Author Topic: [3.5, Eberron] Apostle of Peace/Gray Guard Build?  (Read 19578 times)

Offline davethebrave

  • Lurker
  • *
  • Posts: 26
  • Procrustean Dystopian
    • View Profile
[3.5, Eberron] Apostle of Peace/Gray Guard Build?
« on: October 23, 2013, 02:26:14 PM »
Hey everybody!

I'm playing in a game run by an old player of mine, set in the aftermath of the 3 year long Eberron campaign I ran for him and 6 other friends, so I really want to give the players (and the DM) a bit of a twist in my character. I am not worried at all about this DM vetting the Gray Guard PrC interacting with Apostle of Peace and the Exalted Feats argument (when the time comes), so consider that out of the way. He's a cool guy, doesn't afraid of anything, etc.

I tend to play pacifist characters (used Subdual Substitution in a 3.0 game to make a nonlethal wizard, and have had a chain of pacifist/nonlethal/mind controlling/diplomancer characters since), and I want to have everyone eye-rolling that I'm doing Apostle of Peace finally, the WotC sanctioned version of all the other characters I've made, and then switch it up and decide there are hard choices to make. I'm modeling a lot of my character development for this one off of Tolstoyan Christian Anarchism/Anarcho-Pacifism (for the levels pre-Gray Guard) into Peter Gelderloos' call to diversify radical tactics in How Nonviolence Protects the State, adapted for Eberron's political milieu, of course (just fluff, but it might help people to get an idea of conceptual context).

The game is 4d6 drop the lowest and re-roll 1s for stats, starting at ECL/Level 1, in a homebrew'd Eberron that basically allows material from any WotC product (online or off), with DM final say if something doesn't seem to serve story or fun. Party has 8 players total, including me, and everything is basically covered in terms of party roles. I'm the last person to figure out what I'm doing, and they've got combat nailed down with all their Tome of Battle and spellcaster goodness, so I decided to insert a Trojan Horse into the campaign of a peaceful combat-useless git that explodes into a rule-breaking powerhouse as the violent direct action he witnesses his compatriots execute on horrific forces (with gusto!) noticeably moves the causes of good forward in the world.

Problem is, I haven't gamed 3.5 D&D since the conclusion of that game 4+ years ago, and even that was a 3 year long stint of DMing and not playing. I need a little help making this build because the superstructure of my mechanical knowledge has become so rusty everyone on this thread is going to need to make a Fort save vs. the harsh metallic dust storm that has been disturbed into being by the posting of this thread or take 3d10 points of damage and -2 on all rolls until 1d6 rounds of fresh air have passed through lungs after leaving the thread. A DC 15 Spot check through the storm will reveal no piece of the previously majestic iron superstructure exceeds that of a spec of red dust. There is no treasure.

Basically, I want to get to Gray Guard 10 as quickly as possible, but I want to have been an Apostle of Peace beforehand for at least one level. That way once the level 10 ability hits, I can just dive back into Apostle of Peace, gleefully disregarding the restrictions (as a player, I'm sure the character will be very grim about it) as I continue to benefit.

Thanks in advance for your time!  :D
Yours,
Dave the Brave

Offline Captnq

  • DnD Handbook Writer
  • ****
  • Posts: 1602
  • Haters gonna hate. Dragons gonna drag.
    • View Profile
    • Ask the Captain
Re: [3.5, Eberron] Apostle of Peace/Gray Guard Build?
« Reply #1 on: October 23, 2013, 06:29:23 PM »
Well...

Go HERE and HERE.

That should cover your Spells and Weapons.

Now, Gray Guard/Apostle of Peace. That's gonna be harsh. You don't Qualify for a AoP until level 8 typically. Gray guard you can qualify by level 6.

Now, AoP:
Alignment: Any good.
Base Save Bonuses: Will +5.
Skills: Concentration 10 ranks, Diplomacy 6 ranks.
Feats: Sacred Vow, Vow of Nonviolence, Vow of Peace,
Vow of Poverty.

and Gray Guard:
Alignment: Lawful good.
Skills: Knowledge (religion) 8 ranks, Sense Motive 4 ranks.
Special: Lay on hands class feature.
Special: Must adhere to a code of conduct that prevents the
character from performing evil acts.

So you're looking at starting out a paladin until 5, Gray Guard at 6-7, AoP at 8.

Look. HERE is my big list of spellcasting classes.

If you can keep your BAB up, you can dip into Prestige Paladin and ranger for spells, because the AoP spell lists sucks.

I need more info for what you looking for.
If you have questions about 3.5 D&D, you might want to look at the:
Encyclopedia Vinculum Draconis

Currently: Podcasting

Offline davethebrave

  • Lurker
  • *
  • Posts: 26
  • Procrustean Dystopian
    • View Profile
Re: [3.5, Eberron] Apostle of Peace/Gray Guard Build?
« Reply #2 on: October 23, 2013, 07:08:50 PM »
Well, I don't know what Paladin PrCs I'd want to beef up my touch attack as much as possible, AoP and Gray Guard both have touch abilities...maybe also increase my lay on hands uses per day? Once I can freely violate my twin VoPs, I feel like I'm going to be a weapon opportunist, mostly unarmed but using whatever I can and discarding them as necessary. So maybe a focus on unarmed and/or improvised weapons? Anything like that exist?
Yours,
Dave the Brave

Offline davethebrave

  • Lurker
  • *
  • Posts: 26
  • Procrustean Dystopian
    • View Profile
Re: [3.5, Eberron] Apostle of Peace/Gray Guard Build?
« Reply #3 on: October 23, 2013, 07:09:28 PM »
Oh, I have also just been informed we can take up to two flaws from Unearthed Arcana to get up to two bonus feats.
Yours,
Dave the Brave

Offline Captnq

  • DnD Handbook Writer
  • ****
  • Posts: 1602
  • Haters gonna hate. Dragons gonna drag.
    • View Profile
    • Ask the Captain
Re: [3.5, Eberron] Apostle of Peace/Gray Guard Build?
« Reply #4 on: October 23, 2013, 07:37:10 PM »
Isn't there a feat that lets you be a paladin/monk or something?
If you have questions about 3.5 D&D, you might want to look at the:
Encyclopedia Vinculum Draconis

Currently: Podcasting

Offline davethebrave

  • Lurker
  • *
  • Posts: 26
  • Procrustean Dystopian
    • View Profile
Re: [3.5, Eberron] Apostle of Peace/Gray Guard Build?
« Reply #5 on: October 23, 2013, 08:02:47 PM »
Ascetic Knight from Complete Adventurer?
Yours,
Dave the Brave

Offline Captnq

  • DnD Handbook Writer
  • ****
  • Posts: 1602
  • Haters gonna hate. Dragons gonna drag.
    • View Profile
    • Ask the Captain
Re: [3.5, Eberron] Apostle of Peace/Gray Guard Build?
« Reply #6 on: October 23, 2013, 08:11:07 PM »
Yes, that's it.  See if that helps. And look up the ward cestus if you are going the monk route in the weapon handbook.
If you have questions about 3.5 D&D, you might want to look at the:
Encyclopedia Vinculum Draconis

Currently: Podcasting

Offline davethebrave

  • Lurker
  • *
  • Posts: 26
  • Procrustean Dystopian
    • View Profile
Re: [3.5, Eberron] Apostle of Peace/Gray Guard Build?
« Reply #7 on: October 23, 2013, 08:18:32 PM »
The ward cestus is looking pretty nice!
Yours,
Dave the Brave

Offline davethebrave

  • Lurker
  • *
  • Posts: 26
  • Procrustean Dystopian
    • View Profile
Re: [3.5, Eberron] Apostle of Peace/Gray Guard Build?
« Reply #8 on: October 23, 2013, 08:48:28 PM »
Spell-wise and spare feat-wise, I guess I'm looking for stuff that can help me keep foes immobile, reduce their AC, stop them from fighting (or defending)...anything to give me the upper hand with my fists, ward cestus, bottle of wine, chair, etc.

Focus on Cha skills, I guess, since at least at first I'm RPing this guy as a peaceful problem solver and open listening communicator.

Any other details help?
Yours,
Dave the Brave

Offline Jackinthegreen

  • DnD Handbook Writer
  • ****
  • Posts: 6176
  • I like green.
    • View Profile
Re: [3.5, Eberron] Apostle of Peace/Gray Guard Build?
« Reply #9 on: October 23, 2013, 09:12:00 PM »
The typical feat used to keep opponents from moving is Stand Still.  However, I have a feeling you might not be going for a lockdown build.  Usually that kind of thing is done with fighter, psychic warrior, or even some barbarian or crusader.

I think I recall there is the Merciful weapon enhancement (might be in MiC) that turns all a weapon's damage into nonlethal, so you could perhaps knock things unconscious and all that if you really wanted.
« Last Edit: October 23, 2013, 09:14:26 PM by Jackinthegreen »

Offline davethebrave

  • Lurker
  • *
  • Posts: 26
  • Procrustean Dystopian
    • View Profile
Re: [3.5, Eberron] Apostle of Peace/Gray Guard Build?
« Reply #10 on: October 23, 2013, 10:26:47 PM »
I know Apostle of Peace opens up specific magic items (protection-based, non-armor magic items) as a-ok (although eventually I'll be able to vow-break all over the place), and I was wondering if there were any that fit particularly well that are weird finds or from other campaign settings or the like?
Yours,
Dave the Brave

Offline davethebrave

  • Lurker
  • *
  • Posts: 26
  • Procrustean Dystopian
    • View Profile
Re: [3.5, Eberron] Apostle of Peace/Gray Guard Build?
« Reply #11 on: October 24, 2013, 02:14:45 AM »
I am tentatively thinking of going Paladin 5/Monk 2/AoP1/Gray Guard 10 then back into AoP? I wanted to grab the Weapon and Armor Proficiency exception to the VoP before starting down the path of Gray Guard, so I can use proection-based magic items. Does this seem like a reasonable progression?
Yours,
Dave the Brave

Offline DavidWL

  • Hero Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 506
    • View Profile
Re: [3.5, Eberron] Apostle of Peace/Gray Guard Build?
« Reply #12 on: October 24, 2013, 02:34:03 AM »
If bloodlines were allowed, they'd help, as they only cost exp (exp is a river) and would let you "break" skill caps, giving earlier access to prestige classes.

Best,
David

Offline davethebrave

  • Lurker
  • *
  • Posts: 26
  • Procrustean Dystopian
    • View Profile
Re: [3.5, Eberron] Apostle of Peace/Gray Guard Build?
« Reply #13 on: October 24, 2013, 02:49:34 AM »
I'm not super familiar with bloodlines, but I imagine my DM'd be fine with them. I'd need to run it past him, but I don't see why not. What in particular would help me hit the prereqs quicker?
Yours,
Dave the Brave

Offline Jackinthegreen

  • DnD Handbook Writer
  • ****
  • Posts: 6176
  • I like green.
    • View Profile
Re: [3.5, Eberron] Apostle of Peace/Gray Guard Build?
« Reply #14 on: October 24, 2013, 02:50:17 AM »
If bloodlines were allowed, they'd help, as they only cost exp (exp is a river) and would let you "break" skill caps, giving earlier access to prestige classes.

Best,
David

XP being a river only works if the DM gives more XP to lower level characters in a party.  I'm not so sure many DMs actually use that rule, especially if they have some annoying players who would whine about XP not being an equal share.

Offline Skevvix

  • Full Member
  • **
  • Posts: 154
  • I'm new!
    • View Profile
Re: [3.5, Eberron] Apostle of Peace/Gray Guard Build?
« Reply #15 on: October 24, 2013, 03:01:26 AM »
If bloodlines were allowed, they'd help, as they only cost exp (exp is a river) and would let you "break" skill caps, giving earlier access to prestige classes.

Best,
David

XP being a river only works if the DM gives more XP to lower level characters in a party.  I'm not so sure many DMs actually use that rule, especially if they have some annoying players who would whine about XP not being an equal share.

Unless the DM just gives out levels, you would eventually catch up due to not needing as much xp to make the level as the rest, albeit slower than if it was a river.

Offline davethebrave

  • Lurker
  • *
  • Posts: 26
  • Procrustean Dystopian
    • View Profile
Re: [3.5, Eberron] Apostle of Peace/Gray Guard Build?
« Reply #16 on: October 24, 2013, 03:25:21 AM »
Yeah, this DM gives bonus XP for various things, including RP bumps per session, I can catch up.
Yours,
Dave the Brave

Offline awaken_D_M_golem

  • Epic Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 7639
  • classique style , invisible tail
    • View Profile
Re: [3.5, Eberron] Apostle of Peace/Gray Guard Build?
« Reply #17 on: October 25, 2013, 04:37:07 PM »
hmm , I don't usually Paladin ...
but that Gray Guard 1 is decent enough for an
"ends justifies the means" approach to pally.
Except for the chat with the DM.  And the
Gray Guard 10 ability gets around the DM.

You can early qualify a little, or lots of cheese.
You can PHB2 Rebuild the levels in faster
which is very cheesy, but useful.
Paladin 2 / rebuild cheese / Gray Guard 10
and then go to town with stuff a LG tightwad
usually can not do at all.

Paladin 2 / X 2 / Gray Guard Y / AoP 1 (or 2) / Gray Guard the rest of it / mild cheddar stuff for non-LG
... somebody has got to be way better at pally than me.
Heck the AoP legally "mis"-played gets the standard Planar Ally loop going.
Dial down from there.

Monastic Servant of Auppenser PrC to get Psi going in the AoP casting (- the mind control).
Get the Sardior PrC from wotc mind's eye to go Telepathy.
« Last Edit: October 25, 2013, 04:39:31 PM by awaken_D_M_golem »
Your codpiece is a mimic.

Offline Iainuki

  • DnD Handbook Writer
  • **
  • Posts: 249
  • Breaker of games
    • View Profile
Re: [3.5, Eberron] Apostle of Peace/Gray Guard Build?
« Reply #18 on: October 25, 2013, 06:51:31 PM »
Apostle of peace has... issues, including a variety of balance and rules issues.  I don't know how much your DM is changing the rules for you, so I'm just going to go down the list of basic problems and you can tell me what's happening with them.

1) The Vow feats and gray guard.  Since you lose the feats if you don't follow them and until you hit level 10 gray guard isn't going to help you, because the feats don't give you the chance to atone if you voluntarily break them, you are going to be every bit as crippled, and harmful to your party, as any other apostle of peace.

2) Even once you hit gray guard 10, Vow of Nonviolence will still screw over your party.  "Your purity is so great that any ally of yours who slays a helpless or defenseless foe within 120 feet of you feels great remorse. Your ally takes a -1 morale penalty on his attack rolls for 1 hour per your character level. For each helpless foe slain, the attack penalty increases by 1, to a maximum equal to your character level."  (BE)  RAW, sacrament of the true faith affects you, not your allies, so they'll still be taking massive morale penalties for killing.

3) Apostle of peace doesn't lift any of the Vow restrictions, RAW.  It says, "As part of their sacred vows, apostles of peace forswear the use of armor, though they may wear magic items that protect them (such as a ring of protection or bracers of armor)."  Meanwhile, Vow of Poverty prohibits the use of magic items.  As it is, this is a class-based conduct restriction that would cause you to lose your apostle of peace features directly if you violate it, but violating Vow of Poverty's conduct requirements causes you to lose the feat which in turn costs you your apostle of peace class features too.

My next question is: what do you envision this character doing?  The "normal" way of using Vow of Nonviolence is by finding spells that don't technically kill their targets like baleful polymorph and using the +4 to save DCs to incapacitate enemies without killing them.  At that point you can get into fun arguments with your DM about what counts as killing, "great harm," and so on.  Spells that put enemies in stasis like imprisonment?  What about feeblemind, which doesn't technically do ability damage?  And so on.  Do you care about mattering in combat at all?  The apostle of peace spell list has adequate though not strong out-of-combat utility but only a very few spells that can be used in combat other than defensively, including buffs that help your allies incapacitate or kill things.   With bonuses to Bluff, Disguise, Intimidate, and Diplomacy from gray guard and the Vow feats, and the prerequisites of gray guard and apostle of peace, paladin levels and Diplomacy 6, Sense Motive 4, Knowledge (religion) 8, and Concentration 10, you're pretty much forced to a social-skills focus, probably Bluff, Diplomacy, and Sense Motive since I'll doubt you have the points for anything more than those, the prereqs, and keeping Concentration maxed.

Since I don't have a good sense of what you want your character to do, in or out of combat, my other advice is somewhat limited.  With flaws, you should have no trouble getting the required feats in time, so you should be able to enter apostle of peace at 8th level.  As you can enter gray guard at 6th, you need to get to gray guard 10 ASAP, and it doesn't advance spellcasting until 2nd level, you want to take one level of gray guard ASAP.  You need two levels of paladin for gray guard, but more levels doesn't give you much of anything you care about.  That leaves you with four levels of classes to get a +5 Will save and the prerequisite skills.  Obvious candidate classes include cleric, preferably cloistered, and monk, since you can't wear armor anyways, but there are also non-core options like marshal and, oddly, swordsage.  Your first level should probably some class that gets more than 2 + Int skills.  Spellcasting classes will increase your caster level with apostle of peace, and if you take all four of those levels in spellcasting classes, with Practiced Spellcaster you'll only be one level behind in casting.

1: ?; Sacred Vow, Vow of Peace, Vow of Nonviolence
2: ?;
3: paladin; Vow of Poverty
4: paladin
5: ?
6: gray guard; ?
7: ?
8: apostle of peace
9: gray guard; Practiced Spellcaster

Offline davethebrave

  • Lurker
  • *
  • Posts: 26
  • Procrustean Dystopian
    • View Profile
Re: [3.5, Eberron] Apostle of Peace/Gray Guard Build?
« Reply #19 on: October 25, 2013, 11:42:31 PM »
1) Until I hit level 10 Gray Guard, I am going to be massively hampered by the Vows, yes. Plan to remain conflicted but vow-loyal until I hit that ability. In combat terms, support/healing as much as possible on every turn...the only problem is, I kind of wanted to focus (post-GG10) on unarmed/ward cestus proficiency, making the character into a bit of a smite-tank. I want smites that maximize the damage output of my unarmed, since I'll probably still be RPing a "no possessions" thing most of the time, even after GG10. It's just that, as you say, I'll be kind of useless trying to build up to that beforehand. Which is basically fine by me, as long as I can be good at smiting things hard with my fists/ward cestus after GG10.

2) My DM will interpret defenseless and helpless consistently and fairly over time, I trust that, and I trust that the players will be fine recognizing that one way of ending a combat comes with a cost.

3) I am of the understanding that the ruling interpretation of the PrC overriding the Feat is fine with my DM.

So basically, spells-wise, feats-wise and combat-wise, I'm looking at stuff to aid my smiting/unarmed melee attacks as 1st priority (more smiting, additional effects on smites esp. better chances to hit/more damage/additional types of damage, etc, as well as just all around increased chances to melee damage or chances to hit in melee, or unarmed specifically), healing as 2nd, general support for my party as 3rd.

Out of combat/skills-wise, he will be a face and a diplomat and a mediator, that much is certain. As GG 10 hits, the morally ambiguous uses of Cha skills will become a spice used sparingly, but more often than you'd expect a LG Apostle of Peace to whip out for sure. Nonmagical healing via the skill, also an out of combat focus.

Does that help clarify what I'm looking for a bit better?
Yours,
Dave the Brave