Author Topic: Advice Needed on Core Cleric Build  (Read 11000 times)

Offline Newsman77

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Advice Needed on Core Cleric Build
« on: October 21, 2013, 05:04:33 PM »
Hello fellow gamers. I could really use your help.

Recently, I signed on to a new 3.5 campaign that's limited to PHB. You can take 1 race/class/prestige class outside that book. I'm starting at 5th level and most other players are a few levels higher, and more experienced. I thought I'd pick your brain about ways to tweak my character... to better contribute to the party. My goal is to build a pretty decent melee cleric. With that said, here's my build:

Human Cleric 5
Starting Stats: 17, 12, 16, 11, 17, 13
No deity: Took War/Travel domains and Greatsword as my weapon
Feats:
1: Power Attack
Bonus: Cleave
War Domain: Weapon Proficiency/Focus: Greatsword
3: Quicken Spell

Staring level 5.

I thought about spending my out-of-phb choice on Dragonborn of Bahamut for wings (fly is helpful)... but I've also heard Ordained Champion or Church Inquisitor was good too. Personally, I'm fine sticking with Cleric since it gives you solid spells/casting levels. What are you thoughts? Is there a better direction I should go? Thank you for your input.



Offline awaken_D_M_golem

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Re: Advice Needed on Core Cleric Build
« Reply #1 on: October 21, 2013, 05:18:27 PM »
Quickstart Cleric Archer ... I'd say Zen Archery for that 1 choice.
http://www.minmaxboards.com/index.php?topic=8756

Melee ... Divine Metamagic on Persist hands down, for your 1.


If you need to soften things up a bit (you are a Codzilla after all)
Feat Rogue 2 / Cleric 18, neither of the above goodies.
Feat Rogue in UA/SRD subs 2 fighter feats for normal Rogue class features.
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Offline Newsman77

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Re: Advice Needed on Core Cleric Build
« Reply #2 on: October 21, 2013, 05:22:59 PM »
I don't think I can use the Zen Archery or Divine Metamagic Pesist Feats, they're not in the PHB. Hmm... rogue dip. I never thought of that. Sounds interesting.

Offline jameswilliamogle

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Re: Advice Needed on Core Cleric Build
« Reply #3 on: October 21, 2013, 07:38:53 PM »
Fire and Earth domains
Improved turning
crafting and metamagics
turn 75% of the monsters in the game
make everything
combine planar binding with turning to get a hoard.
subtle for a cleric.

Offline phaedrusxy

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Re: Advice Needed on Core Cleric Build
« Reply #4 on: October 21, 2013, 09:00:04 PM »
Level 5 = Animate Undead, which is arguably the most powerful and useful undead creation spell in the game.

If you can't change your build, pick up Divine Metamagic (Quicken Spell) as your one thing outside the PHB.
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Offline Iainuki

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Re: Advice Needed on Core Cleric Build
« Reply #5 on: October 21, 2013, 09:36:51 PM »
I'm starting at 5th level and most other players are a few levels higher, and more experienced. . . .  Is there a better direction I should go?

It's possible to do as much damage as the bad melee classes in the core as a core-only melee cleric but keeping up with monster HP is much harder, verging on impossible.  Meanwhile, the best form of offense is spellcasting, in the case of cleric, SoDs.  Since you're already several levels behind, I'm recommend you go with the spellcasting.  You probably want to keep some melee ability as a backup, but the primary focus of your character should be throwing effective SoDs: blindness/deafness, hold person, bestow curse, slay living, plane shift, and so on.  Pick a PrC that boosts spellcasting like fatespinner (CAr).  Supplement that with standard caster tricks like creating undead, and you should be able to keep up.

Offline Newsman77

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Re: Advice Needed on Core Cleric Build
« Reply #6 on: October 21, 2013, 10:44:02 PM »
Wow, great advice... the animate dead idea sounds pretty cool. That could make up for being a few levels behind, when you have an army to help fight for you. In that case, would you prestige Bone Knight for the undead boost and flavor yourself maybe a traveling general from Karnath... since we're in a non-specific setting?

Creating undead is an evil right? In that case, I'd probably need to stay true neutral to keep my spontaneous healing for the party.

Offline Empirate

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Re: Advice Needed on Core Cleric Build
« Reply #7 on: October 22, 2013, 08:18:19 AM »
Quicken Spell at 3rd level? For quickening level -2 spells, I assume. Seriously, that's a good feat... once you hit 9th or 12th level. At 3rd, you want Craft Wondrous Item, or Extend Spell, or Improved Initiative. Or Spell Focus (Conjuration), so you can take Augment Summoning at 6th - and yes, summoning is just as good on a Cleric as it is on a Wizard, and you can accompany your summoned buddies in melee!

Offline Gribel

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Re: Advice Needed on Core Cleric Build
« Reply #8 on: October 22, 2013, 09:40:50 AM »
Pick the Tome of Battle as your other book and go Ruby Knight Vindicator with a Crusader dip.
Oh, and stinking cloud has to be one of my favorate battlefield spells. Combined with sleet stor, you can shut a group down and keep them shut down, trapped inside a fart. When does that ever get old?

Offline Jackinthegreen

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Re: Advice Needed on Core Cleric Build
« Reply #9 on: October 22, 2013, 03:04:21 PM »
As mentioned, Quicken Spell at 3rd level is meaningless.  It's a +4 spell level modifier which means that normally you'll have to have 4th level spell slots to cast a quickened 0 level spell.  If you're already stuck with that build then ask if you can swap it because of it being an oversight.

If you read that Quicken was a good feat choice at 3rd then keep in mind the only way it's going to be useful at that level is if you have Divine Metamagic for it.  Considering you haven't said non-core feats are available then, again, it's not going to help you.

If you're pretty well limited to PHB then I don't recommend taking anything from Tome of Battle because it's very, very likely going to cause problems with your DM or other players.

Core melee won't work so well since you won't have quite the resources (mostly spells and feats, especially stuff like Persistent Spell and Divine Metamagic used for a 24 hour Divine Power) that make clerics better in combat.

You'll want to PrC out of cleric as soon as possible (within reason) since it doesn't have any class features gained past 1st level.  I believe Church Inquisitor is the earliest PrC available since it has very low requirements, but that might not work for you since the fluff behind it is you're dedicated to weeding out corruption within your religion.  Plus you have to be Lawful Good or Lawful Neutral and a member of a Lawful Good church so there's no way you're going to be using Animate Dead because it's an Evil spell.

By the way, there's a bit of an annoying line in the cleric description that says you can't be true neutral unless your deity is also true neutral.  If you're going to be TN then you'll want to make sure there is a deity that works there, or that your DM is okay ignoring that rule.

Ordained Champion might work for you if you want to go more into melee, but it does lose caster levels at 1st and 4th.  The War Caster ability gained at 5th that adds +2 to your CL for War domain spells thus makes you only as good as a full cleric at casting them unless you have the feat Practiced Spellcaster.  You'd need to redo the fluff a bit if you don't have Hextor or Heironeous in your game's pantheon, but if you can refluff it such that you can be Lawful Neutral and worship a neutral or evil deity then you could still pull the Animate Dead stuff.  Most people only go 3 levels into the class for the Channel Spell ability.

If you still value your spontaneous healing you might not want to go into Ordained Champion because it gets rid of spontaneous cure/inflict spells and trades them for spontaneously casting War domain spells instead.  The feat Spontaneous Healer can bring that ability back in a limited way, but since it's a non-core feat you might not have access to it.

In terms of pure casting the Contemplative is a viable option once you're past 10th level.  The fluff requirements can typically be met through using a Commune spell.  However, it might not be advisable to go in it past 6th level since at 7th you get Spell Resistance (which will screw up anyone else trying to buff you, but won't screw up your own buff spells) and then at 10th you become an Outsider which means you're not subject to certain spells that might help you such as Enlarge Person.

Unless you know you'll be facing many foes during most encounters instead of a single big one, drop Cleave.  You've got better ways (spells) to take out multiple targets, especially if they're able to stick around for a bit and hamper a bigger bad in the encounter.

How does your DM do experience, by the way?  The DMG has a table that shows various experience levels and notes on page 37 that lower level characters in a party actually get more experience (because the encounter was a tougher challenge for them) than higher-level characters in the party  If your DM runs things that way then looking into Crafting feats might be a wise idea because you're somewhat compensated for cutting into your XP.  If the DM simply hands out the same XP reward to everyone then crafting might not be as nice, but it'll still be useful since you're probably not likely to get all the magical doodads you or your party want or need.
« Last Edit: October 22, 2013, 03:47:52 PM by Jackinthegreen »

Offline Sjappo

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Re: Advice Needed on Core Cleric Build
« Reply #10 on: October 22, 2013, 03:07:26 PM »
Just curious. Why do you have to start 2 lvls behind the rest? Because you are less experienced they make you play a crippled character? What gives?
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Offline Newsman77

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Re: Advice Needed on Core Cleric Build
« Reply #11 on: October 22, 2013, 03:48:11 PM »
Thank you so much again, for helping me with this. I'm kinda stumped as to where to go since I know 4e but not 3.5e that well.

Just curious. Why do you have to start 2 lvls behind the rest? Because you are less experienced they make you play a crippled character? What gives?

I start 2 levels behind... because the group is established and you can only come in at the lowest level of the party. There were a few joining and not showing up... so they were 5... hence I am 5. Mostly others are 7.

How does your DM do experience, by the way?  The DMG has a table that shows various experience levels and notes on page 37 that lower level characters in a party actually get more experience (because the encounter was a tougher challenge for them) than higher-level characters in the party  If your DM runs things that way then looking into Crafting feats might be a wise idea because you're somewhat compensated for cutting into your XP.  If the DM simply hands out the same XP reward to everyone then crafting might not be as nice, but it'll still be useful since you're probably not likely to get all the magical doodads you or your party want or need.

The DM is pretty awesome. He breaks up the xp, based on the characters level. As 5th, I got somewhat more than the 7th level folks. I could catch up eventually I think.

As mentioned, Quicken Spell at 3rd level is meaningless.  It's a +4 spell level modifier which means that normally you'll have to have 4th level spell slots to cast a quickened 0 level spell.  If you're already stuck with that build then ask if you can swap it because of it being an oversight.

I took it so I could take Leadership at 6th... and be ready for Quicken at 8th - 9th. Coming from 4e back to 3.5e, I wasn't really sure what else was good. I did see where I'm allowed to buy a Metamagic Rod, not sure if that helps like the feat does. I doubt it.

Considering you haven't said non-core feats are available then, again, it's not going to help you.

If you're pretty well limited to PHB then I don't recommend taking anything from Tome of Battle because it's very, very likely going to cause problems with your DM or other players.

    Yep, very limited to PHB & DMG. I can understand with a lot of players, you don't want people dragging in the most obscure things and outshine everyone else. I actually like the PHB stuff, but I can see where it keeps you out of DMM, which is very powerful.

Core melee won't work so well since you won't have quite the resources (mostly spells and feats, especially stuff like Persistent Spell and Divine Metamagic used for a 24 hour Divine Power) that make clerics better in combat.

You'll want to PrC out of cleric as soon as possible (within reason) since it doesn't have any class features gained past 1st level.  I believe Church Inquisitor is the earliest PrC available since it has very low requirements, but that might not work for you since the fluff behind it is you're dedicated to weeding out corruption within your religion.  Plus you have to be Lawful Good or Lawful Neutral and a member of a Lawful Good church so there's no way you're going to be using Animate Dead because it's an Evil spell.

Ordained Champion might work for you if you want to go more into melee, but it does lose caster levels at 1st and 4th.  The War Caster ability gained at 5th that adds +2 to your CL for War domain spells thus makes you only as good as a full cleric at casting them unless you have the feat Practiced Spellcaster.  You'd need to redo the fluff a bit if you don't have Hextor or Heironeous in your game's pantheon, but if you can refluff it such that you can be Lawful Neutral and worship a neutral or evil deity then you could still pull the Animate Dead stuff.  Most people only go 3 levels into the class for the Channel Spell ability.


   You raise a lot of valid points here. I thought about both of these classes. My worry with Ordained Champion is that I couldn't case heals spontaneously anymore.  I almost went Church Inquisitor. I will likely just stay with Cleric and use my one out of PHB source for Contemplative. A group member said the party looks down on animating undead... but I still have summoning :)!!!

Unless you know you'll be facing many foes during most encounters instead of a single big one, drop Cleave.  You've got better ways (spells) to take out multiple targets, especially if they're able to stick around for a bit and hamper a bigger bad in the encounter.

Gotcha, thank you for the advice. I'll drop Quicken Spell and Cleave and pick up something more useful.. maybe Skill Focus: Conjuration and Augment Summoning. Staying back a bit and using Undead/Summons to help augment my combat seems like the best route to go.

Again, I can't thank you guys enough for the direction! You're advice is invaluable!!
« Last Edit: October 22, 2013, 04:37:46 PM by Newsman77 »

Offline linklord231

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Re: Advice Needed on Core Cleric Build
« Reply #12 on: October 22, 2013, 09:36:45 PM »
I believe a Lawful Good cleric of Wee Jas could cast animate dead out of his domain slot even though it's an evil spell.
AFB at the moment so I can't double check though.
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Offline Sjappo

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Re: Advice Needed on Core Cleric Build
« Reply #13 on: October 23, 2013, 03:17:00 AM »
Thank you so much again, for helping me with this. I'm kinda stumped as to where to go since I know 4e but not 3.5e that well.

Just curious. Why do you have to start 2 lvls behind the rest? Because you are less experienced they make you play a crippled character? What gives?

I start 2 levels behind... because the group is established and you can only come in at the lowest level of the party. There were a few joining and not showing up... so they were 5... hence I am 5. Mostly others are 7.
I so hate that rule. It is unfair to new players that they have to pay the price for, in this case, lazy players. Detracts from their fun. And yes, being 2 BAB or 1 whole spelllevel behind the more powerfull melee/casters is a lot at this level.

And punishing players for not showing up by making their characters less fun won't make them show up more either.
[/tangent]

I wouldn't worry to much about loosing out on spontaneous cure spells. Healing in combat is overrated as it is. Out of combat healing can be done easily with a wand of CLW. And if you HAVE to be able to heal in combat, shove a potion down their throat, which they can do themselves, or cast a prepared Cure anything you saved for such an occasion. If you really want to be that melee cleric Ordained Champion is very good.

It would help to get the layout of the rest of the party. Are you the only divine caster? Can the resident Druid or Bard help out with the curing business. How about melee? Are you teaming up with an half-orc barbarian or a weapon finesse fighter?

Getting a reach weapon can change combat around a lot and will make you good friends with the resident backstabber. Not sure how much mileage you’re going to get out of power attack seeing as you lag 2 levels in BAB behind and have medium BAB to start with.

Metamagic is pretty costly. And without DMM or other ways to make it cheaper probably not worth it. Especially since you already are a spelllevel behind the other casters.

Browsing to the PHB I found that there are not many very good core feats. Improved Innitiative comes to mind. Going first is always good as a caster.

Concerning the Leadeship / Summoning / Animate Dead routes. Talk to your DM and co—players first. Flooding the battlefield with minions changes the game immensely. As is being able to play 2 characters (cohort). Get the go-ahead from DM and players first.
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Offline Newsman77

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Re: Advice Needed on Core Cleric Build
« Reply #14 on: October 23, 2013, 08:47:33 AM »
I wouldn't worry to much about loosing out on spontaneous cure spells. Healing in combat is overrated as it is. Out of combat healing can be done easily with a wand of CLW. And if you HAVE to be able to heal in combat, shove a potion down their throat, which they can do themselves, or cast a prepared Cure anything you saved for such an occasion. If you really want to be that melee cleric Ordained Champion is very good.

It would help to get the layout of the rest of the party. Are you the only divine caster? Can the resident Druid or Bard help out with the curing business. How about melee? Are you teaming up with an half-orc barbarian or a weapon finesse fighter?

There are 2 melee oriented cleric/fighters/? that are very good to team up with. I can create combat advantage with them. There are 2-3 Rangers with pets. One guy is playing 2 characters... cleric + wizard maybe, I'm not sure... Then there's a monk. So I guess loosing those spontaneous heals isn't really a problem.

Metamagic is pretty costly. And without DMM or other ways to make it cheaper probably not worth it. Especially since you already are a spelllevel behind the other casters.

Concerning the Leadeship / Summoning / Animate Dead routes. Talk to your DM and co—players first. Flooding the battlefield with minions changes the game immensely. As is being able to play 2 characters (cohort). Get the go-ahead from DM and players first.

The animate dead route was nixed because it was too evil. I feel like the summoning is the last niche I can really use to my advantage. I could just hang back and cast, but that's not really my style. I'd a fan of Roosevelt... "walk softly and carry a big stick" ... then whack what stands in front of you. :)



Offline Sjappo

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Re: Advice Needed on Core Cleric Build
« Reply #15 on: October 23, 2013, 10:33:16 AM »
Holy crap. That's a lot of players. Between you and me, I wouldn't go the summoning route. With so many melee combattants already on the field.

Are you married to being a cleric? Seeing as there are more than a few divine casters in your party already. How about a arcane gish? Like a Sorcadin. Paladin 2 / Sorcerer 6 going for Eldritch knight is core and not to shabby. You could even go Abjurant Champion as your non core class. Or spellsword. With the 3 high stats you have you got STR, CHA en CON covered.

You even have more than a few uneven stats. +1 items are just 1000 GP if your DM will let you use the item creation rules in the DMG and will raise the bonus from the stat with +1. Quite the bargain.

Arcane Spell Failure will suck though in core. Maybe try to get Githcraft / Midnight / whats-it-name-padding in. (Eternal) wand of Mage Armor and Shield will work in a pinch though.
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Offline Sjappo

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Re: Advice Needed on Core Cleric Build
« Reply #16 on: October 23, 2013, 10:35:13 AM »
Holy crap. That's a lot of players. Between you and me, I wouldn't go the summoning route. With so many melee combattants already on the field.

Are you married to being a cleric? Seeing as there are more than a few divine casters in your party already. How about a arcane gish? Like a Sorcadin. Paladin 2 / Sorcerer 6 going for Eldritch knight is core and not to shabby. You could even go Abjurant Champion as your non core class. Or spellsword swiftblade (doh!). With the 3 high stats you have you got STR, CHA en CON covered.

You even have more than a few uneven stats. +1 items are just 1000 GP if your DM will let you use the item creation rules in the DMG and will raise the bonus from the stat with +1. Quite the bargain.

Arcane Spell Failure will suck though in core. Maybe try to get Githcraft / Midnight / whats-it-name-padding in. (Eternal) wand of Mage Armor and Shield will work in a pinch though.
"You know you count as artillery when it would be easier to use divination magic to locate your target than a spot check"

Offline CaptRory

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Re: Advice Needed on Core Cleric Build
« Reply #17 on: October 23, 2013, 11:11:16 AM »
You have a lot of players. A lot of whom have pets and companions. Maybe a bard? Bardic music works better the more people you have listening to it. Bards also get a good variety of utility magic and aren't half bad with a bow. You also get access to The Bardic Knock Spell. Spoony Video so language warning.

Offline phaedrusxy

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Re: Advice Needed on Core Cleric Build
« Reply #18 on: October 23, 2013, 11:40:39 AM »
You have a lot of players. A lot of whom have pets and companions. Maybe a bard? Bardic music works better the more people you have listening to it. Bards also get a good variety of utility magic and aren't half bad with a bow. You also get access to The Bardic Knock Spell. Spoony Video so language warning.
Bards probably gain more from non-core books than just about any other class, though... While it is certainly possible to play an effective core bard, it is not easy. Their Inspire Courage progression is nothing to write home about... and boosting it substantially requires dumpster diving through a bunch of splat books, unfortunately.
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Offline jameswilliamogle

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Re: Advice Needed on Core Cleric Build
« Reply #19 on: October 24, 2013, 10:22:10 PM »
Being a few behind the others I strongly recommend crafting.  Very strong in core for a cleric. Craft magic arms and armorial. Wands. Scrolls.