Author Topic: Dragonlance adventure - beguiler ?  (Read 8936 times)

Offline Dwarfi

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Dragonlance adventure - beguiler ?
« on: September 27, 2013, 06:22:25 AM »
Hello everony.
My group is starting to plan characters for a new adventure.
We start on Lv3 and play as long as they live.

Books: Basically everything that says dragonlance is allowed. We want to stay away from most other books though and be as core as possible.
That I am allowed to play a beguiler is only because its not a damage dealer.

We play in the dragonlance realm and of course the campaign setting. So there are some changes to possible races and some classes.
This is all new to me as we only played in Faerun so far and I understood that magic works somewhat different here.
From what I understood spont casting isnt effected that much.

there is the regular Gnome and the Kender he somewhat fits the character I had in mind, but the -4 conc looks bad. +1 on all sv and imune to fear is nice though as well as the boni on the skills. The bluff bonus is lame, maybe just houserule to +2 on bluff. bonus to sleight of hands, spot and open lock are great as well and really fit the character. So I guess I will actually go with a Kender Beguiler.

Any good feats for the dragonlance universe ?
In Faerun I would have taken shadowweave magic, but here that doesnt work.
I only found "spellcasting prodigy" as a good Lv1 feat.

PrC? There are few that actually have anything related to enchant and illusion to offer. And those who do usually scale with CHA or WIS as they are either clerics, mystiques or Sorc.
I havent really found one for a Wiz yet.

Does anybody know a good 1 Lv dip for a beguiler? Usually that would be Mindbender but again, we try to not use anything besides core and DL books.

So I am opern for all Dragon lance hints and tipps you can think of.
Thanks.
« Last Edit: September 29, 2013, 03:59:03 PM by Dwarfi »

Offline Dwarfi

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Re: Dragonlance adventure - beguiler ?
« Reply #1 on: September 28, 2013, 02:29:12 PM »
Maybe this should be moved to the min max are... not so sure.

Ok from what I understood so far:
Gnomes and Kender  dont gain any of the usual DC+1 on illusion benefits in dragonlance.
Although the Int is really nice and makes a lot of sense, but from a role play point of view I just have to pick a Kender. ^^

Besides spellcasting prodigy I havent actually found a good feat worth taking besides the usual feats from the Beguiler handbook. (If available)
Actually it seems that there arent that many new feats or spell at all compared to the usual core.

Offline Dwarfi

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Re: Dragonlance adventure - beguiler ?
« Reply #2 on: September 29, 2013, 05:33:27 AM »
After some thinking I decided for the gnome. Maybe with a Kender ancestor to explain her curious mind for sorcery.
The INT bonus is just too good, esp on a beguiler to ignor it.

A Kender has +2/-4 and only gets skillpoints and fearlessness in return. Of which we have enough by the high INT anyway.

Now I have to come up with a nice family quest and a gnome guild.
Something for spying maybe, shadowmagi, thieves guild.... with knowledge about trap and lock mechanics ? Giving a +2 bonus on one of those maybe ?

32 point buy: (after racial adj.)
6/16/16/ - 18/10/10
or
6/16/14/ - 20/10/8

The 1st is more balanced and I like that only str goes below 0. The 2nd has +5 INt though, which is hella nice on LV1 for skills.
« Last Edit: September 29, 2013, 12:31:49 PM by Dwarfi »

Offline Jackinthegreen

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Re: Dragonlance adventure - beguiler ?
« Reply #3 on: September 29, 2013, 08:37:27 PM »
I'm looking through http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Dragonlance_modules_and_sourcebooks to see which books were made for 3.X.  Might as well make an index of it...

Edit:  Based on my scanning through that, I'm guessing the following are likely allowed since they're all explicitly called out for 3.5:

Dragonlance Campaign Setting
Bestiary of Krynn (revised in 2007)
Age of Mortals
War of the Lance
Legends of the Twins
Towers of High Sorcery
Holy Orders of the Stars
Knightly Orders of Ansalon
Races of Ansalon
Dragons of Krynn


Is that correct?

Additionally, what books from the usual D&D stuff are disallowed, if any?
« Last Edit: September 29, 2013, 08:45:29 PM by Jackinthegreen »

Offline Dwarfi

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Re: Dragonlance adventure - beguiler ?
« Reply #4 on: September 30, 2013, 02:46:35 AM »
Yes those books are all ok.

Other then pure dragonlace: PH, PH2 (only for the beguiler class so far), DMG, Magic item comp. and that should be pretty much it.
Our last campaign allowed pretty much anything and so we want to balance it out some more on this adventure.

Currently checking on items:

We start on Lv3 so ~2700 Gold.
With only 6 STR I could only carry 15 LB befor my speed gets reduced to 15ft/r. So that might be  a problem.

The usual starting items like bedroll and so on roughly take 10 lb already.
A bagpack (for small) 0.5 lb / Bag of holding 1.25 lb / Handy haversack ( not sure what the difference is between the last 2)
Weapons: dagger 0.5 lb + light or heavy crossbow 2/4 lb (at least the dagger)
Thieves toolkit (100 Gp 2lb) is the only expensive item besides gear.
Armor: I could effort a mithrall chainshirt for 1100 GP as that only weights 6lb instead of 12. A Mithrall breastplate would count as light armor too but is way heavier, expensive and only offers 1 AC more.
Adding the easy travel enchantment would solve most of my STR problems. but it costs 1500 again.

OR I buy boots of striding for 2k and +10 speed. I still get reduced to 15, but thanks to the +10 I actually end up with 25. Thats still more then I would get with a light load (20ft) and the easy travel enchantment or a bag of holding.
Or I just take a very light armor or even none for the start.

mithral buckler for enchantment
Boots of elvenkind and striding
Anklet of translocation
Ring of darkhidden

Do I actually need a spell comp. pouch ?

Ring of prot and cloak of res (or a featherfall item) are always great, but so far I am more scared of the bad movement.

From Races of Ansalon:
Some other feats: Quick thinking +2Ini +2 Spot - as an alternative to impr ini
Lucky: +1 on all saves
The item creation for gnomes seams somewhat interesting, but very complicated. --° Dont really want to read into that.
« Last Edit: September 30, 2013, 08:54:23 AM by Dwarfi »

Offline Jackinthegreen

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Re: Dragonlance adventure - beguiler ?
« Reply #5 on: September 30, 2013, 10:03:16 AM »
With a 6 strength you'll definitely want the mithril chain shirt instead of a breastplate.  That extra AC would be nice, but ideally you won't be getting hit in the first place.  Note that mithril shirts are actually 10 pounds, meaning it'd be 5 pounds for a small character.

The haversack allows retrieving any item from the large central portion as a move action that doesn't provoke AoOs.  All told the haversack can hold 120 pounds of stuff or 12 cubic feet and weighs 5 pounds.

A type 1 bag of holding can hold 250 pounds or 30 cubic feet, but it weighs 15 pounds (which is absurd in my eyes).  It also costs 2500g which isn't likely to be in your price range, is it?

Note that, strictly speaking, it doesn't say that magic items change their weights, only their sizes.  But it would be reasonable to rule that their weights change for the character.  What those weights will change to could be a bit hard to figure out since the adventuring gear section says backpacks and such made for small characters weigh 1/4 as much, but stuff like weapons are half instead.

Given the costs and weights, the haversack would be much better if you do indeed need the storage.  If its weight goes down to 1.25 pounds without changing its holding capability then that's pretty good.  The bag of holding would still be 3.75 pounds and 2500g so it wouldn't really let you do other things.

Yes, you will need a spell component pouch since the beguiler does have a few spells with material components and can get more through Advanced Learning.  For cantrips this list shows that Daze and Ghost Sound require materials while for 1st level spells it's Color Spray, Comprehend Languages, and Sleep that need materials.  2nd level shows that Glitterdust, Hypnotic Pattern, Invisibility, See Invisibility, and Spider Climb all require material components too.  If you're going to use those spells (and you definitely want to with some of them like Daze) then you'll either need the spell component pouch or the feat Eschew Materials.
« Last Edit: September 30, 2013, 10:10:53 AM by Jackinthegreen »

Offline Dwarfi

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Re: Dragonlance adventure - beguiler ?
« Reply #6 on: October 01, 2013, 09:43:28 AM »
Maybe we are gonna start on LV1 after all. The group isnt entirely sure about it yet.
Although I wont take the regular adventurers kit... with 25 lb its way too heavy and I dont need all the stuff.

My DM offered my a gnome guild, giving me a bonus on craft locks (will never use it), open locks and dis. device. Sounds like a good deal to me.

Offline Dwarfi

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Re: Dragonlance adventure - beguiler ?
« Reply #7 on: October 04, 2013, 11:24:06 AM »
Alright, we started on Lv2 and the DM just gave us some Equipment. So I am over my light load anyway until I find a magical solution. ^^
We have another Kender Rogue in the group and somewhat a lot of skillmonkeys.
I think the rogue can work pretty well together with me. ^^

For roleplaying reasons I have craft lock, knw local "nevermind" and some other stuff to fluff up the character.
I get boni from the toolkit (renamed thieves kit as I am not really a thieve) and from my guild, which gives me boni on open lock and dis. device.

The beguiler works pretty well on its own, but I am thinking if there is a PrC or other class that I could use for the 1Lv dip.
There are quite a lot of Skill/ social focussed PrC like the right. zealot who can influence groups of people... but most of those dont seem to be worth giving up a beguiler level.
Too bad the mindbender isnt allowed. - I could ask my DM tough but he said he would encourage Dragonlance Classes.

1st Level Feat: Spellcasting prodigy. Obviously.
« Last Edit: October 04, 2013, 11:26:14 AM by Dwarfi »

Offline Jackinthegreen

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Re: Dragonlance adventure - beguiler ?
« Reply #8 on: October 04, 2013, 03:50:45 PM »
As per core rules, masterwork tools can exist for all skills.  They cost 50g each for 1 skill.

Don't give up beguiler casting unless the PrC really is that good,which is unlikely to happen.  Sticking with beguiler is a great option in its own right.

The Academy Sorcerer from Age of Mortals is probably the only Dragonlance PrC I'd for with a Beguiler, but that has roleplaying requirements that might not fit for your character.  It can grant bonuses to Craft as well as bonuses to illusion spells with the figment descriptor.  It also grants bonus metamagic feats and perhaps an item creation feat or two too.

For a regular sorcerer it's actually a pretty damn nice PrC.

Offline Dwarfi

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Re: Dragonlance adventure - beguiler ?
« Reply #9 on: October 05, 2013, 03:36:35 AM »
Ok, thanks.

Planning for the 1st adv. learning.
I can only take stuff from the PH, Dungeonmaster or Dragonlance spells.

Without a PrC I will have to pick a Lv1 spell for my 1st ADv. Learning and a Lv3 spell the 2nd time.

Actually there are some interesting ench. spells in Dragonlance. but only 1 illusion spell. It seems the authors wanted only mystiques to have illusion spells. ^^
- There are some Lv2 spells, but no Lv1. Even in the regular PH there isnt really anything left. A beguiler can already cast most of it, besides stuff like Ventriloquism.

For a Lv2-3 spell learning:
Disarm, Greed, shroud from sight are all rather nice enchantments.
For regular PH spells: Heroism.

Shadow conjuration would be Lv4 but its in the PH and therefor available.

Actually this shouldnt be much of a problem. I already have kind of an advantage, as I already have PH2 spells in my spell list, so picking some weaker spells doesnt matter as much.

Offline Dwarfi

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Re: Dragonlance adventure - beguiler ?
« Reply #10 on: October 09, 2013, 05:15:03 AM »
Only thing left is a life quest.

Something related to locks, doors, the mind... maybe something about the lesser gnomes ?
Unlocking the secrets of a dragons mind maybe ?
Something about the Kenders fearlessness ?

Hmmm.... any ideas?

Offline Jackinthegreen

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Re: Dragonlance adventure - beguiler ?
« Reply #11 on: October 09, 2013, 10:04:51 AM »
If you're in the Age of Mortals then figuring out how Kender work (or don't) might be an interesting tie in given how some of them lost that ability thanks to the dragons and such.

Dragons themselves are another beast entirely depending on alignment.

Keep in mind it's going to be an obsession for the character so try for something that will make the game interesting but not "WTF?" especially if it's related to learning the secrets of some minds just in case the urge comes up to pry into the minds of party members to find some patterns or something.

Offline Dwarfi

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Re: Dragonlance adventure - beguiler ?
« Reply #12 on: October 11, 2013, 04:07:32 AM »
Plaing yesterday again.
For now I placed my bagpack on the belt of one of the big guys, so I carry ~10 lb less.
This lets me walk around normally again.

An easy solution for the problem. ^^

My beguiler has interest in Kenders, as she wants to study their mind, the fearlessness and see how dragons affected it or how to undo the bad effect.

Our latest group member is Lord Lothien Sunray - a really gay elven sorcerer. ^^
Later another member will arrive, probably a (Thoradorian ?) minotaur Fighter /Barb mix. Or maybe he takes all the racial class levels to become large ^^
In that case I could really ride on him with me ~3ft tall gnome.

Offline Dwarfi

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Re: Dragonlance adventure - beguiler ?
« Reply #13 on: October 13, 2013, 02:45:15 AM »
Heroic surge is an interesting Feat from Dragonlance:
Allows 1 or more extra move or attack action, depening on you level.
Of course the ATK action doesnt help, but having 1 extra movement action as a small character... sure, that might save your butt.

Otherwise the usual good feats:
Impr. ini...
Spell focus...

I will try to get my hands on an elvish cloak/ boots for better hide and move silently checks.
« Last Edit: October 13, 2013, 05:14:04 AM by Dwarfi »

Offline Dwarfi

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Re: Dragonlance adventure - beguiler ?
« Reply #14 on: October 15, 2013, 11:12:07 AM »
Do you think the impr. feint feat is worth it ?
Its interesting once it becomes a swift action on Lv6, but befor that... not so much.

I think either impr. ini or focus enchant are the way to go for the Lv3 feat.

Offline Jackinthegreen

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Re: Dragonlance adventure - beguiler ?
« Reply #15 on: October 15, 2013, 03:29:22 PM »
Making use of Surprise Casting can be quite irksome since it requires being in melee and thus leaves you open to getting hit by an AoO when you cast a spell.  Beguilers don't make good weapon attackers, so denying something its Dex bonus like that just for an attack isn't really worth it.

Improved Initiative is almost always a good feat.  I believe you're considering Spell Focus, yes?  I'd go for Imp Init personally since you're likely to get more use from it.

Offline Dwarfi

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Re: Dragonlance adventure - beguiler ?
« Reply #16 on: October 16, 2013, 04:21:50 AM »
Thanks for the advice. I will go for impr ini for Lv3 feat and spell focus on Lv6 I guess.


Offline Dwarfi

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Re: Dragonlance adventure - beguiler ?
« Reply #17 on: October 25, 2013, 04:31:31 AM »
I talked to my DM about the problem with Adv. learing.
He allowed me to gather SpC spells as well and sen to him for review, so that he can say what he allows and what is out.

I think one of the 1st two would make the most sense. With Impr ini and +3 Dex I have a good chance to react with Shock and a. in time.
Distract assailant is overall good especiall because we have 3 characters in the group who can sneak attack or do something equal (surprise casting)
+ Both are swift actions.

Distract assailant (CAd/SpC) (Ench(Comp)[mind]) - Swift action/ 1 target flat footed.
Shock and awe (SpC). Swift action - can only be cast in the surprise round against ff enemys. Gives -10 on hit enemys initiative. - No SV, but SR makes it usefull later as well.
Net of shadows (SpC/Faerun Magic ) (Illus(Shadow)[dark]) - blanket enemies in shadows, reducing their vision to 5 ft and giving them concealment - I guess shadow magic doesnt exist in Dragonlance, so this might be out.

Dead end (SpC) Illusion - disguises the spoor left by the targets. - veeery situational.
Distract: -4 on spot/listen/search/conc + only 1 Stand. or Move action. Max HD6 - Good, except for the 6HD cap.
Nystuls magic aura (SPC) This is one of those spells you take to trick idiots and shop keepers.  (Or you group)
"Calm down or you force me to use this on you ! *draws out the +3 vorpal sword*"
Edit: Oh wait, does the magic aura really do JUST that ? create an aura? It doesnt really look like the weapon ?... Oh come on, thats no fun.

Items: Well, I have the feeling that our dmg will manage most of this unless I skill my craft skill to make some magical items. Which wouldnt be so bad as I am the only one with high int in the group so far. Maybe our Drakonian start a wiz career and gets some craft skills down though. ^^
If not, a mithrall chainshirt or boots of elvenkind might be a candidate for 1st pick item.
I guess a cloak or ring comes by on the loot list anyway.

While we talk on items, as a beguiler I get a craft skill. And as a gnome I get +2 on Alchemy anyway. So I could level that a bit.
ALthough I had to check what I could actually make. Crafting armor and weapons is usually better, but as a beguiler I miss most of the good spells.
Edit: And again I learn that Alchemy doesnt include brew potion...
« Last Edit: October 25, 2013, 11:58:22 AM by Dwarfi »

Offline Dwarfi

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Re: Dragonlance adventure - beguiler ?
« Reply #18 on: November 03, 2013, 11:53:01 AM »
I can now pick my 1st Adv. learning spell.
A Lv1 spell like listed in my last post.

My group is kind of rogue-ish. Counting my beguiler in, we have 3 of 6 chars who can sneak attack or similar.

So now I am somwhat torn between:
Distract assailant (CAd/SpC) (Ench(Comp)[mind]) - Swift action/ 1 target flat footed.
Shock and awe (SpC). Swift action - can only be cast in the surprise round against ff enemys. Gives -10 on hit enemys initiative. - No SV, but SR makes it usefull later as well.

Any thoughts which one would be better ? Shock and awe stays usefull but is kind of limited in use, even as a beguiler. Every time an opponent opens the fight (like an attack during rest, bandints jumping out from the trees and stuff like that)
But the other can be used in fights, but only on 1 target.

Offline Jackinthegreen

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Re: Dragonlance adventure - beguiler ?
« Reply #19 on: November 03, 2013, 08:09:43 PM »
I'm more keen on Distract Assailant personally.  As you said, Shock and Awe is a bit limited and requires you to spend more time on ambushes and the like.  DA will tend to be pretty useful for the sneak attack types and even yourself, although being in melee is still not a good idea for you.