Author Topic: Could use some help with character creation(Roguish type character)  (Read 13234 times)

Offline Jackinthegreen

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Re: Could use some help with character creation
« Reply #20 on: October 29, 2013, 02:14:55 PM »
How accessible will magic items be for you?  If you're playing a rogue you'll need ways to bypass crit immunity on stuff.  Iainuki listed the items for that, but if you can't count on getting some of those items then you're likely out of luck as far as SA immune stuff, if your DM will be running those.  As the CRs get higher you're more likely to run into SA immune things.

You might be able to ask your DM about letting Arcane Stunt work in place of Grace for Daring Outlaw.  Grace is quite a crappy class feature on its own (+3 to just reflex saves over 20 levels is BS, plus it being a Competence bonus means it gets overwritten by some buffs) but Arcane Stunt is definitely a fun ability that would work well for a character with more of a magical bent.  Rogue has Use Magic Device on its skill list, so playing that up could work quite well for you.

You might want to look at http://www.minmaxboards.com/index.php?topic=8732.0 to see some ACFs that could work for you.  In particular there's the drow fighter ACF from Drow of the Underdark that trades heavy armor and tower shield proficiencies for +2 initiative and dex to damage against flat-footed targets.  Dungeonscape has a rogue ACF that trades Trap Sense for Penetrating Strike, which lets you deal half damage to stuff immune to SA damage as long as you're flanking it.  Note that some creatures can't be flanked normally, so the Darkstalker feat might be needed to counter things that have All-Around Vision.

Telling Blow might be useful, but since it requires a crit you really can't depend on it unless you're optimizing for crits, and optimizing for crits will leave you lacking in other areas.  Also note that it might actually be useless because if something's immune to SA damage then it's likely immune to crits too, and the feat is ambiguous on whether it even works against stuff immune to crits.  I don't recommend getting it.

You could probably go Rogue 1 (for 4x skills at 1st level)/Drow Fighter 1/ Swashbuckler 3/ Rogue+X and be effective.  Use Magic Device can get you good use out of a wand of Distract Assailant, assuming of course that the DM uses the rule where using a wand is the same action as casting the spell itself.

By the way, don't try DW rapiers.  You'll have a penalty to hit with that because rapiers aren't light weapons as per the TWF rules.  You'll get better average damage out of swapping down to a kukri or short sword than using a rapier in your off hand.  Taking the Oversized TWF feat would counter that, but all you'd effectively be doing is getting a piddly 1 extra damage average, so it's not worth it.
« Last Edit: October 29, 2013, 02:19:54 PM by Jackinthegreen »

Offline araris

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Re: Could use some help with character creation
« Reply #21 on: October 29, 2013, 02:42:23 PM »
I'm going to work through and see if I can set up a viable 10 level build using Martial Rogue and Arcane Stunt for the Swashbuckler.  That should allow me enough feats to pick up some ranged ones as well.  It will get rid of the reliance on SA, because knowing the DM there will be plenty once we hit lvl 6+ that are immune to SA.

Offline araris

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Re: Could use some help with character creation
« Reply #22 on: October 29, 2013, 02:45:39 PM »
As for Magic Items.  In reality Ill be giving him a list of shit that I think my character will use.  He will as he sees fit either make them available in towns for purchase, the group wizard if he has the ability can make the item, it maybe treasure/loot, or he could say keep looking you may come across it lol. 


Offline Jackinthegreen

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Re: Could use some help with character creation
« Reply #23 on: October 29, 2013, 03:12:13 PM »
If you're going martial rogue you might ask your DM if the Daring Warrior feat might work, using rogue levels in place of fighter levels and such.  The Melee Weapon Mastery feat is much nicer than Greater Weapon Focus/Specialization.

Note that martial rogue is thought of as better than regular rogue since feats are more valuable/flexible than SA.  Getting the Shock Trooper feat is pretty good for damage especially when combined with Leap Attack and other PA boosters.

Offline araris

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Re: Could use some help with character creation
« Reply #24 on: October 29, 2013, 04:31:13 PM »
So he won't let the Daring Warrior feat slide. 

So with that in mind would it be better to multi the Martial Rogue with something else?  Lose Swashbuckler.  Pick up Over-sized Two Weapon Fighting?

Mix the Martial Rogue with say Barbarian for rage?  Or ?

Nothing is really set in stone other than I'd like to stick with some rogue abilities and use TWF if it's going to be beneficial to the group.  If it's better to do Martial Rogue 1 level and go full on fighter, or ranger or something after that I am open to the idea. 

« Last Edit: October 29, 2013, 04:33:09 PM by araris »

Offline araris

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Re: Could use some help with character creation(Roguish type character)
« Reply #25 on: October 29, 2013, 06:47:18 PM »
Does the Dread Pirate prestige have any value? I will be starting out with a boat as apparently we need one and the DM decided I'd have the boat while the other guys will have houses/keeps in various towns.

Offline muktidata

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Re: Could use some help with character creation(Roguish type character)
« Reply #26 on: October 29, 2013, 10:26:25 PM »
Honestly, another Rogue-like character that would work really well as the face of a party is the Beguiler class from the Player's Handbook 2. If you'd like to learn more about the class, check out The Beguiler Handbook. If you're going to be a Rogue, the only decisions you really have to make are equipment, race, alternate class features, skills, and feats. Here's some links:

General:
- A really simple post about Rogues covers the absolute cores of being a Rogue.
- The Rogue Handbook: A Fistful of d6 is a great place to start. You'll get your meat and potatoes here.

Items:
- Shax's Indispensible Haversack covers a lot of great utility items. Something a Rogue will be very interested in.
- Bunko's Bargain Basement has some other useful items.

Misc.:
- Dipping Cleric 1 is as useful for a Rogue as anyone.
- Precision-based Playstyles - How to make your fistful of d6's count, everytime might have some relevant tips.
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Offline Jackinthegreen

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Re: Could use some help with character creation(Roguish type character)
« Reply #27 on: October 30, 2013, 12:22:17 AM »
Don't even think about taking Oversized TWF.  Going up from a light weapon to a 1h weapon is usually only an average damage increase of 1.  Not even Weapon Specialization is that bad.  Note that it doesn't let you take the off-hand's 1/2x strength mod to damage and up it to 1x. Here's the reference for off-hand attacks only adding 1/2x strength to damage.  If it did, then it'd be worth it.

That's actually one of the "balancing" factors for TWF versus 2h weapons.  2h weapons get 1.5x strength mod to damage, while TWF has 1x and .5x, which adds up to 1.5x.  However, the Exotic Weapon Master PrC ups the damage from strength to 2x for certain weapons, so a PrC might be in order to get a TWF build's off hand up to 1x.  Alternately a sufficiently "intensive" feat chain might do it.

Note to self: Homebrew PrC that actually uses Oversized TWF and allows for 1x strength on the off hand.


Besides the links Muktidata posted, I have this one to share: http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=187851

Offline muktidata

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Re: Could use some help with character creation(Roguish type character)
« Reply #28 on: October 30, 2013, 12:41:03 AM »
Yeah, I started to link that but I couldn't figure out what to type in Google to make it come up on the first try and was thus demotivated to search for it.  :P
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Offline Jackinthegreen

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Re: Could use some help with character creation(Roguish type character)
« Reply #29 on: October 30, 2013, 12:44:16 AM »
I googled for "giant in the playground flight" and got it.

Offline Iainuki

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Re: Could use some help with character creation
« Reply #30 on: October 30, 2013, 10:50:31 AM »
I'm going to work through and see if I can set up a viable 10 level build using Martial Rogue and Arcane Stunt for the Swashbuckler.  That should allow me enough feats to pick up some ranged ones as well.  It will get rid of the reliance on SA, because knowing the DM there will be plenty once we hit lvl 6+ that are immune to SA.

What are you going to replace sneak attack with for damage?  It is very difficult to get enough damage to be relevant, and sneak attack is one of the best ways, especially to get damage that applies to both weapons.  There are some others, but they all require casting, new mechanics, don't work well with TWF, or some combination of the three: charging requires pounce, Power Attack, Leap Attack, Shock Trooper, and a two-handed weapon.  I suspect it would be better to focus on ways to avoid sneak attack immunity.

So with that in mind would it be better to multi the Martial Rogue with something else?  Lose Swashbuckler.  Pick up Over-sized Two Weapon Fighting?

Mix the Martial Rogue with say Barbarian for rage?  Or ?

Nothing is really set in stone other than I'd like to stick with some rogue abilities and use TWF if it's going to be beneficial to the group.  If it's better to do Martial Rogue 1 level and go full on fighter, or ranger or something after that I am open to the idea.

What are you going to do with the feats from martial rogue?  Again, where is your damage coming from if you give up sneak attack?

Barbarian is a good dip for many melee characters, especially with ACFs.  A 2-level ranger dip for TWF and a swashbuckler dip for Weapon Finesse are also plausible, but what feats do you want that makes the dip worthwhile?

Keep in mind that a 3-level swashbuckler dip with Daring Outlaw is not a very effective use of class levels.  Compared to taking three levels of rogue and not spending the feat, you go down skill points because swashbuckler only gets 4 + Int and delay the rogue specials, all for +Int to damage and being sometimes 1 ahead on BAB.  Even with your ridiculous stats, you're not going to get more than +3 to damage and the opportunity to spend 4k and a body slot later to get +1 more, then 12k, then 20k.  You have to have massive amounts of money before buying Int items for damage becomes efficient, and the only other thing they'll do for you are boost a couple of skills.  Compare Weapon Specialization, which gives +2 damage and sucks.

Does the Dread Pirate prestige have any value? I will be starting out with a boat as apparently we need one and the DM decided I'd have the boat while the other guys will have houses/keeps in various towns.

It does but not for your concept.  The good ability that dread pirate gets is the honorable version's rally the crew, and you want inspire courage before you go into dread pirate if you're going that direction.  Dishonorable dread pirate is a trap.

Don't even think about taking Oversized TWF.  Going up from a light weapon to a 1h weapon is usually only an average damage increase of 1.  Not even Weapon Specialization is that bad.  Note that it doesn't let you take the off-hand's 1/2x strength mod to damage and up it to 1x. Here's the reference for off-hand attacks only adding 1/2x strength to damage.  If it did, then it'd be worth it.

That's actually one of the "balancing" factors for TWF versus 2h weapons.  2h weapons get 1.5x strength mod to damage, while TWF has 1x and .5x, which adds up to 1.5x.  However, the Exotic Weapon Master PrC ups the damage from strength to 2x for certain weapons, so a PrC might be in order to get a TWF build's off hand up to 1x.  Alternately a sufficiently "intensive" feat chain might do it.

Like Jackingreen said, Oversized TWF is not good.  The only reason ever to take it is for Power Attack, but if you're doing that, why not just use a two-handed weapon in the first place?

Exotic weapon master's uncanny blow only works with an exotic one-handed weapon you hold in two hands, so it doesn't apply here.

Offline Jackinthegreen

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Re: Could use some help with character creation
« Reply #31 on: October 30, 2013, 11:17:28 AM »
Exotic weapon master's uncanny blow only works with an exotic one-handed weapon you hold in two hands, so it doesn't apply here.

A bit of clarification: I specifically mentioned wielding a 2h weapon and its 1.5x strength to damage before talking about EWM since the Uncanny Blow ability is indeed with a weapon wielded two-handed.

As far as the build goes, keep in mind TWF also means paying for two weapons instead of one.  Weapons are among the most expensive pieces of standard equipment, so needing to pay for two of them to be as effective as someone with only one weapon kinda sucks.

Offline Kasz

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Re: Could use some help with character creation(Roguish type character)
« Reply #32 on: October 30, 2013, 01:02:33 PM »
Forgive me for an off the beaten path suggestion, One good "rogue-like" option is the "Kobold Domain" on a Cleric or even better, a Cloistered Cleric.

Quote
Kobold Domain

Deities: Kurtulmak.

Granted Power: You can use the Search skill to locate traps when the task has a Difficulty Class higher than 20. You can use the Disable Device skill to disarm magic traps. A cleric with the Kobold domain who beats a trap's DC by 10 or more with a Disable Device check can study a trap, figure out how it works, and bypass it (with their party) without disarming it.

Add Disable Device and Search to your list of cleric class skills.

Kobold Domain Spells

1 Create Trap: Creates a CR 1 trap.
2 Gnome Blight: Cloud of itchy debilitating pollen sickens living creatures.
3 Fire Trap(M): Opened object deals 1d4 damage +1/level.
4 Stone Sphere: 5-ft. diameter stone sphere rolls over your enemies.
5 Transmute Rock to Mud: Transforms two 10-ft. cubes per level.
6 Contingency(F): Sets trigger condition for another spell.
7 Ironguard(F): Subject becomes immune to all metal.
8 Maze: Traps subject in extradimensional maze.
9 Transmute Rock to Lava: Transforms one 10-ft. cube with subsequent fire damage and effects.

Some excellent spells along with trapfinding and the essential class skills.

Only downside is you probably need to be a Kobold, which isn't really a downside at all. I don't recommend abusing Dragonwrought for the extra mental stats...but +3 Wis doesn't hurt for spellcasting and +3 int doesn't hurt for skills.

Upside is you get to be a Kobold, If you're a cloistered cleric you have all the skillpoints and you can use knowledge and lore checks to support the party. Get yourself some Divine metamagic and Cleric it up.

Offline muktidata

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Re: Could use some help with character creation(Roguish type character)
« Reply #33 on: October 30, 2013, 04:42:45 PM »
I keep focusing on the party leader part of your request. It seems like some combination of Marshal/Paladin/Legendary Leader is what you're describing there. Harmonious Knight is good if you're a Dwarf (Dream Dwarf preferred). Draconic Aura is okay if you're dragon-blooded. But this way you could take Leadership at 6 and get a whole crew of Rogues to run your ship and maybe drag some around adventuring, play your strong leader-type, fight in melee, and still sneak attack (with your cohorts). It's a long-term plan as you can't get into Legendary Leader until level 7, but Paladin all the way to 5 is okay to pick up the Divine Spirit alternate class feature from Dungeonscape and Marshal 2 will give you two auras or Marshal 1/Cleric 1 can give you a variety of benefits. Between those, paladin's aura of courage, and whatever else you pick up (Draconic Aura), you can be a hero most would be happy to rally around!

You have good enough stats to pull something like that off - a character that relies on a lot of different stats. If you started out Paladin 2/Marshal 1, you could just use mundane attempts to disarm traps and likely take their effects with relative ease having your Charisma to saving throws and another +2 from being a Dwarf vs the magical traps and good hp. You'd only miss 1 point of base attack bonus, have great fort saves, charisma applied to saves and other things (depending on your aura choice), immunity to fear, 3 auras, good hp, access to heavy armor/martial weapons, a good lead-in to Dread Pirate (later on), Inspire Courage Paladin Level/Day, and would really have enough leeway feat-wise to take Two Weapon Fighting if you felt like it. The Marshal has an aura that allows allies to apply your Charisma bonus to damage against opponents they are flanking - a good pickup that benefits your whole team and compliments TWF!
« Last Edit: October 30, 2013, 05:47:02 PM by muktidata »
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Offline Jalle

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Re: Could use some help with character creation(Roguish type character)
« Reply #34 on: October 31, 2013, 02:44:22 PM »
Not really sure what you mean by the not interested in sub-systems other than Psioncs.

When suggested to new material you just say that you can't check up on it instead of just getting the book (every official book in PDF is easily downloaded) and check out what people suggest. The sole reason someone in your situation post a post like yours in a place like this is to get fed with all the good options WITHOUT reading those hundred of pages, right?

When that being said you really miss out when playing a melee class without any material adept class ('Tome of Battle'-classes). You'll find NO OTHER book than Tome of Battle that does a better job at trying to minimize the power difference between non-caster and caster classes, while even making the physical classes A LOT more fun to play because of alle the posibilities your character suddenly has. What I mean with these posibilities is the "maneuvers" every ToB classes get. They are basically abilities they can pull of, in and outside of combat, that works much like spells, but instead they are different attacks and defenses, that you actively set in motion as player (like you would a spell). Screw all other books for now and try checking it out!

But if you really want to play a character without ToB and have alot of skills you should probably go something like straight rouge with a few levels of Swashbuckler so you at least get weapon finesse without spending a feat. If you decide you don’t care much for utility skills after all you should only pick one level in rogue and then level up in Swashbuckler (getting full BAB) the rest of your levels, while picking up the Daring outlaw feat, which was mentioned earlier, as it stacks your rogue and Swashbuckler levels for determining sneak attack dice and grace bonus.

I also highly suggest picking up the feat Craven from Champions of Ruin, which let's you add your character level to sneak attack damage. That’s a pretty huge bonus (in fact it is the feat that offers the single highest SA damage boost). You could also look into maiming strike feat for higher level play. It let's you trade 2d6 of your sneak attack dice to deal 1 charisma damage instead. On a full round attack with 6d6 SA dice and lets say 4 attacks this bad boy can strike your foe for a 12 charisma penalty (15 if hasted) if every attack hits. Every round! That will drop any Big bad guy in one round probably (maybe two) even with a miss or two, no matter his total HP. And for high level play HP on monsters is massive compared to their CHA. Just take a look at the Tarrasque: 858 HP but 12 CHA (yummie...). My DM has never allowed me to pick this feat, sadly! 

As I final comment I really want to do yourself a favour and look into Tome of Battle! There are maneuvers accessible to you with just a single dip in the class Swordsage that sets you up for full round attack sneak attacks, by either granting you greater invisibility for your round or conjouring a small fire elemental that serves to flank for you for a round. All this combined with forfil the pre.req for that sweet ”Shadow Blade” feat (I mean dex to damage (NON precision damage!!!) is an amazing damage boost). With a 2 level dip you can also pick up ”assassin’s stance” that just adds two d6 to your sneak attacks permanently with no activation.
Come on don’t pass that up!
« Last Edit: October 31, 2013, 02:49:15 PM by Jalle »

Offline Foo123

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Re: Could use some help with character creation(Roguish type character)
« Reply #35 on: November 02, 2013, 12:02:53 PM »
Rogue 3/Swashbuckler 17 with Daring Outlaw (CS) is pretty good.  If you're playing it from level 3 you may want to go Rogue 1 / Swashbuckler 1 / Rogue +2 / Swashbuckler +16, so that you get the first level skill point bonus of Rogue, but then get Weapon Finesse as a bonus feat right away.  Go TWF and of course take Daring Outlaw as soon as you can (level 6). 

Your next priority is being able to get sneak attack damage on undead, constructs, and other stuff normally immune. Iainuki already posted some really good advice on that front:
You'll also want some combination of greater demolition and truedeath weapon augment crystals (MIC 65-66), deathstrike bracers (also MIC 93), wands of golem, grave, and vine strike (SC, CAd), and penetrating strike (Du 13) for handling monsters that are immune to sneak attack; potentially some way of defeating concealment if your DM will use that to prevent you from sneak attacking, probably a crystal mask of visual insight (MIC 92, CP 109)
I think the Penetrating Strike ACF is really worth trading Trap Sense (not Trapfinding) for.

Offline araris

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Re: Could use some help with character creation(Roguish type character)
« Reply #36 on: November 13, 2013, 12:24:54 PM »
Thanks for all the advice. 

I've decided on doing a rogue 2/Swashbuckler 3/Dread Pirate/Scarlet Corsair mix.

So my question now becomes.  Do I take an additional level of rogue to get the SA dice for Daring Outlaw first, or do I want until level 8 when I can get it from a third level of Dread Pirate?


As a precursor I won't be taking the Two Weapon Fighting Feat until I get it by default with Dread Pirate.  I will be using the Gloves on Balanced Hands or whatever it is until then for it.  Starting out Ill have a +2 Keen Rapier and my offhand will switch between a +2 hand crossbow and a +2 dagger(or other weapon if someone can suggest a better option)
« Last Edit: November 13, 2013, 12:31:16 PM by araris »

Offline Iainuki

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Re: Could use some help with character creation(Roguish type character)
« Reply #37 on: November 15, 2013, 10:14:50 AM »
So my question now becomes.  Do I take an additional level of rogue to get the SA dice for Daring Outlaw first, or do I want until level 8 when I can get it from a third level of Dread Pirate?

Take the 3rd level of rogue, especially if your DM will let you trade trap sense for something (anything) useful.  Penetrating strike is the best option, but most other ACFs are better than trap sense.  There's no reason to forgo sneak attack advancement until level 9, you'll do far too little damage for all the levels in between with only insightful strike and +1d6 sneak attack.