high home prices seen as desirable?
« Reply #27 on: August 30, 2013, 03:38:17 PM »
You forgot a few details...

Taxes: Based on sale/purchase value; unless your area does regular reassessments. So unless the millage gets raised its a static cost.

Refurbish/repair: These are a necessary cost, codes change, stuff wears out.

As for value on your investment, this is a highly local value. Housing markets can be just about anything.

Offline Dkonen

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Re: Why are high home prices seen as desirable?
« Reply #28 on: August 31, 2013, 12:44:34 AM »
Actually, here in Canada, old houses are grandfathered..if you don't repair something with a licensed contractor, or the licensed contractor isn't up on code changes you don't have to change anything. My mother (a now-retired geriatric nurse) actually had a 95 year old client living in the same home her husband built when they got married. 1 electrical socket, no running water, no other electricity. Not up to code, but until she decided to do some fixing it's still legal.

Not safe-but quite legal.

You don't *have* to keep your house up to code, but if you're planning on renovations, you may run into an issue spending more money than you planned if you're not, as you'll then be required to bring the rest up.

Another example: attached garages and back decks. Now all back decks and garages are required to be self supporting, and can no longer be directly attached to a house (at least here). We have both. My parents couldn't build one, as it was, by then, no longer within code, but we can have one because it's pre existing. There's laws like that for certain vehicles as well, so I understand.

(incidentally-the reason why they have to be self supporting? Well, last year our neighbors down the road paid somone who was..well..not quite official..to put on a back porch, it was fully screened in with closing floor to ceiling windows-we have a lovely view and I don't blame them. However, two weeks later it, and about two thirds of their back wall was ripped off in a windstorm. If it had been self supporting and not attached, all they would have lost was the porch.)

Reassessment happens within most municipalities, however in more rural areas you're less likely to worry about it. Municipalities like to reassess so they can recalculate the income for their given area, it also helps in applying for further non municipal increases, and looks good on reports to be able to show a city's net worth is increasing.

Our national housing industry is going through a high point right now. Unfortunately a lot of that is in condo purchases in more heavily populated areas. It artifically inflates the values of properties as a number of our realtor companies go by national averages, and decrease based on local average incomes. They're not, apparently taking into account the types of properties that are selling, and that may be by their own conscious choice-bigger sales give bigger commissions. I don't know. Regardless, in Canada, it will take a dip soon.

Honestly, in most places it will. Demographics has a large impact on economic values of certain goods. It's why products are tailored via age group. And if you're in North America, you're part of the world that has an "aging population" issue. As much as the aging generation wants to stay home, there comes a point where it simply is no longer possible, and you will have a larger percentage of the population being forced to make that decision in the coming years than has..I'd hesitate to say..ever happened in NA.

Unless there's an upswing in decentralization (actually it's going more towards centralization, and that's pretty much everywhere), a huge boost to the economies in a number of countries, or a worldwide realization that since everyone's in debt, the only debtors left keeping score are the banks, we're going to see a drop in real estate and likely a number of houses simply abandoned as noone can afford to buy them-or, at least-not many.

Even my husband and I may end up with four houses (two not even in the same city-one in another country) simply because we won't be able to sell them. Though, to be fair, the one across the pond will probably be sold fairly easily-an influx of immigrants makes housing much more priority-though from what I hear it's mostly companies turning them into apartments and renting now.

The world has changed since the 50s. A house, two kids and a car just isn't as achievable as it used to be. Even the hubby and I see kids, at this point as a luxury we simply cannot afford. In fact, our minimum wage isn't enough to cover my cab fare to and from work, with my lunch and taxes taken out (including the lovely national pension I will never see). I would have to work full time above minimum wage to be able to *afford* to work (also calculate for the next tax bracket up, because it'd be just enough to bump us into it).

Life is strange sometimes. 
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Offline StreamOfTheSky

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Re: Why are high home prices seen as desirable?
« Reply #29 on: August 31, 2013, 03:55:04 AM »
I'm pretty sure the grandfathering is the norm in the US, too.  The first place I moved into was a really old multi-family house that had its wildly defunct electrical wiring grandfathered in.  If we dared to have a computer on and plugged in and use the microwave at the same time, WHOOSH!  Power go bye-bye.  Man, that place was horrible...  Crappy not up to code electrical problems wasn't even in my top 5 for reasons we moved the fuck out.

Offline altpersona

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Re: Why are high home prices seen as desirable?
« Reply #30 on: August 31, 2013, 01:55:32 PM »
ya, mostly in the US, unless you have a home owners association or if your city has plans for your property, code is only for new work.
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Offline PlzBreakMyCampaign

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Re: Why are high home prices seen as desirable?
« Reply #31 on: September 01, 2013, 10:36:17 PM »
SoTS, you are so incredibly on track I'm not going to say more.

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Offline StreamOfTheSky

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Re: Why are high home prices seen as desirable?
« Reply #32 on: September 02, 2013, 01:14:31 AM »
FWIW, no later than a week after starting this thread, my wife's car crapped out on us.  Buying another's going to set me back on the house buying thing at least another year if not two...  :(

I do still like the discussion, though.

Offline brujon

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Re: Why are high home prices seen as desirable?
« Reply #33 on: September 02, 2013, 01:32:26 AM »
I read an interesting article about housing prices, rent, and the economy, and how they're all interconnected. The short of it is, rent value is a much better indication of the "real" property value in a area than the actual real state value for the area. Because people buy houses as investments as well as to live in them, and that creates a major speculation bubble. The thing is, this is a natural thing for the economy. Housing has been, historically, one of the most solid investments one could make. Land isn't something that can be created, so the natural tendency is for it's value to increase, since it's a finite resource - much like gold or oil. So people invest in the house, but most people who want a house, don't actually have the money to buy a house. So they go to banks. And the banks accept to lend them money, and rest assured that the house will retain it's value, so they'll get their money back if push comes to shove. The problem is, when houses become overvalued, Banks are loaning much more money than what is actually insured by the house itself, because much of the house's price is composed of speculation. This does not happen with rent. Rent values go up according to supply and demand, and according to the real value of living in the house that is to be rented. People who rent houses are not investing, but spending money, and as such, there is no way of possibly being any speculation. So, the real problem lies when house prices compared to the rent values for similar propeties skyrocket out of proportion, and then go down, because that creates insecurity in the market. A not insignificant part of a bank's money is invested in property loans, mortgages or otherwise tied up to properties and taking into account the overpriced values they're currently worth.

And this is why it's bad for house prices to go down. It is actually, not a cause of an economic crisis, but a symptom. When people stop investing money, it's because the market is already unstable, and the real problem lies in the cascading effect that real state prices going down have on the rest of the economy. Being a generally very secure kind of investment, housing, when it becomes unnatractive, is a symptom of a larger issue. Of course, i'm talking about general price drops, and not localized devaluations, which happens normally and don't have much impact outside of the local economy. So, by monitoring rent prices and the sales prices for the same houses, and seeing the proportion by which each is increasing yearly, you can spot the discrepancies and determine to a reasonable degree of certainty whether or not a given region is suffering from real state speculation, or if it's the normal price increase that is determined by supply and demand.

More or less.
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Offline veekie

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Re: Why are high home prices seen as desirable?
« Reply #34 on: September 02, 2013, 01:39:55 AM »
I dare say the current situation is pretty severe speculation inflation that nobody can let go of anymore though. Not without bringing down everything with it. Theoretically it should even out to approach the actual value, but nobody's willing to let it. And now nobody can either.
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Offline Dkonen

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Re: Why are high home prices seen as desirable?
« Reply #35 on: September 02, 2013, 12:26:53 PM »
It also depends on the area you're in. Our renting prices aren't really indicative of home values, since a good portion of our population (about nine months of the year) is transitory. We have several universities and colleges, so rent is sky high. Houses, however, still have some issues selling if they're not in a prime area and senior friendly/apartment friendly.

*Fun local fact: about five years ago the universities had to turn away successful applicants because they couldn't find them anywhere to live. Almost every single apartment was already booked up. The various academic institutions actually ended up buying two hotels and getting a few more older mansion style homes to convert to dorms just to fit everyone.*


But yes, inflated home prices is a municipal equivalent of bragging about your high paying job-except that your job doesn't really pay that much, will never probably pay that much, but you're at a high school reunion and you want everyone to think you're doing just great. God forbid anyone actually ask you to prove it.

It's "good" for politics, not so good for those of us with property taxes to pay.

Edit: oh and it's actually really good you're going to wait. This would be one of the worst times to get involved in real estate. Invest in pharmaceuticals and medical technologies, specifically that which enhances quality of life care. (mobility aids, painkillers, nutritional supplements, synthetic insulin, etc etc). Make sure to research your companies first and get out in three years before it drops again. Or just avoid the stock market altogether. Either or, you save a ton of money :P
« Last Edit: September 02, 2013, 12:31:52 PM by Dkonen »
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Offline StreamOfTheSky

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Re: Why are high home prices seen as desirable?
« Reply #36 on: December 17, 2013, 05:45:16 PM »
Thread necro for relevant article: http://finance.fortune.cnn.com/2013/12/10/american-housing-rentals/
Quote
Throughout the economic recovery, housing experts thought higher prices for rentals was a positive sign. The hope was that renting would eventually become too expensive and it would make more financial sense to buy. While that might be true, and new home sales have been rising, it's hard to see how many more renters can sock up enough savings for a down payment to buy when more are spending a bigger share of their income on rent.

"Experts"?  I don't know jack shit about housing and I can see the horrible logic in that line of thinking instantly.  It's the same "logic" they're (Federal Reserve) using to drive down savings rates to practically zero to force us into the casino stock market.

Also, just got a notice that stating next year, they're adding a $10 charge per month for trash, which up to now was the ONLY thing my apartment covered at all.  Mind you, we have no recycling here, just trash compactors that a truck comes and empties.  And there's a few hundred apartments in the complex.  I smell bullshit.   :shakefist

I'm sure it has nothing at all to do with them building two new apartment buildings...
« Last Edit: December 17, 2013, 05:48:52 PM by StreamOfTheSky »

Offline awaken_D_M_golem

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Re: Why are high home prices seen as desirable?
« Reply #37 on: December 20, 2013, 02:49:54 PM »
My parents had next door neighbors who didn't take their home ownership all that seriously.  They bought a below code home for $225k, used it for 2 years when he got laid off, they moved 3+ hours away, rented the house 1 year without help from a rental company, tried to rent the house a 2nd year but failed miserably, they put the house on the market for $250k which their Realtor said was beyond ridiculous given the unimproved below code problems, one year later they lowered the price to $225k, still no nibbles, they lowered the price to $190k the amount left on the mortgage, they waited another year, they got ONE offer for $182k and settled the hour they got it.  They're divorced now too.  La dee dah they loved their house for a while.

I wish I had that kind of money to burn.

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Offline StreamOfTheSky

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Re: Why are high home prices seen as desirable?
« Reply #38 on: March 13, 2014, 07:12:58 PM »
I swear, CNN intentionally puts its most utter bullshit in video format just to avoid having a comments section.
"Why millennials love apartments"

No, you fucking fuckwits.  We DON'T love apartments!  We love apartments like a dental patient loves his root canal.  We're in apartments because we *have* to be.  Because housing prices are complete bullshit and un(der)employment is horrific!  Love mobility?  Again...mobility is required in an age where jobs think nothing of layoffs and will move at the drop of a hat to wherever is cheapest (including overseas completely).  We don't WANT to be mobile.  We have to be, and we're bitter and angry about it.  More rentals are being built because that's all we can afford.  Not because renting is awesome!  Maybe if people weren't constantly doing everything in their power (from rah-rah'ing higher prices to dropping interest rates to 0%, to using "QE" to flood the market with treasury bonds, etc...) to make housing prices soar ever skyward, we wouldn't be so forced into renting.
"...and lift the housing market for everyone else."  A fitting end to the video, seeing as that's all you assholes really care about.

Offline X-Codes

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Re: Why are high home prices seen as desirable?
« Reply #39 on: March 14, 2014, 02:47:14 PM »
This is why I stopped watching news for old white people.