Author Topic: Could use some help with character creation(Roguish type character)  (Read 13229 times)

Offline araris

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So a little background on me.... I played D&D and AD&D about 20 years ago.  We had some pretty epic campaigns.  I dabbled with the 4e a few years ago but the DM was terrible and limited everything you could do.  (i.e.  Walk into a town there is a mansion over there and town hall over here.  "I'd like to go check out that mansion."  DM says "Nothing to check on head to the town hall")  Compared to the DMing of when I grew up where nothing was off limits and if you can imagine it, he would on the fly make up something to go along with it. 

Well I've got my DM playing from 20 years ago, and we are embarking on 3.5.  The only thing off limits is Psionics mainly because he doesn't want to take the time to learn about them.  So with all other books open I could use some help with character creation.

First for stats.  We rolled 4d6 re-rolling 1's.  We took our lowest number and rerolled that as well.  if you had 3 2's you rerolled all 3 2's.  And then threw out the lowest die.  We rolled like that for 3 sets of stats.  I ended up with 18, 17, 17, 16, 15, 14.  Which is pretty over powering in my opinion.  But he's the DM so Ill go with the flow.

On top of that I have 3 points to spend where ever I want.  A stat cannot be taken over 18 with these 3 points.  However if a racial modifier takes say the 14 down to 12, I can spend 2 to bring it back to 14 if I'd like.

From what he has said this adventure will be littered with Traps.  And the 4 players will be split off at least initially to do solo "trials" in order to join "The Dogs of War" assassin's guild.  That isn't to say we are needed to roll an assassin, or a rogue.  However some sort of method to circumvent traps is going to be required.

We will be starting out at level 3 with achieving level 4 by the time we finish our "trials".  We will be playing probably to the 12th-15th level area over the next year or so.

The trials will consist of things like puzzles to solve, traps to circumvent, fights say 3-6 1/2 CR in short order.

Multi-classing is allowed.  He removed cross-class skill hits.  So it's 1 to 1 for all skills.

One guy is rolling a rogue/wizard type character.  He is the only one familiar with 3.5 rules to any extent. 

2 guys who have never played D&D in any fashion will be rolling a cleric(or some derivative of cleric) and the other wants to roll some form or ranger or druid.

That leaves me.  I've always enjoyed rangers.  However I need to take on the roll of the group "leader".  And sneaking around shooting arrows isn't going to get that done I don't think.  I also always enjoy 2 weapon fighting.  However from everything I have read that seems like a crap way to go.

Any suggestions on what character builds to look into?  I was looking into Martial Rogue.  However from what I've read that would be counter productive as  weapon fighting seems only viable if you have sneak attack/skirmish to use it with.

I was also considering some variant of Barbarian, if I can find a good guide on how barbarians break traps.  I'm open to pretty much any suggestions.

Thanks.
« Last Edit: October 29, 2013, 04:36:23 PM by araris »

Offline Nunkuruji

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Re: Could use some help with character creation
« Reply #1 on: October 28, 2013, 03:01:18 PM »
Mundane traps can be dealt with via search/spot, and avoiding/wrecking them with a bit of player intelligence.

Magic Traps (that haven't had additional spells used to conceal their magical aura), can be "found" with detect magic. Throw a garbage summon/minion or again avoid/wreck them with a bit of player intelligence.

Offline phaedrusxy

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Re: Could use some help with character creation
« Reply #2 on: October 28, 2013, 03:21:34 PM »
I'll just leave this here...

Quote from: Galahad_Knight06-23-03, 10:22 PM
Most of you will remember the exploits of Log, the Timberrogue from our old boards.

For those who need a refresher I'll give you a briefing before I post his latest exploits.

Our party (Cleric, wizard, paladin, ranger) was about to enter the Return to The Temple of Elemental Evil without a rogue.

We were worried about traps.

Until my Ranger had a brilliant idea: The Timberrogue!

The concept was simple. Cut down a tree a good two or three feet thick. Cut out a five-foot long log from it. Cut hand-holds on the side and cut one end to a point.

Now, take said log and roll it in front of the party down suspect hallways. The log sets off any traps well away from the party. On upward slopes or rough floors you might want to employ a pole to push it with.

When you come to a locked or possibly trapped door you have the burliest party member pick up the lof and give it a good hurl through the door. It should weigh a couple hundred pounds so it'll make short work of the door. Same applies to chests. If you want you could probably pick pockets too...as long you don;t care too much about the victim.

A simple tool, a brilliant plan.

But somehow it has become a member of the party!

We started referring to it as "The Rogue". "The rogue will check for traps in the corridor ahead of us." "The Rogue will unlock the door." etc.

Eventually it got to where my Ranger (who has the 'throw anything' feat) would pick him up and shout "SNEAK ATTACK!" and hurl the errant log towards unsuspecting foes.



At one point our paladin preyed to his god to help him smite an evil cleric. He rolled a 1% so the DM rewarded him by having the log suddenly fly up and smite the cleric on its own. But this broke the log and our party was griefstricken...especially the ranger, cleric and wizard who, not being privy to the prayer, assumed that it was an act of LOG that did that, and not the divine intervention of the paladin's god.

We quickly repaired him, using mending spells and the like. The log had given its life to save us, only to rise again from the proverbial ashes.

The GM was having a blast with it so he ruled that the touch of god made the log a +1 Holy weapon.

Now my Ranger, who now sees himself as a divine deciple of the Log, has the honor of bearing the log into combat. The first round of every combat now begins with my ranger shouting "SNEAK ATTACK!!" Or (depending on my mood or the nature of the targets) "HOLY SMITE!!" and hurling the, now blessed, log into the enemy.

He's getting good at it. Sometimes he can hit two or three people if they're standing close to one another.

Recently we found this creepy evil altar with a creepy multi-sided pillar.

We decided to use the Log to help us deface and purify the altar. So I picked it up and started smashing the pilar. Low and hebold each side contained a (now smashed open) secret compartment "The log found a secret pannel and disarmed the trap" (in other words, the thing was smashed in and the log set the trap off)

We found incense, a prayer bead, a dru and somethng else. Well, we used them and an evil elemental eye dealie appeared over the altar. It inflicted temporary levle loss on a couple party members and paralyzed one. The Paladin, who made his save, took up the Log from my injured Ranger and roared a dedication to his deity as he charged the eye.

He smote the eye with the log and saved the day!
When it was all over the party rushed to the smoking log and the injured paladin (there was an explosion that threw him against the wall) and we took up our fallen comrade and raised him up and declared "The Log has saved us! In Log we Trust!"

The paladin was too injured to join in the log-hoist but once the excitement died down the cleric patched him up and we asked him what it was like to be that near to the log when he performed his miracle.

Well...that's the latest exploit of The Log...those of you who already share in the glory of the log, feel free to re-post your experiences from the old boards over here. Or bring in new ones.

The Internet Cult of theLog shal not die!

So yeah, a ranger or barbarian with a LOGTM, a herd of sheep, and a wand of Detect Magic makes for the most amusing trapspringer imaginable.
« Last Edit: October 28, 2013, 03:39:09 PM by phaedrusxy »
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Offline araris

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Re: Could use some help with character creation
« Reply #3 on: October 28, 2013, 03:53:20 PM »
I was under the impression that only certain classes(with special abilities/feats) could search for traps of DC20 or better?

I get the feeling that ignoring the traps is not going to be an option.  I will either have to trigger them somehow be it by disable device, magic means, or smashing it?  I'm not sure.  But the point is to "beat" the traps as encounters, not skip them.

I will definitely take LOG under consideration.  However I am still curious of class suggestions.  Certain builds that may take me forever to sift through and see anything about? 


I'm through to page 29 of this forum at the moment.  Maybe I will come up with something from there.

Offline awaken_D_M_golem

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Re: Could use some help with character creation
« Reply #4 on: October 28, 2013, 06:51:06 PM »
Yes to 1 of your Q's , Trapfinding is the specific class ability.
http://www.d20srd.org/srd/classes/rogue.htm#trapfinding

Luckily you don't have to be "only" a Rogue.
There is a Ranger acf that gets Trapfinding.
Ranger 1 / Sorc X ... is then a variant on your party ringer (!)
that's playing the Rogue 1 / Wizard X.
Feat Rogue in UA/SRD also works.

The Cleric guy will do fine, the Druid guy will do fine (no Ranger for him).
Your codpiece is a mimic.

Offline Iainuki

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Re: Could use some help with character creation
« Reply #5 on: October 28, 2013, 09:01:30 PM »
As some people have already mentioned, there are a lot of different ways to get trapfinding, especially when you include all classes, ACFs, and spells.  I think barbarian, cleric, ranger, and rogue can all get formal trapfinding, and there are more.  That said, as other people have discussed, there are many many ways to deal with traps that aren't formal trapfinding, though it's the most straightforward method.

Before I start giving suggestions, could you answer two questions?  One, how do you want to kill things?  Two, what kind of out-of-combat role do you want?  You need way to handle traps, obviously.  You mentioned something about "party leader," but what do you mean by that?

Offline dna1

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Re: Could use some help with character creation
« Reply #6 on: October 28, 2013, 09:12:20 PM »
I always liked finding and setting off traps via Summons.
Just summon something and send it/them running down the hall. You can even use a higher summon spell to get multiple lower level creatures.
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Offline muktidata

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Re: Could use some help with character creation
« Reply #7 on: October 28, 2013, 09:14:10 PM »
Google search "Being Bane: A Guide to cracking small men". Its about Barbarians and covers using your biceps to break traps.
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Offline araris

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Re: Could use some help with character creation
« Reply #8 on: October 28, 2013, 09:41:43 PM »
So the group Dynamic has changed a bit.

Fighter
Barbarian(I convinced the guy who wanted to play a ranger it was a bad idea)
Cleric
Wizard

And then Me......

One, how do you want to kill things? 

Well I'm more of the Swashbuckler/TWF Rogue type player if its a viable option.  But From everything I have read TWF sucks.  So that's really what I'm looking for is a class I'd enjoy playing.  I'd prefer to stay away from say a Factotem type character.  I can enjoy any type of character really. 

Two, what kind of out-of-combat role do you want?  You need away to handle traps, obviously.  You mentioned something about "party leader," but what do you mean by that?

Out of combat I will be the front man.  I'll probably handle a lot of the direction of the group.  I tend to glean things more quickly than the others in the group.  And I can read my cousin well(The DM).  So I typically figure out what he has in mind for things before he expects us too.

« Last Edit: October 28, 2013, 10:25:38 PM by araris »

Offline Iainuki

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Re: Could use some help with character creation
« Reply #9 on: October 28, 2013, 10:28:30 PM »

Well I'm more of the Swashbuckler/TWF Rogue type player if its a viable option.  But From everything I have read TWF sucks.  So that's really what I'm looking for is a class I'd enjoy playing.  I'd prefer to stay away from say a Factotem type character.  I can enjoy any type of character really. 


I don't know where you read that, but it's wrong.  TWF requires a source of bonus damage that applies to both weapons equally, but provided you have that, it offers more potential melee and short-ranged damage than most things in the game.  TWF can form the basis of a variety of solid builds, though as always, full casters with combat spells are better.  Given that, is what what you want to play?

Out of combat I will be the front man.  I'll probably handle a lot of the direction of the group.  I tend to glean things more quickly than the others in the group.  And I can read my cousin well(The DM).  So I typically figure out what he has in mind for things before he expects us too.

You can lead the party OOC without having to worry much about what you're doing IC.  There are some considerations, but they're not dominating.

Offline araris

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Re: Could use some help with character creation
« Reply #10 on: October 28, 2013, 10:44:00 PM »
TWF is what I'm going to do.  Looking at the group dynamic I'm thinking rogue is the route I should go.....

With that said.  Are there any recommendations on multi-class set ups or variant classes to look into.  Or is straight rogue the best route?

Offline phaedrusxy

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Re: Could use some help with character creation
« Reply #11 on: October 28, 2013, 11:07:52 PM »
Straight rogue is likely not the best, especially if you want to amp damage. Some kind of multiclass almost always is better. There are lots of good options, and the best rogue builds often "dip" a lot, i.e. take 1-3 levels in a lot of classes and/or focus on one (or more) prestige classes. 3 levels of Swashbuckler can be great (for free weapon finesse + intelligence to damage), as can 2 (or more) levels of swordsage. Ranger for a couple of levels for free TWF (and you get to ignore the prereqs, if you want, but you probably don't) is decent and doesn't hurt the skill points as much as fighter levels.

For example: Rogue 3/Swashbuckler 5/Swordsage 2 (with the Daring Outlaw and Shadow Blade feats)
gets +4d6 Sneak Attack dice (+6d6 while in Assasin's Stance from Swordsage), Str, Int and Dex modifiers to damage. Sink another feat in TWF and get the Gloves of the Balanced Hand for ITWF and change your name to Ginsu. You're also one point ahead on BAB compared to a single classed 10th level rogue (but likely behind in skill points). This is far from the best you could do. It's just what came to mind off the top of my head.
« Last Edit: October 28, 2013, 11:10:52 PM by phaedrusxy »
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Offline muktidata

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Re: Could use some help with character creation
« Reply #12 on: October 29, 2013, 01:49:25 AM »
No, you want to play a Bard. They're great two weapon fighters and great party faces.
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Offline araris

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Re: Could use some help with character creation
« Reply #13 on: October 29, 2013, 08:52:37 AM »
Not interested at all in playing a bard. But thanks.  I'll look into the rogue/swashbuckler builds I can find online.  Though swordsage isn't an available option to me.

Offline phaedrusxy

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Re: Could use some help with character creation
« Reply #14 on: October 29, 2013, 08:59:58 AM »
Not interested at all in playing a bard. But thanks.  I'll look into the rogue/swashbuckler builds I can find online.  Though swordsage isn't an available option to me.
You said everything but psionics was available in your OP. So what else is not available?
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Offline araris

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Re: Could use some help with character creation
« Reply #15 on: October 29, 2013, 10:52:34 AM »
I bought all the Monster Manuals, DMG, and PH1.  However the DM is using those.  So my book access is limited to PDFs I find and such online at the moment and Im not much for scrolling through reading 600 page pdfs.  So for my own simplicity I would like to keep it to the books available in Hero Labs.  Unfortunately those don't seem to include the Tome's needed for Swordsage.  I found a community source that includes:

The regular d20/PH/DM

Advanced Bestiary
Arms and Equipment Guide
Book of Exalted Deeds
Cityscape
Complete Adventurer/Arcane/Champion/Divine/Mage/Scoundrel/Warrior
Drow of the Underdark
Dungeonscape
Finedish Codex II
Frostburn
Heroes of Battle
Libris Mortis
Lords of Madness
Magic Item Compendium
Miniatures Handbook
Monser Manuals 1/2/3/5
PH2
Races of Destiny/Stone/Dragon/Wild
Sandstorm
Spell Compendium
Stormwrack


A couple things to add.  I decided on going Drow.  DM is allowing it without the LA. 

I'm guessing that Martial Rogue is out as I really don't want to lose the SA damage.  How about the Arcane Stunt version of swashbuckler?  Is Grace something I can't leave without as a Swashbuckler build?  I like the flavor that arcane stunt would add to the character.  Of course I could always add a caster level if I wanted, but I think with the stats I have the +1-3 reflex save shouldn't be that big of a deal to lose?

 
**Edit** Ignore the bit about Arcane Stunt.  I see that I'll need the Grace for Daring Outlaw.

« Last Edit: October 29, 2013, 11:19:50 AM by araris »

Offline araris

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Re: Could use some help with character creation
« Reply #16 on: October 29, 2013, 11:49:52 AM »
Are skill tricks worth looking into?

Offline araris

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Re: Could use some help with character creation
« Reply #17 on: October 29, 2013, 01:14:30 PM »
So my first feat is Two-Weapon Fighting. 

Is Telling Blow a good second feat?  Or should I be looking at something to mitigate damage to myself?

Offline Iainuki

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Re: Could use some help with character creation
« Reply #18 on: October 29, 2013, 01:17:04 PM »
From what you've said so far, I'll suggest a couple of things.  First, neither you nor your DM sound like you're interested in learning new subsystems, so stay away from incarnum, TB, TM, etc.  Second, you should mostly stick to rogue.  Rogue is by far the best non-casting class in the core, the only one that can stay relevant (not equal, but relevant) in a party of optimized full casters, and is very hard to improve on even with the ability to take any non-core PrC.  In particular, there are almost no PrCs that give 8 + Int skills for level so multiclassing almost always hits your utility.  There are a variety of dips that can help doing specific things, but rogue 20 is a cromulent build with a lot of advantages.  Third, you don't need social skills (Bluff, Diplomacy, Sense Motive) to lead your party OOC.  The most important IC element of playing party leader is making sure you can communicate with all members of your party, which means languages, things like telepathic connections, and so on.  From what you've said so far, you'll want Search for trapfinding.  Disable Device is useful but not as important because once you've found a trap, there are often ways to trigger or destroy it without using Disable Device directly.  Other than that, you can pick your favorite skills and run with them.

Combat-wise, you're running TWF with sneak attack as your added damage source.  You can choose to emphasize melee or throwing to various extents, but there's not any good reason to limit yourself to one or the other, which means your basic feats are TWF, ITWF, Quick Draw, and Weapon Finesse.  Weapon Finesse is less important than usual because your stats are insane, but it's still probably good to have.  One tactic that works very well for anyone with sneak attack and Quick Draw is tossing flasks of alchemist's fire, acid, or holy water.  They hit as ranged touch attacks and add your sneak attack damage, letting you bypass DR on some monsters, target some elemental weaknesses, and deal good damage at range.  If you focus on throwing, you'd want to pick up Point Blank Shot, Rapid Shot, Precise Shot, Improved Precise Shot, and some non-core feats, which means multiclassing for extra feats.  For melee, you don't really need anything more than the feats I already listed unless you're doing something specific.  Improved Initiative and Leadership are good on everyone.  Gloves of the balanced hand (MIC) replace the need for ITWF, but whether they're worthwhile depends on how hard it is to find specific items, how much money your DM gives you, how easy it is to move the other things you need to other slots, and how much you need the extra feat.  Generally, I'd give gloves of dexterity top priority and a glove of storing only a little less priority over gloves of the balanced hand.  You want a backup bow, a shortbow if you don't pick up martial weapon proficiency somewhere or a longbow if you do.  You'll want a ring of blinking ASAP because it's the easiest way of getting sneak attack at range and has many other excellent benefits.  You'll also want some combination of greater demolition and truedeath weapon augment crystals (MIC 65-66), deathstrike bracers (also MIC 93), wands of golem, grave, and vine strike (SC, CAd), and penetrating strike (Du 13) for handling monsters that are immune to sneak attack; potentially some way of defeating concealment if your DM will use that to prevent you from sneak attacking, probably a crystal mask of visual insight (MIC 92, CP 109) but see also http://www.minmaxboards.com/index.php?topic=10479.0; and ways of negating DR, where carrying +1 weapons of all three different materials and lesser truedeath crystals will cover most of what you need to, but there are also a wide variety of other ways to defeat DR.   If you want to melee, you really want to get a way to move and full-attack in the same round,  Person_Man has a guide at http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=103358.  There is a lot more, but that's probably enough to absorb for now.

Yes, skill tricks are worth looking into.  The ones I favor most in general are Back on Your Feet, Extreme Leap, Nimble Stand, Quick Escape, and Twisted Charge, but others can be useful for specific things.

Offline araris

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Re: Could use some help with character creation
« Reply #19 on: October 29, 2013, 01:50:31 PM »
Not really sure what you mean by the not interested in sub-systems other than Psioncs. 

I'll give your links a read through.  And thanks for the pointers on Feats.  I think I'll be intending on doing quickdraw.  I'll dual wield rapiers and have a hand crossbow that I can pull out if needed as well as a composite short bow.

I believe Ill be getting the Glove of the Balanced Hand to start.  We can each pick a non-weapon/armor piece of gear that is sub 10,000 gold to start.

We will be starting with mastercrafted armor for our class and then whatever weapons we need +2 mastercrafted.  So I should be able to pick up the 2 rapiers and at least 1 kind of ranged weapon, be it daggers for throwing or a hand crossbow or something.

Ill definitely put the ring of blinking on my wish list.  He may add that as treasure at some point. 



Thanks for all the great info so far.