Fun Finds v5.0

[snakeman830]

Regardless, Dragon Samurai is a valid method to boost the damage of the breath weapon, since it explicitly says it can instead increase existing breath weapon damage.

[linklord231]

Depending on what it means by "same type" it might only increase the damage when you're using certain breath weapon effects.

[Amechra]

Create Small Human's from Animals: druid 5 spell

http://dndtools.eu/spells/standing-stone--150/create-faux-human--4974/

Got to be abusable?

Guys.

Guys.

It doesn't specify what the physical ability scores are. That means they default to whatever the character had before-hand...

This is like a bargain-bin Awaken.

Too bad about the location component, though you could possibly badger your DM into letting you visit the place...

Now excuse me, I have a character to build.

EDIT: Double checked my copy of Standing Stones. Holy crap the spell works like I think it works.
EDIT EDIT: Actually, there is no RAW way to get their stats. I'll assume the stats don't change, though. There isn't anything for them to default to otherwise.

[SorO_Lost]

It doesn't specify what the physical ability scores are.

Annnnnnnnnnd neither does Awaken.

The difference between the two Spells is small, CFH creates Humanoid(human/halfing) with an NPC level and Awaken creates a Magical Beast for 250XP.

If the DM is allowing "Awakened" Animals, there is literately no reason to choose CFH. You're not paying for the XP cost and who wants the NPC level? No, it's one up over Awakened is the fact rabbits bred pretty damn fast and you can turn them into Human Experts. It's the perfect slave force since you can sacrifice them afterwards for even more bonuses and then use those corpses to feed the remaining humans.

Brings new light to Jesus feeding the horde of people with two fish don't it?

[Amechra]

I forgot that Awaken is also a 5th level spell. I misremembered it as 6th.

Still, no XP cost is a nice thing, and, well...

There's another trick that I think works:

1. Take a Tiny animal.
2. Cast Animal Growth on it.
3. Now it is Small, gets a +8 Str, +4 Con, and -2 Dex due to their increased size.
4. Cast CFH on them. Now they are a Medium sized Humanoid.
5. Animal Growth runs out... and they don't shrink. They've been set to Medium. Therefore, I'd argue that they wouldn't lose their physical ability score modifications.

Besides such iffiness, I'm pretty sure there are more easy-to-apply templates that boost Humanoids than Magical Beasts... Lycanthropy, anyone?

[SorO_Lost]

5. Animal Growth runs out... and they don't shrink. They've been set to Medium. Therefore, I'd argue that they wouldn't lose their physical ability score modifications.

If such fallacies worked, I'd cast Shapechange then Devil's Ego. When Shapechange ends, my type still remains Outsider, ergo I am now a Beholder (Mage). Because if your going to blatantly butcher things, at least aim for the big stuff 

[Amechra]

They... aren't the same thing?

Animal Growth grants those ability score bonuses as a factor of your increased size; since you never reduce your size (you are Medium; the effect ends... and you are Medium), you never lose those bonuses.

The reason I feel confident making that argument at all is that CFH is Instantaneous, and thus is a permanent change (that includes setting someone to a new size; again, they can't reduce back to their original size if they are their original size, right?)

Your example of Devil's Ego doesn't share the same property, because none of the benefits and drawbacks of either spell is contingent on your being an Outsider. You being a Beholder is not contingent on something modified by Devil's Ego at all.

Also, I did mention that it was a bit of an iffy argument; it is, however, one I will stand by until given a non-fallacious argument against it.

As soon as you can supply a valid counterargument, I'll concede; however, I'll still point to the fact that you can use Animal Growth to expand your options as to what you can target. Turning your army of bunnies into an army of formerly bunny Were-Sharks is fun times in my book.

[Kethrian]

You happen to be forgetting the final paragraph of Animal Growth, which states that multiple magical effects that increase size do not stack.  This means that when Animal Growth wears off, its effects do, too, as well as only getting a single size change between the two spells.  And then CFH's effects take over, and since it mentions no changes to stats due to size, RAW would state that you stay with the original scores.  However, I believe by RAI, you can still adjust things according to the size change chart in MM, page 291.  A small creature changing to medium, for instance, grants +4 str, -2 dex, +2 con, and -1 to the size bonus to attack and AC.  Now, take the standard dog from the MM, apply the creature size changes, and for ability scores you're looking at 17 str, 15 dex, 17 con, 3d6 int, 12 wis, 6+1d3 cha.

[Amechra]

There's a convincing argument; thanks.

I don't think you get the size adjustments, though; otherwise one of the example NPCs wouldn't have Str 8.

[8wGremlin]

More animal abuse...

Worship Bane and get the touch of hate feat, you need to be casting 5 th level divine spells.

The animal gains the beast of xvim Template - which gives it a boost to its natural attacks an increase in its cha +4 and the feed ability: as a bargest as well as other cool features.

Or better still touch the Druid when he uses that spell and they now become your bitch, cus touch of hate makes the unquestioningly obedient

Eagle or Swindlespitter dinosaur?

[Kethrian]

There's a convincing argument; thanks.

I don't think you get the size adjustments, though; otherwise one of the example NPCs wouldn't have Str 8.

Well remember, CFH is a 3.0 spell, so they may not have had the size change chart yet.

[Amechra]

Hmm...

Beast of Xzim does not change a creature's type. Excellent.

So, start with a Magebred animal, apply Warbeast to it, then tap it lightly with Beast of Xvim. Then turn them into a person with CFH, and have a Lycanthrope (I like to use Weresharks; they are just so... classy) infect them...

Sounds pretty good to me.

Wait, I just thought of something: since it doesn't say otherwise, they retain their movement speeds and subtypes. Who knew Aquaman used to be a fish?

[SorO_Lost]

They... aren't the same thing?

Just to note, it is the same thing.

(click to show/hide)

I cast Shapechange. I turn into a Beholder, as a consequence I know have the Aberration Type.
I cast Animal Growth, Small Animal is now Medium Animal.
I cast Devil's Ego, I now have the Outsider Type.
I cast _anything_ which alters my Type/Size to Medium Human
Shapechange ends, however my type remains Outsider.
Animal Growth ends, I'm still Medium.
???*cough*bullshit*cough*???
???*cough*bullshit*cough*???
Shapechange's effect, I'm a Beholder, is now a never ending effect for the rest of my life.
Animal Growth's effect, stat boosts for the added growth change, is now a never ending effect for the rest of my life.

You happen to be forgetting the final paragraph of Animal Growth, which states that multiple magical effects that increase size do not stack. ... However, I believe by RAI, you can still adjust things according to the size change chart in MM, page 291.

Correct and negative. You don't get to cast Righteous Might for a +4 Size Bonus to Str, then say the Medium-to-Large table says you further gain another +4 to Str.

When you grow larger with righteous might, do you also get the –2 penalty to Dexterity for growing from Medium to Large? The spell description does not indicate that, but other descriptions for size increase do.
No. The changes to statistics by size indicated in Table 4–2 in the MM are primarily a guideline for monster creation, rather than hard-and-fast rules. Although many size-change effects mimic the numbers given on that table, each such effect has its own unique properties that don’t necessarily match the table. (The enlarge spell, for example, grants only a +2 bonus to Strength, in contrast to the +8 bonus listed on Table 4–2.)

[Amechra]

Still not the same thing.

Now, if it said "their size increases to Medium", I'd totally agree with you. But no, the crux of my argument (which I have dropped, btw) was that it didn't adjust your size, it set it to something different. The fact that it's set at Medium means you never reduce in size.

Note that I never said that they keep the other benefits of animal growth (which are +4 to saves and DR 10/Magic), because those aren't described as a benefit of their increased size.

Seriously, you are comparing apples to oranges here; the benefits of being a Beholder aren't contingent on your type or anything, while the alterations to ability scores and natural armor are explicitly a result of the increased size. I was just noting that, after Animal Growth wears off, they are still a medium creature (as they were while under the spell), so their size doesn't get reduced, so they arguably don't lose those bonuses to ability scores.

The actual benefit of Animal Growth is +1 Size category, DR 10/Magic, and +4 Resistance bonus to Saves; it isn't my fault that they included text that overrides the normal bonuses for increased size (I think they forgot they had that table when they made the PHB; otherwise, you wouldn't get stuff like this.) CFH over-writes your size; normally, you'd lose the size benefits when you shrink back down to your normal size. However, due to Create Faux Human, you are already your normal size without shrinking, so you can't reduce your size back to your natural size, and you can't lose the benefits.

Still, I agree to drop it permanently if you do. Getting a Medium Humanoid out of a bunny is a pretty good deal in my book even without crazy ability score boosts, because of all the other crazy stuff you can toss on a Humanoid.

[FlaminCows]

I'd argue that the MM's size modifiers should take effect, because it doesn't make any sense for the new humanoid to have the strength of the bunny it was, but this effect should replace Animal Growth's effect because the creature is no longer the size it was when under the effect of Animal Growth.

So, a Tiny animal increased to Small by Animal Growth would be turned into a Medium humanoid forever by Create Faux Human, which is an Instantaneous effect and only checks for the size of the target when it is cast. The size bonuses put in place by Animal Growth would be lost as soon as Create Faux Human is cast.

[Amechra]

Flamingcow...

Thanks.

[SorO_Lost]

I'd argue that the MM's size modifiers should take effect, because it doesn't make any sense for the new humanoid to have the strength of the bunny it was,

That's a fallacy of appeal. And a pretty poor appeal at that, see a '10' is the average based off the 3~18 range. Just like the average Str of a Human that doesn't get killed early has an Str score of 4 (-6 for venerable). And believe me, that '4' is too high to be realistic. But anyway, the Human will always carry and hold more than the Bunny due to the sheer size difference, your Strength value only plays half the part in this role. So you're wrong to think a 2~4 range isn't humanly possible and that Tiny/Medium creatures can lift the same amounts due to having identicle Strength scores.

Speaking of, "new human" is a misleading term, for all you know the Turtle was 110 years old. I don't see anything anywhere in CFH that suggests age is altered and said turtle is now subject to a Human's lifespan and Age Categories. Ponder that for a moment.

The size bonuses put in place by Animal Growth would be lost as soon as Create Faux Human is cast.

CFH does not alter physical scores nor bestow Size Bonuses. You're fallacy of pathetic appeal does not change this, period. So no.

Also when a Spell Effect ends, all it's effects end. Not just the ones you want to claim "words" are an excuse to keep. And that is the real hang up. Certain people think Natural Progression grants "Size Bonuses" when they are in fact untyped modifiers(MMI291). Said people also think the static Size Modifier which based on your actual current Size and used in various checks is synonymous with the Size Bonus Type(MiC21) granted by Spells & Magical Effects. These are three entirely different things that behave in three entirely different ways and are used for three entirely different purposes.

Edit - Superscript hurt the eyes.

[Amechra]

One note:

Create Faux Human does not create a Human. It creates a Humanoid that looks identical to a Human.

If it created a Human, it would say it created a Human.

[SorO_Lost]

One note: Create Faux Human does not create a Human. It creates a Humanoid that looks identical to a Human.

Rereading it, yeah I agree.

You wouldn't gain the Age Categories, but on the same token no Racial Bonus Feat either.

[vaz]

A humans extra feat is not a bonus feat it is an 'extra feat' instead; no Alter Self shenanigans (which requires a racial bonus feat).

Gating in Solars is so yesterday. Gating in (Advanced) Great Wyrm Steel Dragons (40HD) instead is what it's all about. If they're advanced, they likely have Epic Spellcasting, if not, they're CL21 anyway (37HD). And even then, you can provide a trade in services; "Can you cast Epic Spells - yes/no"; if no "I can let you, but only if you then proceed to help me, blah blah more in-depth chatter and contract binding than I care about to list".

Get yourself Epic Spellcasting. Have fun.