[3.5] Sorceror/Incantrix Gish (with House-Ruled Spells Known)

[Sarethus]

Greetings all,

I'm looking for help with a character in a new game that is going to be started up. The character concept I have in mind is a Human Sorceror who starts out pretty strong in the evocation and abjuration magic department but as he adventures becomes somewhat capable in melee.

Game Info: 32 point buy. Game starts at Level 5, DM allows most books and as our group have gamed together  for some time only requests no deliberate or game-breaking cheese. Other player characters are a Paladin, Beguiler and Druid.

Character Info: My personal RP restrictions are the character should be human (no Dragon-touch shennanigans) and is probably going to be Chaotic Neutral or True Neutral and ideally no Paladin or Paladin-like class so Sacred Exorcist is out.

My main difficulty (ironically) is the permissive DM who has buffed up the sorceror class with some house rules.

1) Sorceror's gain spells known at the same rate as a wizard. (This means both Wizard and Sorceror can cast 3rd level spells at 5th level.)
2) Sorceror's gain bonus feats same as Wizard that can be spent on Heritage/Reserve/Metamagic/Familiar feats.
3) Skill focus (Conc) can be used instead of Combat Casting to qualify for Prc's.
4) Otyuugh Hole: Can be purchased with WBL rules.
5) Fractional BAB is allowed in game.

The first two of those in particular make reading some of the guides that I have found problematic.

I took a stab at making this character myself and came up with the following:

- Sorc 5 / Incantrix 5 / Dragonslayer 1 / Spellsword 1 / Abj Champ 5 for a total BAB of 12, no spell level loss at Level 17.

Note: Not really stuck on those classes or class levels but they were the best that I could think that would fit the concept.

My main sticking point is that ideally I want BAB 16 when I reach level 20. I don't mind giving up a couple of casting progression levels (as long as I don't loose nineth level spells) if it comes to that but I am a bit of at a loss as to how to do it.

Beyond that I have a decent idea as to what Attribs (High Cha, Decent Dex & Con) and spells (Evoc & Abjur) I want to take.

I haven't given that much thought to feats as I wanted to tighten up the class selection first (and the feat requirements for those classes.) so a bit of advice there would be appreciated.

Thanks in advance for any help you can give me. 

[Rebel7284]

You can take Arcane Disciple [War] to pick up Divine Power and persist to always have full BAB.

Alternatively, Complete Champion, page 52 has the domain access Alternate Class feature.  This also gives you the domain granted power.  You may need to adjust it as it references the standard sorcerer progression for the spells you lose.

Alternatively, Sorcerer 5/Swiftblade 9/Spelldancer 1/Abjurant Champion 5 (aka, find a different way to persist)

[phaedrusxy]

You can take Arcane Disciple [War] to pick up Divine Power and persist to always have full BAB.

Alternatively, Complete Champion, page 52 has the domain access Alternate Class feature.  This also gives you the domain granted power.  You may need to adjust it as it references the standard sorcerer progression for the spells you lose.

I came here to suggest this, but see I was beaten to it. BAB is a trap, as Admiral Ackbar might say.

Don't forget about Runestaves. They are indispensable tools for Persistent-based sorcerers.

[SorO_Lost]

BAB is a trap for full casters, and as an Incantatrix, you never need to worry about it.

Instead just Alter Self / Polymorph / Draconic Polymorph / Shapechange up some additional Natural Weapon to swing. Like a Hydra at CL14 means 14 attacks per Standard Action & AoO, or thirteen more than a full BABer, ten more than a full BABer during a Full-Attack, etc. You should also look into Persisting the Bite of Spells, the highest one is 7th level and yields a whopping +16 Enhancement Bonus to Str on top of your chosen monster's base Str and grants both Power Attack and Blind Fighting.

At the 12th level or so, take Extraordinary Spell Aim and Persist a Field of Antimagic. Per the Feat, you're not included in it. So now you're a 14 Headed Hydra with 39 Str that utterly nullifies Spells and Supernatural Abilities of creatures just by standing next to them.

[Rebel7284]

BAB is a trap for full casters, and as an Incantatrix, you never need to worry about it.

Instead just Alter Self / Polymorph / Draconic Polymorph / Shapechange up some additional Natural Weapon to swing. Like a Hydra at CL14 means 14 attacks per Standard Action & AoO, or thirteen more than a full BABer, ten more than a full BABer during a Full-Attack, etc. You should also look into Persisting the Bite of Spells, the highest one is 7th level and yields a whopping +16 Enhancement Bonus to Str on top of your chosen monster's base Str and grants both Power Attack and Blind Fighting.

At the 12th level or so, take Extraordinary Spell Aim and Persist a Field of Antimagic. Per the Feat, you're not included in it. So now you're a 14 Headed Hydra with 39 Str that utterly nullifies Spells and Supernatural Abilities of creatures just by standing next to them.

This is all true. With all of this said, a hydra with 20BAB does hit a bit harder (with that Bite of the Werebear power attack) than a hydra with 10BAB, so the Divine Power is still useful.  If you can get it by trading away a level 1 and 2 spell as per complete champion, I think it's worth it.

Here are some more spells that I think are great on a gish, persistable marked with [P]:

Wraithstrike [P]
Wings of Cover
Ruin Delver's Fortune [P x 3]
Greater Mirror Image [P]
Mirror Move[P] from http://www.wizards.com/dnd/article.asp?x=dnd/sb/sb20000901a is 3.0 but amusing if you hang out with fighters.
Greater Blink [P]

Also, remember that Incantatrix can persist ongoing effects no matter what list they are on.  UMD is your friend.

[Sarethus]

Thanks all you guys and especially Rebel7284.

Sorry it took me so long to respond but I was taking a long look at the feats / ACF's mentioned and even spoke with my DM about it.

Short story I am probably going to go Arcane Disciple [War] and pick up Divine power. Was tempted by Domain Access due to lack of wisdom needed but I don't like loss of spells known if I can help it also am going to pick up the Planar sorceror ACF at level for evocation boost. 

I never even thought of Polymorph but to be honest I just like my Gishie's.

Current build is looking like: Sorc 5 / Incantrix 10 / Dragonslayer 1 / Abj Champ 4.

[SorO_Lost]

This is all true. With all of this said, a hydra with 20BAB does hit a bit harder (with that Bite of the Werebear power attack) than a hydra with 10BAB, so the Divine Power is still useful.

Optimize by Numbers says CR 20 AC is 29. @39 Str (12-headed hydra + bite of the werebear) & 10 BAB you need a 5 to hit which is an 80% chance of success, or 9 attacks out of 12, 175 damage unmodified, 220 damage with a +5 Enhancement, 265 damage with something like Collision, additional bonuses put this into the one shot range. And you mentioned Waithstrike which turns everything into Touch Attacks, or 95% chance of successfully hitting just about any monster.

All numbers help, that they do. But useful is entirely a different story, specially when we're talking such a large expense (arcane disciple consumes a feat and requires wisdom to cast it's spells) when you are already sufficient or have better, more powerful, native options.

@Sarethus, if you are going to use Abjuration Champion. Skip Arcane Disciple and take something more useful. Like Reserves of Strength.

[Rebel7284]

This is all true. With all of this said, a hydra with 20BAB does hit a bit harder (with that Bite of the Werebear power attack) than a hydra with 10BAB, so the Divine Power is still useful.

Optimize by Numbers says CR 20 AC is 29. @39 Str (12-headed hydra + bite of the werebear) & 10 BAB you need a 5 to hit which is an 80% chance of success, or 9 attacks out of 12, 175 damage unmodified, 220 damage with a +5 Enhancement, 265 damage with something like Collision, additional bonuses put this into the one shot range. And you mentioned Waithstrike which turns everything into Touch Attacks, or 95% chance of successfully hitting just about any monster.

All numbers help, that they do. But useful is entirely a different story, specially when we're talking such a large expense (arcane disciple consumes a feat and requires wisdom to cast it's spells) when you are already sufficient or have better, more powerful, native options.

@Sarethus, if you are going to use Abjuration Champion. Skip Arcane Disciple and take something more useful. Like Reserves of Strength.

We are talking about HEADS here, unless you have 12 mouthpick weapons you are carrying around, what +5 Collision?

Edit: actually,  Necklace of Natural Weapons allows for this.  Still would be nice to mention what you are using.

[Nezkrul]

you are better off going Sorc 5 / Incantatrix 10 / Sorc +5 because you will already have full base attack all day from Divine Power.

Suggestion- pick the Competition domain instead of War, it allows you to learn Righteous Might and Greater Visage of the Deity as well as Divine Power (all insane good buffs to use with Instant Metamagic (persistent))

When you have to give up stuff to get something you will already have, buffed, you don't need it.  Namely taking ACF's to get things like martial weapon proficiencies and armor and higher base attack bonuses from more prestiging;  just keep it simple as I suggested, you only need PhB and the Forgotten Realms Player Guide for your 2 classes if you do.

If you have the option to do so, I suggest being a Draconic Human (template is from Races of the Dragon), it is a +1 level adjustment, but you could start the game with the level adjustment "bought off" according to UA buyoff rules.  You get +2 str/con/cha, +1 nat armor, 2 natural claw attacks, and some other racial bonuses, AND [dragonblood] subtype - which allows you to take Practical Metamagic for your metamagic feats later on.  If you can use Dragon Magazines, they also give you the option to take Easy Metamagic (insert metamagic feat) which does the same thing as Practical Metamagic, but only requires 6 ranks in Spellcraft and a metamagic feat to apply it to.

And don't forget about the feat Arcane Thesis - pick a favorite spell, post 6th level, that you want to metamagic the crap out of, and cast it at higher caster level AND all the metamagics will end up being +0 on it - because of the following feat list (for example, I'll use scorching ray)

Feats- flaw-Extend Spell, flaw-Persistent Spell, human-Iron Will, 1st- Eschew Materials, 3rd- Twin Spell, 6th- Arcane Disciple (competition), 6thINC- Easy Metamagic (persistent), 9th- Arcane Thesis (scorching ray), 9thINC- Practical Metamagic (persistent), 12th- Easy Metamagic (twin), 12thINC- Practical Metamagic (twin), 15th-Searing Spell, 15thINC- Empower Spell, 18th- Split Ray

-- Twinned, Split Ray, Empowered, Searing scorching ray (2nd level slot)- 8 rays that deal 4d6+(4d6/2) fire damage ignoring any fire resistance and still dealing half damage to immune targets. If you super focus on this combo, it can get very very sick, especially if you focus on the 4th level spell orb of fire.

Arcane Disciple requires wisdom, yes, so start with a 13 and buy a +6 wisdom item.

Instant Metamagic (persistent spell)- bite of the werebear (7th level slot) and greater visage of the deity (9th level slot)
Cast Persistent Extended wraith strike (7th level slot), divine power (9th level slot) and Persistent greater blink (9th level slot)

hope these ideas help a bit

[Captnq]

Well, I'm getting a mixed message here.

Are you a Gish or a Spellcaster? Because Sorcerer/Incanatrix is a lousy gish base. If your going for gish, why not just gish? If You're gonna be a spellcaster, be a spellcaster.

Did you check out my big list of Spellcasting classes? Maybe that will help.

[phaedrusxy]

Well, I'm getting a mixed message here.

Are you a Gish or a Spellcaster? Because Sorcerer/Incanatrix is a lousy gish base. If your going for gish, why not just gish? If You're gonna be a spellcaster, be a spellcaster.

Unless your DM likes to throw around dead magic zones, a sorcerer/incantatrix can make a fabulous "gish". He just uses buffs to achieve it instead of actual class features (other than the ones that allow him to buff the hell out of himself, and his party...). I think wizard is a better choice, but I can understand the appeal of sorcerer. It's a lot easier to play on a day to day basis, especially if you hate preparing spells as a player.

And the level 3/4 Incantatrix ability (Metamagic Effect? I forget the name) is the one where the money is for buffing. Instant Metamagic is best saved for throwing out things in combat (Split Ray Enervation/etc). The one that lets you apply Metamagic to your friend's spells will also make you very popular at parties (it will let your cleric use his feats on something other than Extend, Persist, DMM: Perist, and a boatload of Extra Turnings). There is absolutely no reason to use higher level spell slots for applying metamagic as Nezkrul is suggesting, if you're an incantatrix... Just buff the hell out of your Spellcraft check, and do it for free.

[Sarethus]

you are better off going Sorc 5 / Incantatrix 10 / Sorc +5 because you will already have full base attack all day from Divine Power.

Suggestion- pick the Competition domain instead of War, it allows you to learn Righteous Might and Greater Visage of the Deity as well as Divine Power (all insane good buffs to use with Instant Metamagic (persistent))

hmm, I've looked at the Competition domain based on your suggestion and it is sweet. Only issue is that I was going to pick Tempus for a diety (Updated initial post with information right now) and he doesn't have that domain but most forums seem to suggest that he should and I'll swing it by my ST. 

When you have to give up stuff to get something you will already have, buffed, you don't need it.  Namely taking ACF's to get things like martial weapon proficiencies and armor and higher base attack bonuses from more prestiging;  just keep it simple as I suggested, you only need PhB and the Forgotten Realms Player Guide for your 2 classes if you do.

Thing is Sorceror even with these house rules is somewhat light on Class features. At most I would be giving up familiar levels and one bonus feat at Level 20. With the Arcane Champion I pick up some nice BAB and class features (although right now I am seriously considering swapping out two levels of Arcane Champion for Dragonslayer and Spellsword.)

To be honest though one of the main reasons I want to have some BAB and Armour proficincies by default is RP (Personal Choice). I feel a bit squirmy playing a Gish if I need to rely on spells all the time. I can and would go without them if I was seriously loosing a lot but so far the loss feels bearable (Familiar and feat as mentioned above.) 

If you have the option to do so, I suggest being a Draconic Human (template is from Races of the Dragon), it is a +1 level adjustment, but you could start the game with the level adjustment "bought off" according to UA buyoff rules.  You get +2 str/con/cha, +1 nat armor, 2 natural claw attacks, and some other racial bonuses, AND [dragonblood] subtype - which allows you to take Practical Metamagic for your metamagic feats later on.  If you can use Dragon Magazines, they also give you the option to take Easy Metamagic (insert metamagic feat) which does the same thing as Practical Metamagic, but only requires 6 ranks in Spellcraft and a metamagic feat to apply it to.

Ironically, the whole point in my choosing human right now is to move away from a few of my comfort zone characters. I generally prefer Elves and Dragon kin races so went human for something different and as the DM veto'd the Githyanki and Psionic classes.

And don't forget about the feat Arcane Thesis - pick a favorite spell, post 6th level, that you want to metamagic the crap out of, and cast it at higher caster level AND all the metamagics will end up being +0 on it - because of the following feat list (for example, I'll use scorching ray)

Feats- flaw-Extend Spell, flaw-Persistent Spell, human-Iron Will, 1st- Eschew Materials, 3rd- Twin Spell, 6th- Arcane Disciple (competition), 6thINC- Easy Metamagic (persistent), 9th- Arcane Thesis (scorching ray), 9thINC- Practical Metamagic (persistent), 12th- Easy Metamagic (twin), 12thINC- Practical Metamagic (twin), 15th-Searing Spell, 15thINC- Empower Spell, 18th- Split Ray

-- Twinned, Split Ray, Empowered, Searing scorching ray (2nd level slot)- 8 rays that deal 4d6+(4d6/2) fire damage ignoring any fire resistance and still dealing half damage to immune targets. If you super focus on this combo, it can get very very sick, especially if you focus on the 4th level spell orb of fire.

I knew about Arcane Thesis but I didn't know about the Searing Spell feat (Another personal thing:  Fire and Lightning are the coolest elements.). You've got me drooling here. Going to definitely consider this route.

Arcane Disciple requires wisdom, yes, so start with a 13 and buy a +6 wisdom item.

Instant Metamagic (persistent spell)- bite of the werebear (7th level slot) and greater visage of the deity (9th level slot)
Cast Persistent Extended wraith strike (7th level slot), divine power (9th level slot) and Persistent greater blink (9th level slot)

hope these ideas help a bit

They help a whole lot. Thanks.

Well, I'm getting a mixed message here.

Are you a Gish or a Spellcaster? Because Sorcerer/Incanatrix is a lousy gish base. If your going for gish, why not just gish? If You're gonna be a spellcaster, be a spellcaster.

Did you check out my big list of Spellcasting classes? Maybe that will help.

What  I am planning is a Spellcaster who progresses into becoming a gish over their adventuring career. Sort of throwing magic around like it was candy at the start and then wising up into being a bit more ready for anything. I am fully confident in my DM's ability to sooner or later make my character not have full access to magic over the course of their career, whether by Dead Magic Zones or just RP restrictions.

Unless your DM likes to throw around dead magic zones, a sorcerer/incantatrix can make a fabulous "gish". He just uses buffs to achieve it instead of actual class features (other than the ones that allow him to buff the hell out of himself, and his party...). I think wizard is a better choice, but I can understand the appeal of sorcerer. It's a lot easier to play on a day to day basis, especially if you hate preparing spells as a player.

I like the sorceror myself and my DM (not to mention group) is being really nice about rounding out a few of the Sorceror's rough edges versus wizards. He did warn me recently though that if he feels the need to tone it down a bit then he would reset the sorceror's spell progression to normal but would allow me enter Prc's as if I was using the Wizards spell progression which I accepted.

And the level 3/4 Incantatrix ability (Metamagic Effect? I forget the name) is the one where the money is for buffing. Instant Metamagic is best saved for throwing out things in combat (Split Ray Enervation/etc). The one that lets you apply Metamagic to your friend's spells will also make you very popular at parties (it will let your cleric use his feats on something other than Extend, Persist, DMM: Perist, and a boatload of Extra Turnings). There is absolutely no reason to use higher level spell slots for applying metamagic as Nezkrul is suggesting, if you're an incantatrix... Just buff the hell out of your Spellcraft check, and do it for free.

 

[Iainuki]

I like the sorceror myself and my DM (not to mention group) is being really nice about rounding out a few of the Sorceror's rough edges versus wizards. He did warn me recently though that if he feels the need to tone it down a bit then he would reset the sorceror's spell progression to normal but would allow me enter Prc's as if I was using the Wizards spell progression which I accepted.

If you give the sorcerer the same spell progression and feats as a wizard, sorcerer is still weaker because prepared casting of many spells is better than spontaneous casting of a handful.  Sorcerers can never match a wizard's problem-solving ability with situational spells and cast off a worse stat.

[phaedrusxy]

I like the sorceror myself and my DM (not to mention group) is being really nice about rounding out a few of the Sorceror's rough edges versus wizards. He did warn me recently though that if he feels the need to tone it down a bit then he would reset the sorceror's spell progression to normal but would allow me enter Prc's as if I was using the Wizards spell progression which I accepted.

If you give the sorcerer the same spell progression and feats as a wizard, sorcerer is still weaker because prepared casting of many spells is better than spontaneous casting of a handful.  Sorcerers can never match a wizard's problem-solving ability with situational spells and cast off a worse stat.

Especially when there are ways for the wizard to have his cake and eat it, too (Uncanny Forethought is the easiest).