SorO's Enlightenment Series Discussion

[vaz]

If it's filled with spells, then you have no Maneuvres to change with Adaptive Style, neither do you have a maneuvre you can ready. SorO is correct in this regard, there's nothing about swinging both ways. Those specify the Manuevres, not those that are known.

[SorO_Lost]

This kind of smacks of trying to have it both ways, when you later say that an ASS can't benefit from feats like Adaptive Style or Extra Readied Maneuver because they don't have any maneuvers.  If what you say above is true, then things that alter the list of Maneuvers Known(/Readied) would therefore also alter the list of Spells Known.

Is that how it's coming across?

Well, let me try rewording things. The ASS it's self grants the ability to learn Spells, which as previously discussed are in fact solely Spells, in place of learning an ASS granted Maneuver. The ASS doesn't provide access to Maneuvers, it never learns or uses a single one. It has a Maneuver Known Slots that hold Spells and that's it.

There is where part of what you spoke of comes into action. The ASS has no "Spells Known" mechanic, heavy nerfing PrC additions, however anything that increases the ASS's Maneuvers Known would apply. Adaptive Style fails because it allows you to Ready your Maneuvers as a Full-Round Action. The ASS has no Maneuvers to Ready, he has Spells that as previously discussed are not Maneuvers.

The ToB for the most part uses the term "Martial Adapt" as the collective noun for the Crusader, Swordsage and Warblade and never really defines non-Martial Adapts. This is of course pretty problemantic when we start talking about a non-Standard Swordsage without Maneuvers. The sole exception of this collective noun usage is found in the Initiator Level rules on page 39 which state "your initiator level equals your level in a class that provides access to martial maneuvers". It is here the IL for the ASS is determined to be 1/2 and the ASS is a non-Martial Adapt.

And this is why you can't use Marital Study or Martial PrCs to Expand the ASS's Maneuver's Known. MS adds the Maneuver to your Known if you are a Martial Adapt, otherwise you can use said Maneuver as a Martial Adapt of blah blah blah. PrCs per page 96 work the same. They add their Maneuvers to the Class (which is what you need) if said Class is a Martial Adapt. Items have always been a no-no, they grant use, not extra Known.

It's not that you can't expend the ASS's list of Maneuvers Known. It's just nothing (officially) printed does.

[linklord231]

It still seems kind of shaky to me.  An ASS uses the whole Maneuvers Readied/Known mechanic for casting spells (that's what "as if they were maneuvers" means).  Why do you think that things that change or expand upon the Initiation mechanic necessarily don't apply to spells using that mechanic?  I can see where you're coming from (they refer to 'maneuvers' which you don't have), but I don't think it's as cut-and-dry as you're making it out to be. 

I think it's time to actually sit down and think about what "The arcane spell is “cast” as if it were a martial maneuver" really means.  We know from grammar that what you're casting is, in fact, an arcane spell, and inherits everything that entails.  The only thing that changes is the method of casting - they're like maneuvers.  What does "cast like a maneuver" mean?  Time to go read Tome of Battle Chapter 3. 

Martial Powers
You can use your maneuvers spells as many times per day as you like, but you have to re-ready them between uses.  You use the recovery method of your class, or take a 5 minute rest to recover expended spells. 

Readying Maneuvers
The number of maneuvers spells you can ready at one time depends on your class and level.  To ready maneuvers spells, you require a brief period of practice, exercise, meditation, or prayer. The exact nature of the exercise or meditation depends on your martial adept class, but each class requires 5 minutes of preparation time. Since each martial maneuver spell requires a precise combination of techniques for gathering inner energy, training muscle memory, speaking prayers or catechisms, and even focusing the mind on specific concepts or analogies, most martial adepts can’t keep every maneuver they know at the forefront of their minds. You do not need to be well rested to ready your maneuvers spells, but you do need to be able to stand and move without restraint. As long as you are not physically disturbed during your exercise and meditation, you can exchange your previously chosen set of readied maneuvers spells for a new set of readied maneuvers spells. Unlike a wizard preparing her spells, you cannot choose to leave a readied maneuver spell slot unfilled.

Initiating a Maneuver
To initiate a maneuver or a stance cast a spell, you must be able to move. You do not need to be able to speak. You initiate a maneuver cast a spell by taking the specified initiation action. A maneuver spell might require an immediate, swift, move, standard, or full-round action to initiate. The process of initiating a maneuver casting an ASS spell is similar to that of casting a spell or manifesting a psionic power, although there are some key differences (see below). You can only choose to initiate a maneuver cast a spell that is currently readied and unexpended.

Concentration
Unlike with spells or psionic powers, you need not concentrate to initiate a maneuver or stance cast an ASS spell. Furthermore, if you are injured or affected by hostile spells, powers, or maneuvers while initiating a maneuver or assuming a stance casting a spell, you don’t lose the maneuver or stance spell.

Now, this does lead to come conflicts between the inherited rules for casting spells, and the rules you're instructed to use for casting spells "as if they were maneuvers."  Do your spells require concentration?  Do they have their normal components? 

[SorO_Lost]

Now, this does lead to come conflicts between the inherited rules for casting spells, and the rules you're instructed to use for casting spells "as if they were maneuvers."  Do your spells require concentration?  Do they have their normal components?

A Spell is still a Spell and still obeys all inherited rules about Spells. The ASS only gives the Ready/Initiation rules priority over those, not that you are to ignore them. Anything they are silent on (such as caster level) is found in the base rules as how D&D normally works.

[Frogman55]

Martial Powers
You can use your maneuvers spells as many times per day as you like, but you have to re-ready them between uses.  You use the recovery method of your class, or take a 5 minute rest to recover expended spells. 

Readying Maneuvers
The number of maneuvers spells you can ready at one time depends on your class and level.  To ready maneuvers spells, you require a brief period of practice, exercise, meditation, or prayer. The exact nature of the exercise or meditation depends on your martial adept class, but each class requires 5 minutes of preparation time. Since each martial maneuver spell requires a precise combination of techniques for gathering inner energy, training muscle memory, speaking prayers or catechisms, and even focusing the mind on specific concepts or analogies, most martial adepts can’t keep every maneuver they know at the forefront of their minds. You do not need to be well rested to ready your maneuvers spells, but you do need to be able to stand and move without restraint. As long as you are not physically disturbed during your exercise and meditation, you can exchange your previously chosen set of readied maneuvers spells for a new set of readied maneuvers spells. Unlike a wizard preparing her spells, you cannot choose to leave a readied maneuver spell slot unfilled.

Initiating a Maneuver
To initiate a maneuver or a stance cast a spell, you must be able to move. You do not need to be able to speak. You initiate a maneuver cast a spell by taking the specified initiation action. A maneuver spell might require an immediate, swift, move, standard, or full-round action to initiate. The process of initiating a maneuver casting an ASS spell is similar to that of casting a spell or manifesting a psionic power, although there are some key differences (see below). You can only choose to initiate a maneuver cast a spell that is currently readied and unexpended.

Concentration
Unlike with spells or psionic powers, you need not concentrate to initiate a maneuver or stance cast an ASS spell. Furthermore, if you are injured or affected by hostile spells, powers, or maneuvers while initiating a maneuver or assuming a stance casting a spell, you don’t lose the maneuver or stance spell.

Now, this does lead to come conflicts between the inherited rules for casting spells, and the rules you're instructed to use for casting spells "as if they were maneuvers."  Do your spells require concentration?  Do they have their normal components? 

Now, this does lead to come conflicts between the inherited rules for casting spells, and the rules you're instructed to use for casting spells "as if they were maneuvers."  Do your spells require concentration?  Do they have their normal components?

A Spell is still a Spell and still obeys all inherited rules about Spells. The ASS only gives the Ready/Initiation rules priority over those, not that you are to ignore them. Anything they are silent on (such as caster level) is found in the base rules as how D&D normally works.

So... the ASS doesn't provoke AoOs for casting (I'm assuming that's what 'don't need to concentrate' means; I'm pretty sure you'd have to concentrate on spells with a concentration duration)(It might actually be interesting to allow those spells to replace stances, but that would be wholly homebrew, and I digress), isn't vulnerable to ongoing damage, and none of his spells have a verbal component; arguably they might not have a material component either, although all of them require a somatic component.

Interesting.

[SorO_Lost]

The lack of verbal made it into the the article, just revised stuff the other night chopping some text down. I recall anything on AoOs through...

Anyway, yeah Concentration is skipped for casting but not ongoing.

[Frogman55]

Yeah, initiating a manuever doesn't require a concentration check (whether due to weather, tanglefoot, ongoing damage, etc.) and doesn't have verbal.

It's probably safe to say that a somatic component gets added to all spells, too. Which means that acf would apply to everything too. Which immediately makes Still Spell into a great metamagic feat for the ASS.

I'm away from books, so I don't remember whether or not the book explicitly says 'initiating a maneuver doesn't provoke an AoO' or whether they just don't provoke because it never says they do.

If it's an explicit mention, then the ASS's spells shouldn't provoke either. If it's not, then we go with the inherited rules, right? Meaning spells would still provoke.

[Jackinthegreen]

Page 39 of ToB under the Concentration skill has this paragraph:

You do not provoke attacks of opportunity when you initiate
a maneuver or stance unless its description explicitly says
otherwise. Some maneuvers allow you to move, charge, and
take other actions that could provoke attacks of opportunity.
Unless the maneuver description specifically says that such
actions do not provoke attacks of opportunity, they do. For
example, if you use a maneuver to charge a foe, and during
that charge you move in a way that provokes attacks of opportunity,
you provoke them as normal unless the maneuver
description explicitly says otherwise.

On page 40 under Extraordinary or Supernatural Abilities it also says:

A maneuver or stance can’t be dispelled or
counterspelled, and initiating one does not provoke attacks
of opportunity.

Page 46 under the Special Abilities section says:

Initiating a maneuver through an innate ability, or by using
a magic item, works just like initiating a maneuver normally
does. You do not provoke attacks of opportunity, and your
maneuvers are not subject to spell resistance.

[Frogman55]

So it does say that initiating a maneuver does not provoke an AoO, and since the the ASS uses the initiation method, spells don't provoke.

However, spells still =/= maneuvers, so they can still be dispelled.

Can they be counterspelled? The counterspell description says that you have to wait until your opponent 'casts a spell.' Do ASSes ever cast a spell? Or are they initiating a spell?

[skydragonknight]

Can they be counterspelled? The counterspell description says that you have to wait until your opponent 'casts a spell.' Do ASSes ever cast a spell? Or are they initiating a spell?

Can spell trigger items be counterspelled? I imagine they would be treated the same way. A spell being activated but not cast in the traditional sense.

[linklord231]

I just noticed, you said "No Maneuver/Spell Transparency is stated."  This is not the case.  ToB 40 says "In general, martial maneuvers and stances that create supernatural effects are transparent to magic or psionics." 

I don't think that's what you actually meant in context, but I thought it was worth pointing out.

Also, back to the Stances issue, it seems like under your interpretation you wouldn't throw out the entire progression, just have a much delayed one.  You wouldn't be able to pick a stance at level 1 because you don't qualify for any of them, but at level 4 when you learn your second stance you have an IL of 2 so you'd be able to pick 2 level one stances. 

On page 40 under Extraordinary or Supernatural Abilities it also says:

A maneuver or stance can’t be dispelled or
counterspelled, and initiating one does not provoke attacks
of opportunity.

I left out that part from my earlier analysis because the very first line under "Extraordinary or Supernatural Abilities" is "Martial maneuvers or stances are never spells or spell-like abilities," and what you're doing explicitly is still casting a spell (albeit in a non-standard way).  However, letting an ASS's spells count as Su abilities wouldn't really change much. 

It's probably safe to say that a somatic component gets added to all spells, too. Which means that acf would apply to everything too. Which immediately makes Still Spell into a great metamagic feat for the ASS.

No.  "Must be able to move" doesn't necessarily mean "must move".  You can't Dimension Door out of a pin, but you could DDoor while standing motionless (though you probably shouldn't be able to learn DDoor anyway, since it's Conjuration). 

Though you do bring up an interesting point - how does metamagic work for an ASS?  You do cast spells, but you aren't a prepared or spontaneous caster.  The Sudden Metamagic line would probably work though. 

[SorO_Lost]

Also, back to the Stances issue, it seems like under your interpretation you wouldn't throw out the entire progression, just have a much delayed one.  You wouldn't be able to pick a stance at level 1 because you don't qualify for any of them, but at level 4 when you learn your second stance you have an IL of 2 so you'd be able to pick 2 level one stances.

Kindof.

Yes, Stances are not Maneuvers and the entry uses the word "Maneuver", is it figuratively meaning Maneuvers or mechanically? Intent of the passage is the ASS loses his martial stuff for Spells, so if we were making a list that'd be a point for no. Stances do count as Maneuvers for the purposes of Requirements, so anything that runs a check for Maneuvers is also checking for Stances, be it checking for or against. So even if they meant the mechanical term Maneuvers there is still a way to read it as removing Stances. That's two points. Then we have mine, at the first level you have an expected illegal operation. In the world of logic, errors cannot take place and you need to revise your hypothesis until it does fit. That's three points to one (stances are not maneuvers in certain contexts may apply). So I went with Stances are dropped. The latter two points are listed for a quick explanation.

Though you do bring up an interesting point - how does metamagic work for an ASS?  You do cast spells, but you aren't a prepared or spontaneous caster.  The Sudden Metamagic line would probably work though.

Metamagics are also dependent on Spell Slots, so the article says it's a no go. It does however mention asking your DM for an exception as Metamagic Feats are extremely flexible in application. The Suddens should work perfectly of course, but those Feats kind of suck terrabad

[oslecamo]

You have Polymorph as a personal transmutation spell, yet unlike Alter Self and Shapechange, regular poly can be used in any touched willing living creature, not just yourself.

[SorO_Lost]

As Touch they are still learn able, will revise the sentence through.

[Garryl]

I'm not weighing in on the entirety of the ASS's stance/no stance issue, but in regards to the 1st level IL 0 issue, under the interpretation that the variant doesn't explicitly remove stances, it also wouldn't remove the line where the stance at 1st level is a 1st level stance, regardless of IL. Would that not then be a case of specific trumping the general maneuver level vs. IL rules, allowing a 1st level stance at IL 0?

[SorO_Lost]

Would that not then be a case of specific trumping the general maneuver level vs. IL rules, allowing a 1st level stance at IL 0?

Unlike Spells, the Maneuvers themselves have requirements. And even if the Prerequisite entry is missing, Level still redirects back to it.

Edit - If that isn't clear enough. Swordsage wants you learn a Maneuver from an open discipline, however Flame's Blessing's inherited rules say you must be an Adept/PrC/Martial_Study to learn Flame's Blessing. Ok, so what about Stance of Celerity out of Diamond Mind? Same deal. As you correctly stated, the Swordsage's Stance rules are specific, they do not provide any exceptions in the text. IL is just a front of the more detailed class/level & Adept/PrC/Martial_Study requirements found in prerequisite of each individual Maneuver because I'm writing a short-to-moderate article, not pages upon pages of legal text.

[linklord231]

Yes, Stances are not Maneuvers and the entry uses the word "Maneuver", is it figuratively meaning Maneuvers or mechanically? Intent of the passage is the ASS loses his martial stuff for Spells, so if we were making a list that'd be a point for no. Stances do count as Maneuvers for the purposes of Requirements, so anything that runs a check for Maneuvers is also checking for Stances, be it checking for or against. So even if they meant the mechanical term Maneuvers there is still a way to read it as removing Stances. That's two points. Then we have mine, at the first level you have an expected illegal operation. In the world of logic, errors cannot take place and you need to revise your hypothesis until it does fit. That's three points to one (stances are not maneuvers in certain contexts may apply). So I went with Stances are dropped. The latter two points are listed for a quick explanation.

Like I mentioned earlier, I don't think it's at all unreasonable.  I just find it odd that you want to stick as close to RAW as possible with respect to the way spells are cast, but are more comfortable siding with presumed intent regarding stances. 

[SorO_Lost]

Like I mentioned earlier, I don't think it's at all unreasonable.  I just find it odd that you want to stick as close to RAW as possible with respect to the way spells are cast, but are more comfortable siding with presumed intent regarding stances.

I'm an Intent guy first and foremost. Those "RAW" claims you seek, they are just my attention to detail and unwavering tolerance on BS.

I mean, idk how to explain this really. If you want strict RAW, Stances are a subtype of Maneuvers no matter what you think the entry claims, so the ASS should learn Spells in his Stance Known Slots not Stances (you guys are way the hell off). But this is impossible to follow up on without hitting contradictions that need houserules to work out (learn a spell from a discipline to have access to, uh-huh). So you have to work with interpretations. And those lead to dead ends because nothing clicks together.

*shrugs* I'm not losing sleep over not a definitive answer beyond if it doesn't work, then it doesn't work. I guess maybe since I already knew there was no answer on Ability Scores that I'd better be ready to meet those dead ends when found.

[FlaminCows]

One little correction to the monk section: you say that Monk and Swordsage would give you double Wisdom bonus to AC, but the FAQ shot that down.

Does the Armor Class bonus ability from the monk, swordsage, and ninja stack?
No, each of these abilities provides the same bonus. You are not able to benefit from multiple sources that have the same name more then once.

[SorO_Lost]

One little correction to the monk section: you say that Monk and Swordsage would give you double Wisdom bonus to AC, but the FAQ shot that down.

And I also recently added why X-to-Y doesn't stack in the FAQ. Just a little SorO having to retract and append as he studies new areas going on in the background.